Anna

22 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I was counseled quite severely on this point. I had to give each of the brothers a quilt to get rid of them.

Hahaha! sorry, guilting! That's what you get with autocorrect when you don't pay attention, a quilt! I will go and change it. The word I mean.

13 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Not all of these recommendations were in the publications; some came from the talks during the circuit overseer's visit, and district overseers were encouraged to arrange special talks on the subject of 1975.  The May 1974 Kingdom Ministry was one of the publications that spoke to this issue directly. I'm quoting almost the entire article to give a better sense:

*** km 5/74 p. 3-4 How Are You Using Your Life? ***
. . . Are we not thankful that Jehovah God has purchased us and that we now belong to Him? . . . The apostle Peter noted that if we have the proper mental disposition we will be moved to “live the remainder of [our] time in the flesh, no more for the desires of men, but for God’s will.”—1 Pet. 4:2.
Is that what you are doing? Are you living no longer simply to satisfy personal ambitions or desires, but to do God’s will? Are there ways in which you could share more fully in doing the will of God?
God’s Will for Us
Jehovah makes clear in his Word that his will for us today includes accomplishing a great work of Kingdom-preaching before the end of this system comes. (Matt. 24:14) . . . Jesus did not hold back, but was whole-souled in his service to God. . . . Jesus knew that he had only a short time, and he did not spare himself in finishing his assignment. Should we not today be imitating his example, especially since we have such a short time left now in which to complete the Kingdom-preaching?
Yes, the end of this system is so very near! Is that not reason to increase our activity? In this regard we can learn something from a runner who puts on a final burst of speed near the finish of a race. Look at Jesus, who apparently stepped up his activity during his final days on earth. In fact, over 27 percent of the material in the Gospels is devoted to just the last week of Jesus’ earthly ministry!—Matt. 21:1–27:50; Mark 11:1–15:37; Luke 19:29–23:46; John 11:55–19:30.
By carefully and prayerfully examining our own circumstances, we also may find that we can spend more time and energy in preaching during this final period before the present system ends. Many of our brothers and sisters are doing just that. This is evident from the rapidly increasing number of pioneers.
Yes, since the summer of 1973 there have been new peaks in pioneers every month. Now there are 20,394 regular and special pioneers in the United States, an all-time peak. That is 5,190 more than there were in February 1973! A 34-percent increase! Does that not warm our hearts? Reports are heard of brothers selling their homes and property and planning to finish out the rest of their days in this old system in the pioneer service. Certainly this is a fine way to spend the short time remaining before the wicked world’s end.—1 John 2:17.
Circumstances such as poor health or responsibilities in connection with your family may limit what you can do in the field ministry. And yet, the pioneer ranks include many who have health limitations, as well as some persons with families. But these brothers and sisters are able to regulate their lives so that they can care for their responsibilities and still put in the 1,200 hours a year, an average of 100 hours a month in the field ministry, required of pioneers.
Therefore, do not be too quick to dismiss the possibility that you, too, may be able to pioneer. Give it careful and prayerful consideration. Perhaps an analysis will reveal that your life is encumbered with needless weights that can be put off so that you can pioneer. Particularly may this be the case if you are single, or are married but have no children.—Heb. 12:1.
So, then, ask yourself: How am I using my life? Can I make adjustments that will enable me to pioneer? If I can, will failure to do so indicate to Jehovah that I am living to satisfy personal desires, rather than to do His will? Every one of us wants to be able to say, as did the apostle Paul, “Indeed, the life that I now live in flesh I live by the faith that is toward the Son of God, who loved me and handed himself over for me. I do not shove aside the undeserved kindness of God.” Gal. 2:20, 21. . . .
So do not delay in giving serious consideration to this matter of how you are using your life. See if you can arrange your affairs to pioneer. Why not discuss the matter with persons already pioneering or with elders in your congregation?

I was part of that 34% increase, one of the 20,394 who had started regular pioneering in the summer of 1973. It included a lot of persons just quitting high school at 16, 17, or having just graduated at 18. I was still 15 when I quit school, and got my diploma through a test when I was 16, which was the only way my father would let me pioneer -- if I already had a diploma and I met with the circuit overseer to talk about it first. The encouragement not to pursue further education came from the circuit overseer and from discussions of talks and of articles such as one below. The core point of the article is found in the two predictions. I added the years [in brackets] that would have gone through your head if you read this in 1969, which helped me decide to quit school in 1973.

If you are a young person you also need to face the fact that you will never grow old in this present system of things. Why not? Because all the evidence in fulfillment of Bible prophecy indicates that this corrupt system is due to end in a few years.  . . .  Therefore, as a young person, you will never fulfill any career that this system offers. If you are in high school and thinking about a college education, it means at least four, [1973] perhaps even six [1975] or eight more years [1977] to graduate into a specialized career. But where will this system of things be by that time? It will be well on the way towards its finish, if not actually gone!"  -- Awake! May 22, 1969, page 14-15.

At Bethel, the Awake! magazine was put into "MEPS" format back to 1950 at the same time as the Watchtower. This is what allowed the publications go into the first Watchtower Library CD's. In fact, if you call the Watchtower Society and ask them to look up something in the Awake! they actually use a Watchower Library CD that takes the Awake! back to 1946. I can't think of any reason they decided to take it only as far back as 1970 on the public CD except perhaps this article from 1969. The Watchtower goes back to 1950 on the public CD.

I think it brings some reproach even to bring it up again without honestly explaining why people thought that they wouldn't grow old. They would have never just "thought" that on their own. They were specifically "told" that they would not grow old in this system. Bringing up these old issues at an assembly as a way to claim that it has now been addressed and to show a certain lesson that was learned from it is not helpful unless it's done openly and honestly. The lesson should probably be quite different than the lesson we are now told to learn from that time period. The lessons should probably be that we always let our reasonableness be known to all, and obey God as ruler rather than men, and never allow ourselves to think of any of our elders as if they were in the seat of Moses. Without those lessons, even though all the brothers mean well, it's easy to drift back into an attitude where we can forget our own personal responsibility towards Jehovah and the congregation.

*** w13 11/15 p. 20 par. 17 Seven Shepherds, Eight Dukes—What They Mean for Us Today ***
(2) When “the Assyrian” attacks, the elders must be absolutely convinced that Jehovah will deliver us. (3) At that time, the life-saving direction that we receive from Jehovah’s organization may not appear practical from a human standpoint. All of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether these appear sound from a strategic or human standpoint or not.

*** w13 11/15 p. 24 par. 14 Obey Jehovah’s Shepherds ***
To survive the tenth plague, the Israelites had to obey the instructions to have a special meal and to splash some of the blood of a slaughtered sheep on the doorposts and lintels of their houses. That direction did not come to them by means of a voice out of heaven. No, they had to listen to the older men of Israel, who in turn received specific instructions from Moses. (Ex. 12:1-7, 21-23, 29) In those circumstances, Moses and the older men acted as bearers of Jehovah’s instructions to his people. Christian elders fulfill a comparably vital function today.

(Matthew 23:2) 2 “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the seat of Moses.

Even in a recent article with good information in it warning us against apostates, note how easy it is to slip into the idea that instructions are coming from our leaders instead of from our Leader.

*** w17 July pp. 29-30 Winning the Battle for Your Mind ***
A soldier whose loyalty to his leader is weakened will not fight well. So propagandists attempt to break bonds of confidence and trust between a soldier and his commander. They may use such propaganda as: “You cannot trust your leaders!” and “Do not let them lead you into disaster!” To add weight to these attacks, they may cleverly exploit any mistakes those leaders might make. Satan does this. He never gives up trying to undermine your confidence in the leadership that Jehovah has provided.
Your defense? Be determined to stick to Jehovah’s organization and loyally support the leadership he provides—no matter what imperfections may surface. (1 Thess. 5:12, 13) Do not be “quickly shaken from your reason” . . .

 

Thanks JWInsider. I am familiar with the publications you quoted and the article in the KM. I asked that question purposefully because I was not aware that there had been any publications that actually "recommended that we sell our belongings". I thought maybe I had missed one. However, as you pointed out, the insinuations were definitely there, if only because of the praise for those who had done so. This is why I find the video from the convention so curious. I listened to it again and here is the transcript from it (video part of the talk "How you can by no means ever fail") :

The setting, the father is relating his story of how when his wife died and thereafter

“With Jehovah’s help, and with the support of the brothers and sisters we got through it (the death of his wife). We learned to rely on Jehovah in ways we never had before. And that helped when years later another test came our way. You see, back then, some were looking to a certain date (1975) as signifying the end of this old system. A few went even so far as selling their homes and quitting their jobs. I admit, I was ready to see this old system go away too, but something just didn’t seem right. Both at meetings, and in my personal study, I was reminded of what Jesus said: Nobody knows the day or the hour. I was dedicated to Jehovah, not a date. After that year came and went, most of those who had wrong expectations made the needed adjustments and they stayed.  We didn’t run away and we didn’t give up. We trusted in Jehovah”.

So, what is the moral of the story? Since at that time those who had sold their homes and gave up their job were held up as a good example, as per the aforementioned KM,  my thoughts are that the GB is reminding us that they make mistakes, and that ultimately, when it comes to the crunch, if something doesn’t seem right, then the scriptures take precedent, (as attested to also by Geoffrey Jackson in his response to a question at the ARC hearing: "So our primary allegiance is to Jehovah God.  Now, the Governing Body realises that if we were to give some direction that is not in harmony with God's word, all of Jehovah's Witnesses worldwide who have the Bible would notice that and they would see that it was wrong direction") and a reminder that our dedication is to Jehovah and not to them, and that ultimately we can trust no man, only Jehovah.  Including remembering the key scriptures associated with the talk, 2 Peter 1:5-10, Isaiah 40:31, 2 Corinthians 4:7, 9,16 THAT in a nutshell is how we can “By No Means Ever Fail”  @bruceq

Otherwise you and  @TrueTomHarley I think have pretty much covered most of the points to do with indirect suggestions and "guilting" at that time.  "You have health problems? Family responsibilities? No excuse! Let's listen to this experience from [someplace] where a hearing and sight-impaired mother of 10 with no arms and legs got her kids ready for school every day and then put in 8 hours of service"  Just about cracked me up!

7 hours ago, Gnosis Pithos said:

Only those that truly receive God's Holy Spirit will not deviate from scripture. That would also include those that God has commissioned to understand what Generations and Time Prophecy actually means, and therefore dispensing that knowledge at the proper time

That hasn't always been the case though has it? You know the expression "we used to think" as applied to past interpretations shows that those "understanding" did not understand correctly.

1. Not in any of the continents that I know of, i.e North America and Europe. I am not sure about the rest of the world but I doubt it. The copies in North America and Europe are not sold, but contributions towards the world wide work are accepted. I assume this goes for the rest of the world, in which case answers to questions 2-4 are non applicable.

Fun fact: http://www.businessinsider.com/the-most-widely-read-magazine-in-the-world-is-the-monthly-pub-of-jehovahs-witnesses-2010-9

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

publications recommended that we sell our belongings

Which publications were those? Would you provide a reference?

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

For example, the prediction that young people will never grow old in this system of things. Those false predictions brought reproach upon the organization.

I hasten to add that they didn't bring reproach on the organization in the eyes of faithful ones, who are still faithful now. In fact one of the talks at the convention (a talk most probably assigned to be given by a GB helper, ours was) the brother mentions these very things. He goes on to say how most of us thought we wouldn't grow old. He doesn't explain why or offer any "excuses" for the reasons why we thought that, he says it as matter of fact and most take it as matter of fact. However, some have definitely allowed this to become a stumbling block and that is why they are now ex- Witnesses. I am not sure if the rest of the world is even aware of these "false predictions" bar perhaps those who study religions. 

For me it was the brown one

6 hours ago, bruceq said:

But what you are doing is more than just about 1914, you are trying to destroy the faith of your friends here and that shows an improper attitude toward the interpretative authority of Jehovah's Organization and a lack of love toward the faith of those here.

Although not addressed to me, I have to take issue with this statement. For a start, this forum is not a source of "official" teachings but is merely the expression of the opinion of others and open to discussion. Saying someone is "trying to destroy the faith of others" is being rather presumptuous, implying a motive which may not be true at all. In any case, what is this faith IN that you are talking about that can be destroyed? You say it's more than just about 1914. Is it faith in the current chronology? Faith in the current interpretation of the generation? But are these things the core of our belief and and does our salvation hinge on believing them? Why get upset by someone questioning 1914 etc. Isn't this the criterion for getting saved: "Since all these things are to be dissolved in this way, consider what sort of people you ought to be in holy acts of conduct and deeds of godly devotion, as you await and keep close in mind the presence of the day of Jehovah,.............Therefore, beloved ones, since you are awaiting these things, do your utmost to be found finally by him spotless and unblemished and in peace" (2.Peter 3:11,12, 14- in fact all of ch. 3 is good)

Isn't our preaching ministry and our life as Christians the important thing, rather than dates and chronology? As for a supposed "improper" attitude toward the interpretative authority of the GB, again, this forum is open to discussions about interpretation. Many thinking JW's do have their own opinion on certain things. Those who do not like this, really do not have to read it and/or take part in it. I feel you are concerned about the faith of others because of the valid arguments that have been put forward that undermine our "present" understanding of certain dates. But again, our faith surely does not hinge on dates and chronology does it? We know the GB has not always got everything right and will continue not to get everything right. (Those thinking JWs will not get everything right either). But this is no reason to get our knickers in a twist if we keep Peter's admonition above in mind.

Just a question for you, if in the future the GB scrapped 1914, would you lose faith? I hope the answer in NO.

11 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

What's the reason we don't want to say Jesus was ruling as king in 33?

I guess because his beginning to rule as king has been tied to the last days, (as understood to be not the "last days" of Jerusalem's destruction in 70 C.E. but the last days of the sign of his presence and of the conclusion of the system of things i.e. great tribulation followed by Armageddon). Could it be said that the last days started in 33 C.E?

@JW Insider thanks for your reply. 

So I wonder, could we say Jesus became an uncrowned king in 33 CE and a crowned king in 1914? The definition of “uncrowned”  being :“having royal rank or power without occupying the royal office”. Wouldn't this be scripturally compatible?

35 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

We already know from other scriptures that Jesus became king in 33 C.E.

Pardon if I am misunderstanding, but when Jesus rode into Jerusalem etc. was he not an uncrowned king? A sovereign prince who had not yet received the crown? And if he had received the crown, which scriptures tell us this?

20 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

And the result of posting libelous unproven claims on line.

Yes

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

This could get really fun, and cover a lot of different topics, and you know that I probably couldn't stop myself from joining in.  But another "thread" would be better. I'm really not anxious to share too many ideas on Daniel and Revelation, even though I think there are several places where simpler and clearer understandings are possible. But I'm not trying to give the impression that I "know" anything more than you or anyone else on all these matters. And I think I've probably caused enough confusion or commotion in the way I brought up 1914 this time.

Let us know when you start the new thread please! I don't have much time lately to contribute, but I am enjoying reading yours and others comments 

A recent example of a sad state of affairs regarding child sexual abuse and the paranoia it has raised:

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/a-man-helped-a-lost-toddler-find-her-parents-police-say-he-was-smeared-online-as-a-predator-and-fled-town/ar-BBDmn1R?li=BBnb7Kz

"So.....what we gonna do"?? 

(Vultures from jungle book- in case someone is not familiar with the scene)

13 hours ago, PeterR said:

 

You brought up the convention video.

No need to respond, since I'm aware that there isn't any defense for this convention video. We'll just put it down to "alternative facts".

I brought up the convention video. I also brought up the "marriage" issue from last weeks  WT study. Two different things. Now unless @TrueTomHarleyhas been to the convention, he might not know what the video was even about.

11 hours ago, PeterR said:

 

Okay Tom. Let's test that.

At the end of 1968 this brother would have been studying the following Watchtower in the congregation:

*** w68 8/15 p. 494 Why Are You Looking Forward to 1975? ***
 

I encourage you to examine it for yourself as if you were this brother at that time, and then see if you can sustain your response. There are too many highlights to choose from, but the one I was referring to in particular was this one:

 

*** w68 8/15 pp. 500-501 par. 35 Why Are You Looking Forward to 1975? ***
This is not the time to be toying with the words of Jesus that “concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.” (Matt. 24:36) To the contrary, it is a time when one should be keenly aware that the end of this system of things is rapidly coming to its violent end.

 

The entire article was 37 paragraphs of building anticipation for 1975.

Please bear in mind that this was not "an opinion piece". This was a study article which all were expected to learn from and apply. So to say in this assembly video that this brother felt forewarned by what he had learned at the meetings is .... ?

Ah, now you may get picky and say that this was a few years before 1975 and maybe the fervor in print had cooled off by then. In that case please show me the mitigating texts that this brother was supposed to have drawn from. In fact the KM was praising those who sold houses and left jobs right up to the year itself. And this brother says "some even went so far as to sell homes and give up jobs ...". Hmmmm.

I know an elder who cuts out significant soundbites from study articles and sticks it on his wall as a reminder of "current truth". They will stay there for as long as it takes unless that truth is changed. So if this brother in the video had treated the Watchtower as seriously (and most did), then he would not have been "ignoring prevailing opinion at the time" as you suggest, but rather he would have been ignoring food from the FDS.

If you don't care to look up the article and other relevant material in print at the time then I would be happy to supply more quotations. But I imagine that will suffice to at least have you reconsider your assertion that what I wrote "is absolutely incorrect".

 

 

 

 

 

 

I personally

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think @TrueTomHarleywas talking about the brother who wanted to get married, in last weeks WT study, not about the 1975 brother in the video at the convention. If I'm not mistaken...

3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Therefore we would expect that the definition of the word was the same for both historical contexts.

My thoughts too. But then how do the "signs of the times" fit in? If we assume the meaning of the generation is the same as in 70 CE, then should we be expecting some other significant sign (other than what has happened since 1914) to which the "this generation will by no means pass away until THOSE THINGS happen" would apply? What things could they be?

1 hour ago, The Librarian said:

@Anna the key would be to stay on topic or start your own new topic. 

I only fork it off if it is completely astray from the topic theme.

Of course, that would be ideal, but as you see, it is kind of difficult to stay on topic, especially if it's not you who changes the topic in the first place....but yes, I understand.

7 hours ago, PeterR said:

By the way, even though I didn't raise this topic, the answer to the title question is ... YES

Will it happen? Not in the majority of cases. But the fact that it can and does happen should raise a red flag because some people are getting hurt.

That is far too simplistic. A disfellowshipping happens for several reasons and merely not believing something is not one of them.

So....I did ask the elder. Of course he did not give me a yes or a no answer immediately. He said it depends. But disfellowshipped directly and specifically for not believing the overlapping generation NO. Of course I already knew his answer because he has known about my feelings regarding this topic (overlapping generation) for a long time and I have as yet not been disfellowshipped and don't ever expect to be over this issue. It stands to reason. There is no scriptural basis to disfellowship someone for not believing something which is ambiguous, or not clearly set out in the scriptures, or is not a core teaching.  A case in point: The experience of Willi Diehl in last weeks WT study. He knew getting married was not un-scriptural, therefor he went ahead despite sanctions and despite some treating him as if he was disfellowshipped. But he was not disfellowshipped. Another situation; in the video at the convention last week, (Friday 4:15 - How you can by no means ever fail) the brother did not go along with the 1975 idea, because, in his own words "something just didn't seem right" he reminded himself that we cannot know since Jesus said no one knows, and that he was dedicated to Jehovah, and not to a date. Similarly, if someone does not go along with the overlapping generation idea, because they personally do not see sufficient scriptural evidence, then that is no grounds for disfellowshipping.

Back to the "it depends". If someone created enough fuss and caused divisions and unrest in the congregation because he insisted everyone came around to his view, then if that person continued despite nicely being asked to stop, then he could end up being disfellowshipped. Not for his belief, but for causing divisions. And disfellowshipping for that does have scriptural basis.

6 hours ago, PeterR said:

I hadn't realized that people could create new topics under your name without your say so. But this is the second one for me now.

So if anyone thinks I started this and haven't replied I can assure you I wasn't even aware that this topic existed until a couple of seconds ago.

This happened to me a few times as well. The Librarian (or someone) seems to take the liberty to do this when they see fit. I wish they would ask first...

21 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

He evidently meant that the lives of the anointed who were on hand when the sign began to become evident in 1914 would overlap with the lives of other anointed ones who would see the start of the great tribulation.

This is evidently only so because evidently the previous thought was wrong because most of the 1914 generation, as previously interpreted, are dead.

4 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

In a post within 3 minutes of yours, I noticed that the 2010 original WT on this teaching appears to carefully delineate what items are definite and what items are not. It's from this type of writing that I assume you derived the idea that it was, in effect, "optional."

Yes, I posted first and then saw your post after, and yes, you are right.

My thoughts too:

14 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Note that it isn't by believing in a potential 'two-lifespan' generation that we are keeping up with advancing light and the leadings of holy spirit, but only explcitly by maintaining a sense of urgency, and keeping on the watch. As Christians we would do this with or without the two-lifespan generation, based on other scriptures,

Of course it could be interpreted the other way too, could it not? That we are keeping up with advanced light by believing the two life span generation....perhaps this is how opposers interpret it and hence the "confusion"....?

I think we should explore this one a little further

5 hours ago, JW Insider said:

whether belief in the current "overlapping generation" doctrine was optional, or perhaps less important than other doctrines

And leave this one for later

5 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Another question (mine) was whether we should get involved in discussions of chronology at all

3 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Assuming the formula is stated correctly ( and it's NOT ... ) the answer is "minus 8 pi alpha".

I guess I will note here that I called True TomHarley's bluff in the previous thread, and challenged  him to explain the "overlapping generations" in such a simple manner that EVEN AH could understand it ... and he looked at his cards, and folded.

A shame really ... I was hoping to understand what appears to me to be gobbledegook, as all the Elders and other JWs I asked to explain it to me were also unable to do so.  

SOOooo, after declaring how simple it was, TTH was unable to explain it to me in his own words ...  which means to me that he CANNOT believe it himself, as he cannot explain it to anyone else in his own words... after challenged to ACTUALLY do so.

If loyal defenders of the doctrine cannot explain it ..... how can they POSSIBLY believe it themselves?

Even though TTH folded under challenge, JTR knows that even  TBBT's Sheldon Cooper is stumped sometimes, even by a Feynman Diagram ... and the Janitor sitting next to him instantly has the correct answer.

"Go Polar Bears!"

The pathetic shame of it all is TTH REALLY believes ... that he really believes it.

 

No offense JTR but maybe you should take your bickering with TTH to another thread. We are trying to have a serious and (if possible) fruitful discussion here. I still owe you an answer on the other thread, but unfortunately it doesn't fit the topic either, since you have fractured it into several other topics and keep doing so by bringing up unrelated issues (via cartoons etc.) Still, I will try and return to it later.

7 hours ago, Jim Seward said:

Hi Anna,
I appreciate this question. Predation actually contributes to ecosystem stability, playing a critical role. Viewed this way, predation then contributes to the overall "peace among animals."

See for instance this article by Dr. Fazale Rana, an old-earth creationist biochemist:
Animal Death Prevents Ecological Meltdown
http://www.reasons.org/articles/animal-death-prevents-ecological-meltdown

Interesting article. Thanks.