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Jesus.defender
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On 7/12/2018 at 5:31 AM, Gone Away said:
Probably most of us would have exclaimed similarly if in Thomas's position, but maybe not just for the reason you have cited , more in the spirit of 1Cor.13:4! John's account would not present contradictory material when he stated the purpose of his writing at John 20:31.
Same argument as that which applies to Acts 28:6
A curious conclusion drawn here, but at odds with Hebrews 13:2.
Presumably Heb 1:7 which quotes from Ps.45:6. This Psalm is extolling the virtues of a king ruling with the favour of God, thus "God hath blessed thee forever" v 2.
The rather clumsy rendition of Ps.45:6 has been discussed at length for decades, not least due to the difficulties in addressing a king ruling with God's approval as God Himself. The matter is simply resolved when comparing scriptural passages relating to the throne of God-appointed kingship. Solomon for example, was said to be seated on "Jehovah's throne" 1Chr.29:23. With Jehovah designated as the "King of Eternity" at Revelation 15:3, His throne alone certainly lasts for ever and ever. Gods sovereignty then provides authorisation for any ruler representing this sovereignty and is the only foundation for successful rule of any duration, such duration in the hands of Solomon being only temporary, but nevertheless successful when based firmly on the throne of Jehovah.
Let your argument be with the scholars who have suggested suitable renditions of the verse in indicating that the success of the king in question is due to his throne being supported by God:
Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever.--This is the rendering of the LXX., Vulg., and of the versions generally. But whether they supposed the words to be addressed to the Divine Being, or that the theocratic king is thus styled, is uncertain. The Christian use of the verse as applied to the Messiah (Hebrews 1:8, Note, New Testament Commentary) does not help us to explain how the monarch, who is the poet's theme here, could be addressed as God. The use of Elohim in Psalm 82:6; Psalm 97:7, Exodus 22:28, hardly offers a satisfactory parallel, and even 1Samuel 28:13 (where we should render, "I saw a god, &c) hardly prepares us to find such an emphatic ascription to an earthly king, especially in an Elohistic psalm. Two alternative renderings present themselves--(1) Thy throne of God is for ever . . . i.e., thy divine throne. (Comp. Psalm 31:2, "thy refuge of strength.") (2) Thy throne is of God for ever, which is grammatically preferable, and with which may be compared 1Chronicles 29:23, "the throne of the Lord." Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
“The LXX. admits of two renderings: [ho the·osʹ] can be taken as a vocative in both cases (Thy throne, O God, . . . therefore, O God, Thy God . . . ) or it can be taken as the subject (or the predicate) in the first case (God is Thy throne, or Thy throne is God . . . ), and in apposition to [ho the·osʹ sou] in the second case (Therefore God, even Thy God . . . ). . . . It is scarcely possible that [’Elo·himʹ] in the original can be addressed to the king. The presumption therefore is against the belief that [ho the·osʹ] is a vocative in the LXX. Thus on the whole it seems best to adopt in the first clause the rendering: God is Thy throne (or, Thy throne is God), that is ‘Thy kingdom is founded upon God, the immovable Rock.’”—The Epistle to the Hebrews (London, 1889), pp. 25, 26. B.F.Westcott.
The NWT has rendered these verses accordingly:
- "God is your throne forever and ever" Ps 45:6
- "But about the Son, he says: “God is your throne forever and ever," Heb 1:8
Some other translators appear to agree as far as the Psalm is concerned:
Ps 45:6:
Good News Translation
"The kingdom that God has given you will last forever and ever."JPS Tanakh 1917
"Thy throne given of God is for ever and ever;"Interestingly, how do you harmonise your view with 1Cor.15:28?
You really have no idea of the Bible, do you?
"Probably most of us would have exclaimed similarly if in Thomas's position, but maybe not just for the reason you have cited , more in the spirit of 1Cor.13:4! John's account would not present contradictory material when he stated the purpose of his writing at John 20:31."
IF what thomas said WAS an exclamation of shock, he blasphemed and the penalty was stoning to death on the spot.
Just Jesus pick up stones?
NO, He CONGRATULATED and AGREED with thomas!
HAHA. Your first attempt to answer totally FAILS at the first hurdle!
STOP LISTENING TO THE WATCHTOWER.
THEY ARE A COMPLETELY SATANIC CULT
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On 7/12/2018 at 5:40 AM, Gone Away said:
No need.
JWs role is to testify that it has been removed, restore it where possible, and leave the indictment, trial, judging, and execution of sanctions to the Judge of all the earth and the man that he has appointed.
HAHAHA.
ANY cult can play THAT game!What a disgusting, deceitful organisation! Cannot back up ANYTHING they say!
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On 7/12/2018 at 6:56 AM, sami said:
Hebrews 1:1-9 "Long ago God spoke to our forefathers by means of the prophets on many occasions and in many ways. 2 Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of a Son,"(C)
corresponding texts: Matthew 17:5 " While he was still speaking, look! a bright cloud overshadowed them, and look! a voice out of the cloud said: “This is my (J) Son(C), the beloved, whom I have approved. Listen to him.”whom he appointed heir of all things,
corresponding texts: Psalms 2:8 "Ask of me,(J) and I will give nations as your inheritance And the ends of the earth as your (C) possession".
"and through whom he made the systems of things".
corresponding texts: Colossians 1:15,16 "He is the image of the invisible God (J), the firstborn of all creation" because by means of him (C) all other (than himself) things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him.
3 "He is the reflection of God’s glory and the exact representation of his very being",
corresponding texts:John 1:14 So the Word (C) became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son(C) from a father;(J) and he was full of divine favor and truth.
John 17:5 So now, Father (J), glorify me(C) at your side with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.
"and he sustains all things by the word of his power. And after he had made a purification for our sins,"
corresponding texts: Hebrews 9:26 " Otherwise, he(C) would have to suffer often from the founding of the world. But now he(C) has manifested himself once for all time at the conclusion of the systems of things to do away with sin through the sacrifice of himself.(C)
"he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high".
corresponding texts: Psalm 110:1 "Jehovah declared to my Lord: “Sit at my(J) right hand Until I place your(C) enemies as a stool for your feet.”
Acts 2:32, 33 "God (J) resurrected this Jesus, and of this we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore, because he(C) was exalted to the right hand of God and received the promised holy spirit from the Father(J), he has poured out what you see and hear."Acts 7:55 "But he, being full of holy spirit, gazed into heaven and caught sight of God’s glory and of Jesus standing at God’s right hand."
4 So he has become better than the angelscorresponding texts: Ephesians 1:20, 21 which he (J) exercised toward Christ when he (J) raised him (C) up from the dead and seated him (C) at his (J) right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above every government and authority and power and lordship and every name that is named, not only in this system of things but also in that to come.
1 Peter 3:22 He (C) is at God’s (J) right hand, for he (C) went to heaven, and angels and authorities and powers were made subject to him (C).
"to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs."corresponding text: Philippians 2:9, 10 "For this very reason, God (J) exalted him (C) to a superior position and kindly gave him (C) the name that is above every other name, 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground"
(HOW COULD "HO THEOS" (ALMIGHTY GOD) BE RAISED TO A HIGHER POSITION THAN HE ALREADY HOLDS?)6. For example, to which one of the angels did God ever say: “You are my son; today I have become your father”?
corresponding text:Psalms 2:7 Let me proclaim the decree of Jehovah; He said to me: (C))“You are my son; Today I (J)) have become your father.
And again: “I will become his father, and he will become my son”?
corresponding text: Mark 1:11 And a voice came out of the heavens: “You (C) are my Son, the beloved; I (J) have approved you.”
Luke 9:35 Then a voice came out of the cloud, saying: “This is my (J) Son, (C) the one who has been chosen. Listen to him.”
2 Peter 1:17 For he (C) received from God the Father (J) honor and glory when words such as these were conveyed to him (C) by the magnificent glory: “This is my Son, my beloved, whom I (J) myself have approved.”6 "But when he again brings his Firstborn"
corresponding text: John 1:14 "So the Word (C) became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his (C) glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son (C) from a father(Jehovah); and he (C) was full of divine favor and truth".
Romans 8:29 "because those whom he (J) gave his first recognition he (J) also foreordained to be patterned after the image of his Son,(C) so that he(C) might be the firstborn among many brothers".
Colossians 1:15 "He (C) is the image of the invisible God, (J) the firstborn of all creation;""into the inhabited earth, he says: “And let all of God’s angels do obeisance to him.” 7 Also, he says about the angels: “He makes his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire"
corresponding text: Psalm 91:11 For he (J) will give his angels a command concerning you,(C) To guard you in all your ways.
Luke 22:43 Then an angel from heaven appeared to him (C) and strengthened him.8 "But about the Son, he says: “God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness. 9 You loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you with the oil of exultation more than your companions.”
corresponding texts: Matthew 28:18 Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me (Christ) in heaven and on the earth.
Revelation 3:21 To the one who conquers I (C) will grant to sit down with me on my throne, just as I (C) conquered and sat down with my Father (J) on his throne.It is quite clear that throughout the entire context from Hebrews 1:1, Christ is seen to be a lesser god than his Father. Therefore, the use of “theos” here should be translated “god.”
The context must determine whether Christ is being referred to as the Supreme Being or a man with great authority, so reading it carefully is a must. However, in this case one need not read very far to find that Christ, called “god,” HIMSELF HAS a “God.” The very next verse, Hebrews 1:9, makes this crystal clear, verse 9 states:“therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions.” Therefore, Christ cannot be the supreme God, because the supreme God does not have a God. Furthermore, Christ’s God “set” him above others and “anointed” him. This makes it abundantly clear that the use of theos here in Hebrews is not referring to Christ being the supreme God, but rather a man with great authority under another God.
Andrews Norton writes:
Here the context proves that the word “God” does not denote the Supreme Being, but is used in an inferior sense. This is admitted by some of the most respectable Trinitarian critics. Thus, the Rev. Dr. Mayer remarks: “Here the Son is addressed by the title God: but the context shows that it is an official title which designates him as a king: he has a kingdom, a throne and a scepter; and in verse 9 he is compared with other kings, who are called his fellows; but God can have no fellows. As the Son, therefore, he is classed with the kings of the earth, and his superiority over them consists in this, that he is anointed with the oil of gladness above them; inasmuch as their thrones are temporary, but his shall be everlasting.”
The verse is a direct quotation of Psalm 45:6,7. The Jews read this verse for centuries and, knowing the flexibility of the word “God,” never concluded that the Messiah would somehow be part of a Triune God.
Psalm 45:6, 7 "God is your throne forever and ever; The scepter of your kingdom is a scepter of uprightness. 7 You loved righteousness, and you hated wickedness. That is why God, YOUR God, has anointed you with the oil of exultation more than your companions."
To be noted, the verse in the Greek text can also be translated as, “Thy throne is God.” However, because the verse is a reference from the Old Testament, and because the texts indicate and we believe that Jehovah God is the Father, the supreme deity of the universe, is calling His Christ a “god” (i.e., one with divine authority), there is no need to translate the verse other than, “Thy throne, O god, is forever.”
*Berean Study Bible
You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God,(J) Your (C) God, has placed You above Your companions by anointing You with the oil of joy.”*Contemporary English Version
You loved justice and hated evil, and so I, (J) your (C) God, have chosen you. I appointed you and made you happier than any of your friends."
*NET Bible
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness. So God, your God, has anointed you over your companions with the oil of rejoicing."
*GOD'S WORD® Translation
You have loved what is right and hated what is wrong. That is why God, your God, anointed you, rather than your companions, with the oil of joy."New American Standard 1977
“THOU HAST LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, THY GOD, HATH ANOINTED THEE WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE THY COMPANIONS.”American King James Version
You have loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellows.Douay-Rheims Bible
Thou hast loved justice, and hated iniquity: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.World English Bible
You have loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellows."**thy God.
Psalm 89:26 He (Christ) shall cry to me(J), You (J) are my father my God, and the rock of my (C) salvation.John 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to me, for I (C) have not yet ascended to the Father (J); but go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my (C)Father and your Father, to my (C) God and your God.’”…
2 Corinthians 11:31 The God (J) and Father of the Lord Jesus, who is forever worthy of praise, knows that I am not lying
Ephesians 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms".
1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By His great mercy, He has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
**One other point is that in Isaiah 9:6 a prophecy regarding Mashiach and the titles applied to him. In this prophecy he is referred to as mighty god ʼEl Gibbohrʹ NOT ʼEl Shaddaiʹ which is [God Almighty or Almighty God], which is applied to Jehovah God at Genesis 17:1.
The Bible must be in harmony from Genesis through Revelation, you cannot take one text and say this is what the Bible teaches when there are fifty texts to contradict it. Is it in harmony with the rest of scripture, that is the question.To address another misconception regarding Jesus Christ...the apostle Peter tells us "...He (Christ) was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit. ...." What is this text saying? If Jesus is also Jehovah, who resurrected him? How could he then glorify himself and seat himself along side himself with the glory he had alongside himself before?
The apostle John tells us "I (Christ) have glorified you (Jehovah) on the earth, having finished the work you have given me to do. 5 So now, Father, glorify me at your side with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was".John 17:4,5
1 Corinthians 15:45 "So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit."
Jesus Christ was not raised in the flesh just as Peter informs us....taking his flesh back would nullify the sacrifice he made. Paul says that "...flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of the heavens; neither does corruption inherit incorruption."After his resurrection, Jesus materialized bodies for himself just as the angels did in Noah's time when they began to cohabit with the daughters of mankind. Those wicked angels dematerialized and went back to the heavens but their offspring (Nephilim) were destroyed in the flood.
There were also materialized angels sent out as messengers to mankind.
Why do you think Jesus was not recgnized by his closest associates when they were up close and personal with him? Some recognized him by his voice and others by things he said but not through his appearance.THE TRINITY DOCTRINE IS OF PAGAN ORIGIN
Which ONE point would you like to address?
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On 7/12/2018 at 10:20 AM, Gone Away said:
You're in the wrong job if you could do that my friend. No one alive, or dead, can prove the trinity, and never has.
you are a fool to say "no one" as you dont KNOW everyone.
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5 hours ago, sami said:
Monotheism: Is it not the exclusive exaltation of the one source of all power, authority, and creativity?
The author who penned John 1:1c appears to have believed in this definition. Why wouldn't he? He was a Hebrew, and a Jew, and it is quite likely he was raised with the familiar words, "Hear O'Israel, yhwh our God is one Jehovah" ["Shma Yisra'el yhwh Eloheynu yhwh Echad" - Deuteronomy 6:4-5; also Mark 12:29-30; confirmed by the author of John in John 17:3].
So what could he have possibly been stating in John 1:1, when he renders that the logos [Jesus] was not only with God [ho theos], but that he [Jesus] was, "a god" [theos without the definite article]?
We know that the occurrence of theos in 1:1c by construct highlights the "quality" of the logos, that he was "divine", "godlike", or literally, "a god". But does this harmonize with the rest of the bible?
An individual named D.S. Russell who wrote "The Method and Message of Jewish Apocalyptic" included a comment on Hebrew monotheism, which I like, so I'll offer it here: "There is ample evidence to show that conception of monotheism was held in conjunction with a belief in a spiritual world peopled with supernatural and superhuman beings who, in some ways, shared the nature, though not the being, of God"But is that true when examining the biblical texts?
Indeed, for at times the Bible employs the term "a god" [elohim in Hebrew, theos in Greek, both lacking the definite article, ha in Hebrew, ho in the koine Greek] to refer to those of extreme authority or power in relations to others.Psalm 8:5 reads: "You also proceeded to make him [man] a little less than godlike ones [Hebrew, ´elo·him']," that is, angels. So angels, the malak, also called "the sons of the true God" in Genesis 6:2, and again in Job 1:6, Job 2:1, and Job 38:7, are called gods in Psalm 8:5.
In Exodus 4:15-16, Moses is told that Aaron would be to him for a mouth, while he would be "a god" (elohim) to Aaron [Vediber-hu lecha el-ha'am vehayah hu yihyeh-lecha lefeh ve'atah tihyeh-lo ‘elohim]. So Moshe was called by the title elohim, a god, as respects his position to Aaron as well as Pharaoh.
Directly in the book of subject here, in John Chapter 10, Jesus' defense against false charges that he claimed to be God [Yhwh], he noted that "the Law uses the word gods of those to whom the word of God was addressed," that is, human judges - [John 10:34, 35, JB; Psalm 82:1-6].
So human judges, are called gods, Moshe is called a god, and the sons of God [the malak, angels/messengers], are also called gods. Even Satan is called "the god of this system of things" at 2 Corinthians 4:4 by Paul, which makes sense, as ha'satan is identified among the sons of God in the above references in Job, the malak, those who were called "gods" in a specific indefinite construct [e.g., general class of].
According to the biblical texts, Jesus' resurrection placed him in a position far higher than angels, imperfect men, or Satan. Since these are referred to as "gods," mighty ones, surely Jesus can be and is "a god."
The biblical texts reserve the use of the title "Almighty God" [el shaddai] exclusively for Jehovah and no other. To call Jehovah by the title "Almighty" would have little significance unless there existed others who were also called gods but who occupied a lesser or inferior position.
And so the author of John also, calls the logos, the Christ, a god, or being of divine nature, though he never refers to him as "ho theos", the God, the one and only. He could have easily done so in John 1:1c - but he didn't.
"I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God." (John 20:17) Even though Jesus was already resurrected as a mighty spirit, Jehovah was still his God. And Jesus continued to refer to Him as such even in the last book of the Bible, after he was glorified. - [Revelation 1:5, 6; 3:2, 12].
At John 20:31, the Bible further clarifies the matter by stating: "These have been written down that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God," not that he was Almighty God. And it meant "Son" in a literal way, as with a natural father and son, not as some mysterious part of a Trinity Godhead where it certainly cannot be said, "Hear O'Israel, Yhwh our God is one Yhwh" ["Shma Yisra'el yhwh Eloheynu yhwh Echad"].
No, No, No. Come on, my friend, address the verses i gave.
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4 hours ago, sami said:
John 20:27,28
Jesus was raised up from the dead a "a being of divine nature" "a god" theos NOT "ho theos" (THE GOD)
That is your opinion and the text does NOT say that.
You did NOT address the verses.
If Jesus was just raised "spiritually", Jesus would NOT say "for a spirit has not flesh and bones, as you see me have.". The resurrected Jesus DID have a body of flesh and bones.
Also, the text is clear that Thomas called Jesus His God.
Now, the watchtower i believe ( and i could be wrong ) say that that was an expression of surprise much like we would use today.
However, this is easily refuted.
Jesus was a Jew.
Calling Jesus God would be considered blasphemy to the jews.
What is the penalty for blasphemy? death on the spot.
So, did Jesus reach for stones to kill him?
What did Jesus say? "You blasphemed, thomas?
No, He blessed him for realizing the truth!
My friend, i honestly do thank you for staying with the verses i gave ( apart from 1 post so far ). It makes things much easier to discuss.
If two people differ on something, there should be no reason why they cannot have a friendly, polite, loving conversation.
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4 hours ago, sami said:
What Does Hebrews 1:8 have reference to?
By Christ's entire life course of integrity to God, including his sacrifice, he accomplished the “one act of justification” that proved him qualified to serve as God’s anointed King-Priest in heaven. (Romans 5:17, 18) By his resurrection from the dead to life as a heavenly Son of God, he was “declared righteous in spirit.” (1Timothy 3:16) Heavenly creatures proclaimed him “worthy to receive the power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing,” as one who was both lionlike in behalf of justice and judgment and also lamblike in giving himself as a sacrifice for the saving of others. (Revelation 5:5-13) He had accomplished his primary purpose of sanctifying his Father’s name. (Matthew 6:9; 22:36-38) This he did, not just by using that name, but by revealing the Person it represents, displaying his Father’s splendid qualities—his love, wisdom, justice, and power—enabling persons to know or experience what his Father's name stands for. (Matthew 11:27; John 1:14, 18; 17:6-12) And above all, he did it by upholding Jehovah’s universal sovereignty, showing that his own Kingdom government would be based solidly on that Supreme Source of authority. Therefore it could be said of him: “God is your throne forever.” Hebrews 1:8.
Jehovah God always had immortality, that is the inability to die (deathless). Jesus was gifted (by Jehovah God) with immortality when he was raised from the dead.
So your reasoning is a bit skewed
Consider the source of the power and authority bestowed upon Jesus. With reference to the Son, the Bible states: “God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of your kingdom is the scepter of uprightness. You loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness.” (Hebrews 1:8, 9) Jesus’ throne, that is, his office or authority, has its source in Jehovah. God is the Originator and Giver of this throne. No problems will be too grave for Jesus to resolve.
AT LAST!
Now you have addressed a passage i quoted. Thank you.
Unfortunately, you did not think for yourself. You just cut and pasted what the watchtower tells you to say.
All you have done is given an interpretation which is biased and imbued with the false presupposition that Jesus is not God.
Please, my friend tell me what does "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: " mean?
It means clearly that God the father is addressing the Son as God.
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4 hours ago, sami said:
1 Corinthians 15: 27 For God “subjected all things under his (Christ's) feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does NOT include the One (JEHOVAH) who subjected all things to him (CHRIST). 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him (CHRIST), then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One (JEHOVAH) who subjected all things to him (CHRIST), that God (JEHOVAH) may be all things to everyone."
No.
Please address the passages i mentioned.
The passages we are dealing with in this post are:
John 20:27-28 "Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing." ( this also shows that Jesus was raised BODILY ) "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God."
John 1:1 "Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος ", "En archē ēn ho Logos kai ho Logos ēn pros ton Theon kai Theos ēn ho Logos", "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and God was the Word"
Hebrews 1:8 "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: "
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LOL. funny.
not one JW has EVER been able to PROVE who removed it and when
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Ignore the word "trinity". its not important.
God is everlasting, eternal, without beginning or end. God is unchanging, infinite, omnipresence, omniscient , self-existent, self-sufficient, immaterial and omnipotent.
There is only ONE God. God Himself says He knows of NO OTHER GOD and if He is all-knowing, He would know if there was any other Gods.The Bible says that God the father is God.
The Bible says that Jesus is God. John 8:58, John 1:1, John 20:28, Hebrews 1:8, Isaiah 44:6 ( cross-reference Revelation 1:17 )
The Bible says that the Holy Spirit is God. Acts 5:3,4. Romans 8:11
The Bible also says there is ONE God. DEUTERONOMY 6:4, DEUTERONOMY 4:35,39, DEUTERONOMY 32:39, 2 SAMUEL 7:22, 1 KINGS 8:60, 2 KINGS 5:15 , 2 KINGS 19:15, NEHEMIAH 9:6, PSALM 18:31 ( Which also states Jesus is God ), PSALM 86:1, ISAIAH 37:16,20, ISAIAH 43:10,11, ISAIAH 44:6,8, ISAIAH 45:21, ISAIAH 46:9, HOSEA 13:4, MARK 12:29-34, ROMANS 3:30, 1 CORINTHIANS 8:4-6, 1 TIMOTHY 2:5.
Therefore, somehow, these three entities constitute the one, eternal, everlasting God.
We are not told HOW God is God, that is not important. God just tells us thats the way it is.
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4 hours ago, Gone Away said:
You must realise by now that Jehovah's Witnesses today don't actually care about stuff like this? People like you cannot actually provide anything positively alternative to that which you constantlly attack. Just the same old rehashed griping. Can't you play a different tune? Or isn't there one?
I know jehovahs witnesses don't care about the watchtowers FAILED PROPHECIES.
Oh i do have an alternative to these false prophecies.
"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."
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4 hours ago, Gone Away said:
So it was! And now, it's changed again!!! Yippee!!
In other words, the watchtower has NO IDEA.
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CHRIST’S BODILY RESURRECTION ‘I have power to take it again’ John 10:18
Watchtower Teaching: ‘Jesus was raised to life as an invisible spirit. He did not take up again that body in which he had been killed . . .’ ‘Let your Name be sanctified.’ (p.266).
The Watchtower teaches that Jesus’ body was disposed of by God.
The NWT mistranslates I Peter 3:18 as ‘being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit’ to teach merely a spiritual resurrection of Christ.Bible Teaching: I Peter 3:18 refers to when Christ died. His Spirit went and preached to spirits in prison (v. 19,20). After three days, Christ’s physical body was raised.
I Peter 3:18 (KJV) correctly reads: ‘being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit.’
Which Scriptures best teach Christ’s bodily resurrection?
1. ‘They were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.’ (v.37) He said unto them, ‘Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.’ (Luke 24:37, 39)
Notice that the resurrected Christ says here that:
(1) He is not a spirit;
(2) His resurrection body has flesh and bones;
(3) His physical hands and feet are proof of His physical resurrection;
Jesus is trying to convince them that He, ‘I myself’ has a permanent physical body which still had the nail scars in His hands and feet. This is opposite to the WT teaching that Christ’s body was disposed of and that He became only a spirit. If the WT claim was correct, then
Jesus would be deceiving the disciples here in showing them His body.2. ‘Then saith he to Thomas, . . . reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.’ (John 20:27)
Here Jesus says that He has a physical side that He challenges Thomas to touch.3. ‘Neither did his flesh see corruption.’ - Acts 2:30,31
Notice the following:
a) God promised David that ‘according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ’ to sit on his throne.’ (v.30). This is a bodily resurrection of Christ, not spiritual. The NWT omits this because of its corrupt Westcott-Hort Greek text. Well over 38 manuscripts have it.
b) ‘neither did his flesh see corruption’ (v.31) means that Christ’s body did not decay.Why? Because Jesus was raised from the dead in a material, fleshly body.
4. ‘I will raise it up . . . he spake of the temple of his body.’ - John 2:19-21
‘Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up (v.19). But he spake of the temple of his body.’ (v.21)Jesus here promised that He Himself would raise up His own body after three days.
Notice how Jesus uses the word ‘body’ meaning a bodily resurrection, not a spiritual resurrection.
5. Christ promises to eat of the fruit of the vine in the Kingdom. Only a body can eat.
‘I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the Kingdom of God shall come.’(Luke 22:18)
Jesus here showed that his resurrected body would be able to eat and drink even in the Kingdom of God. Notice that a non-material spirit cannot eat and drink. Jesus promised the disciples in Luke 22:30 ‘that ye may eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom.’
Question: If Jesus expected to become an immaterial spirit, why would He promise the disciples that they would eat and drink with Christ at His table in His Kingdom?
6. Christ ate a broiled fish and a honeycomb in front of them. Luke 24:41,42.
7. ‘he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies’. Rom. 8:11
As Christ’s body was raised physically from the dead, so shall our mortal bodies be raised.8. His resurrection body could ‘breathe on them’(John 20:22). A spirit cannot breathe, can it?
9. ‘His feet shall stand in that day upon the Mount of Olives...’ Zechariah 14:4
A spirit does not have feet. Only a physical body has feet as Jesus has at His second coming.
10. ‘One shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands?’ Zechariah 13:6
Question: How can a non-material spirit have wounds in his hands which can be observed?
11. The resurrected, glorified Christ touched John, laying his right hand on him. Rev. 1:17
Watchtower Objection: JWs quote I Corinthians 15:44,50 to support their claim that Jesus was raised from the dead as a spirit creature:
a) ‘It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.’ (v.44)
b) ‘flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.’ (v.50). JWs claim that Jesus must have had a spiritual resurrection, because flesh-and-blood bodies cannot exist in heaven.They claim that mortality and corruption belong to the fleshly body.
Bible Teaching:
a) The Greek word for body, ‘soma’ (4983), always means a material body, an organised whole made up of parts, when used of a person (Zodhiates, NT Word Study,p.1358). The spiritual
body in I Cor.15:44 is not an immaterial body, but a supernatural, spirit-dominated body.It is a body directed by the spirit, as opposed to a body under the dominion of the flesh.
There are no exceptions to Paul using ‘soma’ for a material body.
Paul even refers to a believer as a ‘spiritual’ man who judges all things (I Cor. 2:15), yet Paul did not mean an immaterial invisible man with no physical body.He meant a spirit-controlled man with a flesh and blood body.
QUESTION: In I Corinthians 2:15 (‘He that is spiritual judgeth all things’), is Paul discussing an invisible spirit creature or a material, flesh-and-blood human? Can you see that being ‘spiritual’ does not demand a non-material body? The same is true in I Corinthians 15:44.
b) Key: In v.50 ‘flesh and blood’ is an idiom meaning that mortal, perishable, earth-bound
humans, as we are now, cannot have a place in God’s glorious, heavenly Kingdom.
c) ‘this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.’v.53
Nothing is taken away from us (materialness). Instead immortality is ‘put on’ or added to us.
Question: Don’t the words ‘put on’ mean adding something to humanity (that is immortality),
not taking away something from humanity (our material body)?Conclusion: Since Christ’s resurrected body could eat, drink, breathe (John 20:22), show His hands and feet with scars (Luke 24:40), be touched, and have flesh and bones (Luke 24:39), it is certain that this body was a material body. This is especially true since Jesus corrected the disciples’ misconception that they had seen a spirit (Luke 24:37).
For the JWs to say that a body is not a body, is their last resort of redefining common words.
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IS JESUS ‘MICHAEL THE ARCHANGEL’?
Watchtower Teaching WT claims that Daniel 10:13,21; 12:1; and I Thess 4:16 teach that:1) Jesus existed as Michael the archangel before his birth to Mary; then
2) Jesus gave up his spirit existence as an angel when he entered Mary’s womb to become a
human;
3) At the resurrection he was recreated as Michael the archangel.They describe Christ’s progressive existence as angel, then human, then angel.
‘Michael, one of the chief princes’ (Daniel 10:13). ‘Michael your prince’ (Daniel 10:21).
‘Michael the great prince’ (Daniel 12:1). JWs think that Jesus must be Michael because of
Michael’s authority over other angels as a chief prince.
The WT teaches that Jesus Christ was Michael the archangel, who was born as a human, died
and was raised up as an archangel again. They refer to Jesus Christ as Michael the archangel.
(Watchtower, 15 Feb, 1979, p.31).Bible Teaching:
1) Michael is ‘one of the chief princes’ (10:21), but Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son in
John 3:16. ‘Begotten’ in Greek is ‘monogenes’ meaning uniqueone of a kind. Michael
being ‘one of the chief princes’ means that he is just one among a group of chief angels.Ask: Where is Jesus called a ‘chief Prince’ in the Bible?
Ask: Where is Jesus clearly mentioned in Daniel 10:13?
Ask: Isn’t Jesus as ‘King of kings and Lord of lords’ (Revelation 19:16) much higher in
authority than one of a group of chief princes?2) Ask: ‘To which of the angels did God ever say ‘thou art my son’?’ (Hebrews 1:5)
3) The Bible mentions Michael the archangel five times as:
1. ‘Michael, one of the chief princes’ (Daniel 10:13)
2, ‘Michael, your prince’ (Daniel 10:21)
3. ‘Michael, the great prince’ (Daniel 12:1)
4. ‘Michael the archangel . . . durst not bring against him (the devil) a railing accusation, but said The Lord rebuke thee’ (Jude 9)
5. ‘Michael and his angels fought against the dragon’ (Revelation 12:7)
Ask: Which of these verses state that Michael is Jesus Christ? None of them.
4) The WT claims support from I Thessalonians 4:16 ‘the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call,with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet’(NWT)
Ask: If using an archangel’s voice makes Jesus an archangel, then having God’s trumpet makes Jesus to be God.
Note: I Thessalonians 4:16 doesn’t explicitly say that Jesus Himself speaks with the voice of the archangel. When Jesus comes from heaven to rapture the church from earth, He will be accompanied by Michael the archangel. It is the archangel’s voice that shouts, not Jesus’ voice. Jesus doesn’t shout, but Michael does shout. This is like what happens at the end of the seven year tribulation, when Jesus returns ‘from heaven with his mighty angels’ (II Thessalonians 1:7).
If angels accompany Christ at the end of the 7 year tribulation, then clearly Michael will accompany Christ at the rapture before the 7 year tribulation, so Michael cannot be Jesus.
5) In Jude 9, Michael did not have the authority to rebuke Satan, but Jesus did have the authority as follows: Jesus said ‘Get thee hence, Satan’ (Matthew 4:10) and ‘Get thee behind me, Satan’ (Mark 8:33)
Michael said to Satan,‘The Lord rebuke thee’, proving that the only one with the authority to rebuke Satan is God. So, Matt. 4:10 proves that Jesus Christ is the Lord God.
Ask: Since Michael could not rebuke Satan in his own authority, but Jesus could and did rebuke Satan, doesn’t that mean that Michael and Jesus are different persons?
6) All the angels (Michael included) are commanded to worship Christ. (Hebrews 1:6)
7) The writer of Hebrews asks several questions about angels and Jesus Christ, which prove them to be different persons:
i) ‘Unto which of the angels said he at any time, thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee?’ (Hebrews 1:5)
ii) ‘To which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?’ (Hebrews 1:13)
iii) ‘Unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come (millennium)’ (Hebrews 1:13).
iv) ‘For verily, he took not on him the nature of angels’ (Hebrews 2:16)
v) Does Michael sustain all things by the word of his power? (See Hebrews 1:3). No!
vi) Is it right to honour Michael the archangel just as you honour the Father? (John 5:23)? Ask: Do good angels refuse worship? (Certainly). When John fell down to worship the angel, the angel rebuked him, saying ‘See thou do it not ....worship God’. (Rev 22:8,9).
The Father commands all the angels (Michael included) to worship Christ. (Heb 1:6).
The ‘proskuneo’ worship that angels refuse to accept but say to give to God, the Father commands thissame ‘proskuneo’ worship to be given to the Son. Hence the Son cannot be an angel, but must be God. True Bible students soon discover that Jesus is no mere angel, but God. This lesson must be learnt so they may ‘honour the Son just as they honour the Father’. (John 5:23 NWT).
9) Jesus Christ is unchangeable: ‘Jesus Christ the same, yesterday and today and forever’. (Hebrews 13:8). The WT view of Jesus is that He was Michael who changed to become a man, and who at his resurrection changed back to Michael the archangel.
The Watchtower Jesus is changeable. They have a false and different Jesus.
10) Jesus Christ created all the angels, including the thrones and principalities of which Michael is a chief prince of a principality. ‘For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers’. (Colossians 1:16).
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PLEASE, my friends, lets address ONE passage per message/reply.
Some, but not ALL passages that show that Jesus is God are :
1) John 20:27-28 "Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing." ( this also shows that Jesus was raised BODILY ) "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God."
2) John 1:1 "Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος ", "En archē ēn ho Logos kai ho Logos ēn pros ton Theon kai Theos ēn ho Logos", "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and God was the Word"
3) Hebrews 1:8 "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: "
PLEASE do not reply with other verses that you think support your view. Address these 3 please.
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I will no longer be addressing anything on this thread.
This is due to the behavior and attitude of a few people.
I have started and may start new threads if anyone wants to participate in those.
Or, start a thread and mention me and i will respond.
But, PLEASE, ONE topic per thread or just a couple of Bible verses per thread, otherwise i will not bother.
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Oh, i am pretty sure there is ANOTHER reason they would want to destroy their records.
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1 hour ago, ShariKind said:
That's why, when someone really examines the Trinity doctrine, a normal person will scratch his head and say, "What"? And because it's been claimed that the Trinity is incomprehensible (i.e. a mystery), that settles it. LOL! ?
Wrong, they will say, oh, God tells us that God the father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are each referred to as God.
We are also told that there is only one God. Therefore, SOMEHOW, the three "entities" ( for want of a better phrase ) constitute the one, everlasting, eternal God.
If we must reject everything that we cannot understand, God help us!
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9 hours ago, Space Merchant said:
@Jesus.defender You do realize using the “@” function allows you to mention the person right, not solely quotations alone? I was not speaking with you; I was informing the other commenter about you. All in all, I really do not care if you are ignoring me or not, for the lack of such care is not in me, I only care about truth and untruths and will response to such directly should need be – direct or indirectly for falsehood in terms of scripture, in regards to the Church, in regards to Christology, as well as Christology of others who actually make the attempt to adhere to what the early Christian, the early Church has done, a response can and always will be made, as if that was not clear to begin with. That being said, it didn't stop you from making the same action in terms of response, so it would be wise to not pose yourself as an even bigger hypocrite who is above the rest and last I checked, you dove into the deep end of the pool because it wasn’t anyone else but a JW responding to Trinitarian heresy, should anyone else have said such you would not have made such responses afterwards, which was evident elsewhere. I only mentioned you, if you noticed, not much of a direct response because with how you operate, I know you will not really be able to answer @ShariKind, however, I too await to see what you will say granted by your actions, Deserter. When it comes to anything regarding the Bible, ones such as yourself have no strength against anyone who is literal of non-denominational following, but such ones such as yourself will go out of their way to go after JWs (mind you guys only for the inexperienced JWs for if met with an educated and well aware JW be it current or former, you shake and quake).
Also the fact that you are a follower of James White, The Trinitarian Theologian who has written well over 20 books, been in 160 or so moderated debate, kills your credibility for James White has been exposed as a false teacher by most, even by those in Islam, just as David Wood, just as Jay Smith, etc. Furthermore, even the non-religious are not fans either, and actually pointed out Trinitarians as well as KJV-Onlyist follow this man like moths to a fire.
- James White had been question and defeated by Hamza Myatt
- James White had debated and had been defeated by a JehovahÂ’s Witness
- James White had been debated and defeated both times by Adnan Rashid the first in regards to Bible corruption
- The Second run in with Mr. Rashid was regarding Salvation/Jesus' Crucifixion
- James White had debated and had been defeated by a Fellowship Unitarian, Anthony Buzzard
- Moreover, Anthony Buzzard spoke of how the Trinitarians do not agree with the Shema, even informing James White has brushed over what the Shema actually is
- James White's debate with Buzzard had been talked about even by those neutral with JWs
- This same person also broke down 3 parts to specific points made by the two men: First | Second | Third
- James White had been exposed in regards to the his acceptance of uninspired biblical text that was NOT part of the Oldest Source
- Simon Brown, who follows no denomination also spoke about the White v. Stafford debate
The list goes on...
Also if you are aware like us at CSE, you would also know about Mr. WhiteÂ’s bad behavior online, known as a bully, sends his people after others, provokes people and the most silly thing he does should one becomes provoked and says something ignorant or stupid, he captures such and puts it on his social media and this behavior of his has been happening for YEARS.
That being said, I will say it again, you can babying around JWs all you want, but it is FACT that Trinitarians or in this case, a disgruntled JW such as yourself, is and will always act foolish, and the fact you support James White, well, that is further beyond of what can be seen of you. It is even more horrendous when met with the likes of an Agnostic.
So it is clear, the only God is the Father (to which you agree on this and it would be stupid to go back on what you have said for all that you said in this regard has been quoted).
Jesus is NOT God for Jesus is a man who professed the Law, he is the In-between for God and men to mankind, as if the story of Moses made that any clear. If you still want to play the God Card, why not call Moses God, that is, if you accept what the Trinitarians make of Exodus 7:1?
The Holy Spirit is not God and or a Person either, for the Bible never makes any mention of the Holy Spirit being a person. This is why we have problems with Trinitarians who attempt to use John 14 and 16 when the Greek Language Form is evident, for we know why Holy Spirit is referred to as a HE/Him the same way we understand why Jerusalem is referred to as a SHE/HER. They will attempt to use Paul when Paul, John and several others own testimony kills the Personhood belief. Moreover, a sane man will not accept your belief that The Holy Spirit caused Mary conceive Jesus for Mary herself stated she had no relations with a man, no one is going to take it from you that a Person came to visit 3,000 people on that faithful day at Pentecost, no one is going to take it from you that the Holy Spirit is aware of the day and hour of judgment, let alone this so called Personhood that has no seat around God, when the Bible makes it clear God in his dwelling place has His Throne and the only one next to him is Jesus, at God’s right hand.
Again, multiple things in one topic. i remember why i stopped replying to you.
I am only going to address the james white follower accusation as i think i have addressed your other lies elsewhere.
You are mistaken, my friend.
i do NOT follow any man. i disagree with james white on more than one point. He is a calvinist which is anti-Christian. Just because i post a video of his, that means i am his "follower"? Do YOU "follow" every person you quote?
However, he DOES know how to explain things like the "trinity" far better than I can.
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Just like the jehovahs witnesses are anti-Christian, yet in some points they put Christians to shame.
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You have to eat the meat and spit out the bones.
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I can list other people too:
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7 hours ago, Gone Away said:
Did you?
Dont answer a question with a question.
Did you read the post?
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2:34:26
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1918 "Therefore we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old, particularly those named by the Apostle in Hebrews 11, to the condition of human perfection," (Millions Now Living Will Never Die, p. 89).
1922 "The date 1925 is even more distinctly indicated by the Scriptures than 1914," (Watchtower, Sept. 1, 1922, p. 262).
1923 "Our thought is, that 1925 is definitely settled by the Scriptures. As to Noah, the Christian now has much more upon which to base his faith than Noah had upon which to base his faith in a coming deluge," (Watchtower, Apr. 1, 1923, p. 106). -
5 minutes ago, Brother Rando said:
Is it because you are being a religious hypocrite like you forefathers that lied about Jesus Christ being God??? That false charge is a lie, don't you know anything Sherlock??
How rude. I am done with you.
God bless you. I will pray for you.
JW vs the Bible
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