Anna

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

It's not one of the most popular bits of Watch Tower trivia.

I can see why!

34 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

“One by one she slew her fears, and then planted a flower garden over their graves.”

Yes, that's nice. She made lemonade out of lemons! Or a Mojito...wait that's limes, not lemons.....

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Or, from a different perspective . . . Be careful who you associate with. Those who are at war with themselves have a a better appreciation and empathy for those around them. (Less chance of collateral damage.)

(Romans 7:22-25) 22 I really delight in the law of God according to the man I am within, 23 but I see in my body another law warring against the law of my mind and leading me captive to sin’s law that is in my body. 24 Miserable man that I am! Who will rescue me from the body undergoing this death? 25 Thanks to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So, then, with my mind I myself am a slave to God’s law, but with my flesh to sin’s law.

(ESV) "But I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members."

 

Good one JWI!

8 minutes ago, Bible Speaks said:

"I do not associate 
with deceitful men,
And I avoid those who 
hide what they are."
        (Psalm 26:4)

The thing is, collateral damage is unintentional, so it doesn't really apply to deceitful men who hide who they are. Perhaps this would be more apt? : " Do not be misled. Bad associations spoil useful habits" 1 Cor 15:33 and "The one walking with the wise will become wise, But the one who has dealings with the stupid (who war with themselves) will fare badly". Proverbs 13:20. Just my two cents.

31 minutes ago, Witness said:

Baptism questions prior to 1985 - 5/15/70 Wt p. 309

 Have you recognized yourself as a sinner and needing salvation from Jehovah God? And have you acknowledged that this salvation proceeds from him and through his ransomer, Christ Jesus?

On the basis of this faith in God and in his provision for redemption have you dedicated yourself unreservedly to Jehovah God, to do his will henceforth as that will is revealed to you through Christ Jesus and through God's Word as his holy spirit makes it plain? 

Just a wordier version of this: "On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will?" 

The questions you quoted above are discussed in detail with those considering baptism.

40 minutes ago, Witness said:

With this inclusion for legal purposes (a fact I agree on), the statement is being made that one is not a Christian unless one agrees to both questions.  This plays out in Anna’s comment:

This question is merely an auxiliary question and is self explanatory. It is similar to asking if you identify yourself as a Christian.

Well no, that's not how I meant it at all. I apologize if my comment has mislead you. In a multi religious world, one has to be clear which religion one is identifying with. In the case of "Christianity", that was simple in the 1st. Century, there was only one. But of course now there are many "Christian" denominations (therefor one has to specify which one). So I was merely trying to parallel a situation whereby one was going to make it clear which religion one belonged to, and yes, for legal purposes.

3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Rutherford's doctrines have even been traced as a factor in the growth of the Black Muslim [Nation of Islam] movement in the United States.

Interesting. Didn't know that.

On 1/6/2017 at 8:14 PM, Witness said:

“Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.”  Matt 28:19,20

On 1/6/2017 at 8:14 PM, Witness said:

"On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will?" 

So you think saying "in the name of the Father and the Son and the holy spirit" has more value than asking "On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will?" ?

What makes you think one has to repeat those exact words as quoted in Matt 28:19,20? Would that mean also that we have to repeat the exact words at Matt 6:9-14?

On 1/6/2017 at 8:14 PM, Witness said:

"Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in association with God's spirit-directed organization?"

This question is merely an auxiliary question and is self explanatory. It is similar to asking if you identify yourself as a Christian. Also, it is only fair to ask this question so that there can be no misunderstanding.

On 1/6/2017 at 8:14 PM, Witness said:

Are the above baptism questions “teaching” those to be baptized, observance toward all the things that Christ commanded us?

I don't see anything to the contrary....

8 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

but this doesn't apply to child molesters?

Of course it applies to child molesters

10 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

I mean known molesters are still being treated the same as they were before they were found out. These are also still wanting to be a part of the organization and have done so. So where does the organization hold them accountable if nothing is done?

If you are going to make these statements then please back them up with evidence. How do you know known molesters are being treated the same way as they were before they were found out? How do you know nothing is done?

10 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

leave it in Jehovah's hands" then one must also accept a murderer, drunkard, fornicator within the organization just the same.

Indeed. If there is no proof of murder, drunkenness or fornication then not even the Law can do anything about it. The congregation leaves it in Jehovah's hands until there is evidence. You now the saying, "innocent until proven guilty".

10 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

I seem to recall a "return to Jehovah" brochure that did exactly that, policing those who have faded or become inactive.  

How is that policing???

11 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

so then, does this article not point out the fact that the baptism is still valid and thus they are still connected to the organization? Their dedication isn't void because they changed their minds and decided to do/believe something else. Wouldn't you agree? 

The article is looking at it from different angle to what you assume. What it is saying is that a person cannot go back on their baptism using it as an excuse that they didn't know what they were doing, therefor their baptism didn't count. There must have been cases where a baptized Witness has claimed their baptism wasn't valid in order to avoid being disfellowshipped. So what the article is saying, that if you have once made a dedication and got baptized  and now have "tired of serving Jehovah or of living a Christian way of life" and want to go and fornicate etc. you will be disfellowshipped. What it boils down to is that someone who is known in the community as being one of Jehovah's Witnesses, and is also known to be fornicating, can no longer be called one of Jehovah's Witnesses, they are held accountable not only before Jehovah but before the congregation also. However, there exist situations where a Witness has faded and stopped associating with the congregation, and is no longer known as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in the community. Neither the elder nor members of the congregation go around policing those who no longer associate and so it is very unlikely that it will discover that this person is now living an immoral life and is celebrating all the holidays. In such a situation, they will no longer be held accountable before the congregation, but of course they will remain accountable to Jehovah (Romans 13:10 -12) Living an immoral life etc. does not undo what has already been done i.e. dedication and baptism. 

As for child baptism, Eoin has addressed that.

8 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

This leads me to a question of if a child (under the age of 16) participated in baptism, do they have the capability to understand what exactly that dedication means? Do they understand that they will not be able to claim it was invalid based upon ignorance?  

No one should get baptized and be ignorant of what they are doing, what with the 100 or so questions, and the elders going through the questions making sure the person has a clear understanding of what they are committing to.

I suppose if someone wanted to go back on their dedication, and no longer wanting to be identified as one of Jehovah's Witnesses, it wouldn't be because of ignorance, but rather because the person changed their mind and no longer believes what they believed when they got baptized....even if they were a child.

23 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

Another thing to look at with the Watchtower suspending it's public endorsement of time prophecy was the little-known confusion started by a small church in New York about Procter and Gamble in the 80’s.

This could be off topic here, but I've heard about this, and have no idea where it came from. Can you be a little more specific? I only remember in the late 80's some Witnesses not wanting to buy products made by Procter and Gamble, and when you did yourself, they would say you shouldn't because something about the company being Devil worshipers or something like that. I never paid much attention to it as I never heard anything official about this. Where did the others get the idea from?

15 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

Scripture is never stopping to learn. We all do that daily. If anything F. Franz taught me, was never stop understanding scripture. That's the key to your personal salvation.

No argument there!

On 1/2/2017 at 4:32 PM, AllenSmith said:

their updated chronology that replaced 1874, with 2043

Oh really? I didn't know that. Kind of interesting since it could coincide with the theory of the overlapping  generation.....

On 12/23/2016 at 7:10 AM, TrueTom said:

Thirty years ago I studied the Bible with a refugee from Czechoslovakia who adopted me like a grandson. I used ‘The Truth that Leads to Eternal Life’ in English, she in Czech. Several times she mentioned that Jehovah’s Witnesses in her country were the most crude and backward (she said ‘ignorant’) of people. Several times she mentioned that her book was a terrible translation.

Still now they do not have a very good translation of the "New World Translation". If fact it regularly receives criticism form the "educated". Czech is a pretty complicated language and only the well educated have proper mastery of it.  Hopefully the revised (silver) version will be much better! An interesting point though, many intellectuals and educated people balked at the communist regime in those days, and thus were made outcasts, and as a result embraced the Truth because they were looking for answers and the meaning of life. There are many stories of brothers starting studies with such individuals while in prison. Apparently even former president and playwright Vaclav Havel (who was imprisoned for his dissident views) received a witness. He is quoted as having said something to the effect of  "that all sounds very wonderful, but I don't think I can wait....I want change now"....

3 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

Armageddon has been proclaimed since 33 CE, and even closer since 1914. Where are you people learning to overshadow scripture!

You can accept your own interpretation while seeing for yourselves your erred understanding even if it's placed on print, for you. Cynicism got to love it.

If you people haven’t figured it out, it implied the START of Tribulation 

 

 

I don't think anybody is arguing about the proclamation of Armageddon. It's just the dates. Numbers. I remember a couple of years ago at our convention, one of the GB in his talk said: "We promise you, NO more dates!" And so far, as far as I know, they have kept their promise

3 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

because if something does not add up or is not convincing enough I know no one will or can force me to believe it. So it just does not stick.  God is in charge and he will use the holy spirit to teach us what is necessary.

My thoughts too

37 minutes ago, David Normand said:

I cannot read what his shirt says, but like so many opposes they are quick to criticize us, yet have nothing uplifting or meaningful to offer as an alternative. He shows by his use of a megaphone that he is not interested in what anybody else has to say, but is only interested in making sure that he is heard. 

I think it says "no matter how much you jog you will still die"

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

This is actually another point to reconsider. Looking back, the Watchtower might appear to be consistent because we can find several of these reminders in the WT going back to Bible Student days. But there is actually a fairly consistent pattern that highlights how inconsistent these reminders have been. The pattern goes like this:

• STEP 1: Early on, when the chronology doctrine is first presented, it's rather tentative, and might have some reminders about not speculating and the need for caution.
• STEP 2: Then as the doctrine has been out there a few years and gets brought up a few more times, it tends to become more sure, and almost gets set in stone.
• STEP 3: As the time period approaches more closely and it seems unlikely that all the expectations surrounding the time period could really come true in time, then we see cautious statements again, and either just before or just after the failure has past, we sometimes get outright denials that any of the things said in STEP 2, were actually said. 

When we are defending our past chronology doctrines, and non-prophet status, will point to the statements from STEP 1 and STEP 3.

Ex-JWs and "opposers" are more likely to only quote from STEP 2. This is the time period when the dates start becoming, as Russell said, "God's dates, not ours." And we see statements about how nothing can be moved by even one year without throwing off the entire plan. Or we see claims that some of these "pyramid inches" have been measured to within a fraction of an inch. Or that 1925 is even more well established than 1914. And this is of course when the period surrounding 1975 becomes more of a probability than a possibility. 1975 becomes, in effect, an "appropriate time for God to act." If we bring up the fact that Jesus said no one knows the day or the hour, we might get a snarky response that "now is not the time to be toying with Jesus' words." Etc., etc., etc.

Yes. Good observation 

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

But even here, he is right that no one said anything about Armageddon coming in 1975.

Addition to my comment above:

WT 66 10/15 p. 628

"To give aid today in this critical time to prospective sons of God,” announced President Knorr, “a new book in English, entitled ‘Life Everlasting—in Freedom of the Sons of God,’ has been published.” At all assembly points where it was released, the book was received enthusiastically. Crowds gathered around stands and soon supplies of the book were depleted. Immediately its contents were examined. It did not take the brothers very long to find the chart beginning on page 31, showing that 6,000 years of man’s existence end in 1975. Discussion of 1975 overshadowed about everything else. “The new book compels us to realize that Armageddon is, in fact, very close indeed,” said a conventioner."

I realize that this is not saying 1975 will be the start of Armageddon, but it is insinuation enough (sanctioned by the WT) to make some believe that it is indeed what is meant. Or could be meant . The is the trouble with the way the WT's are sometimes written, is that they leave so much room for speculation and personal interpretation. There is so much ambiguity, as seen by our recent discussion regarding the March 2017 study....

19 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

But even here, he is right that no one said anything about Armageddon coming in 1975.

No, but wasnt that the logical conclusion? Because isn't Armageddon the end to oppression by Satan followed by the beginning of the 1000 years of Christ's rule? Wasn't 1975 (or that period) believed to be the end of the 6,000 years and the beginning of the Jubilee?

“Life Everlasting – In Freedom of the sons of men” 1966

P. 28  under the heading “Six Thousand Years of Human Existence Now Closing” – “The time is fast drawing near for the reality that was foreshadowed by the Jubilee of liberty to be proclaimed throughout the earth to all mankind now oppressed by many enslaved things”……

P. 29 “ According to this trustworthy Bible chronology six thousand years from man’s creation will end in 1975, and the seventh period of a thousand years in human history will begin in the fall of 1975 C.E…… “So in not many years within our own generation we are reaching what Jehovah God could view as the seventh day of man’s existence.”

P. 30 “How appropriate it would be for Jehovah God to make this coming seventh period of a thousand years a Sabbath period of rest and release, a great Jubilee Sabbath for the proclaiming of liberty throughout the earth to all its inhabitants!…… “It would not be by mere chance or accident but would be according to the loving purpose of Jehovah God for the reign of Jesus Christ, the Lord of the Sabbath” to run parallel with the seventh millennium of man’s existence…… “Consequently there is now every reason why the human creation will be set free, not by men, but by Almighty God. The long awaited time for this is at hand!

9 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

The near "presence" of Jesus or angels was actually the exact explanation used for many years to explain why Rutherford could receive new doctrinal truths, and the more "modest" way of saying this was to call it "flashes of light."

Hmmmm....perhaps this is why the older generation views the GB/Slave as having some special direct communication with God, tantamount to inspiration. My Mother in law said as much. I didn't want to argue with her, after all, she is 86. There just isn't any point. And this is why perhaps in recent years, especially very recently via the WT articles we have been discussing, the GB are trying to correct that concept....

P.S. To be honest, I too held this view similar to my mother in law 20 years or so ago.

20 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

Wrong again, The WTS is consistent when reminding active witnesses NOT to be speculating, about setting dates. That list is made for that reason. The WTS uses Subject/Object Pronouns as “US” or “WE” not to seem arrogant or conceited. How would people feel if the WTS simply stated, “stop thinking stupidly”. It wouldn’t sit too well. But in essence, that’s the bottom line. 

Now you are speculating on what the WT meant! I agree, the WT is consistent in reminding Witnesses not to be speculating about setting dates. But I ask myself, why then did the WT even mention 1975? Wasn't that a date? Why was it discussed in the first place? Why even go into the calculations of 6000 years and God's rest etc.?  Was it not to highlight where we may be in the stream of time? And wasn't that speculation itself? Why even mention all of it? What significance does the date 1975 have now? (except for discussions such as this) None at all! So you can see how unnecessary it was to mention that date in the first place!

You are deceiving yourself Allen if you think that those who came up with that idea in the first place didn't have in mind that Armageddon may come in 1975. 

19 hours ago, JW Insider said:

For the first time in 20 years, the Watchtower has mentioned the "24 elders" and never specifically said in the article that they represent the 144,000. The article not only mentions them in the text, but shows a picture of them, asks the reader to look at the picture, and also merely combines them with other heavenly creatures (myriads of angels and the 4 living creatures) in a second, less direct reference. It's an unusual amount of attention drawn to the "24 elders" without any reference to their meaning.

True. And you may be on to something!

19 hours ago, JW Insider said:

*** w07 1/1 p. 28 par. 11 “The First Resurrection”—Now Under Way! ***
What, then, can we deduce from the fact that one of the 24 elders identifies the great crowd to John? It seems that resurrected ones of the 24-elders group may be involved in the communicating of divine truths today. Why is that important? Because the correct identity of the great crowd was revealed to God’s anointed servants on earth in 1935. If one of the 24 elders was used to convey that important truth, he would have had to be resurrected to heaven by 1935 at the latest. That would indicate that the first resurrection began sometime between 1914 and 1935.

I remember this WT study very well, including this particular paragraph and the sentence I underscored. It was the first time that something written in the WT really bothered me. I just had this weird feeling about it, that it just didn't sound right. In my mind I asked myself how was that meant, "communicating divine truths" ? And why would the resurrected ones communicate only some divine truths, and leave others out? This whole idea made it sound like the GB were getting some kind of visions, or ideas put in their heads (by the other members of the GB who had died). This did not sound right at all since the only helper Jesus said his father would give us was the holy spirit. And we can all be the beneficiaries of that, not just the GB. And we don't get visions or dreams so why would the GB get exclusive treatment when still on earth? The only time they differ from "us" is that they have "been called to heaven", I am not aware of any scripture which indicates that the GB would "receive divine truths" by some communication from heaven. In fact they have to work hard at discerning Bible truths, as they themselves have indicated.  This whole communication idea just sounded off and out of sinc with everything else. And in any case, I do not understand why there is any relevance placed on when the first resurrection began. I am thinking, who cares? How does this affect anything else? Jehovah knows when he resurrects, why do we need to know?

It will be interesting to see if we are given a new understanding of the identity of the 24 elders. If they are no longer seen as the 144'000, then perhaps Rev 7:13-14 will remove the need to think that the anointed in heaven are communicating with those still on earth.

20 hours ago, JW Insider said:

So that's the background to this particular conjecture -- and that's all it is, conjecture.

Thankfully our reasoning on many matters such as the ones you mention has become so much more reasonable. But I agree, it definitely looks like there might be some change in the pipeline and this WT study might be a kind of " trial balloon" .

20 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Think of congregation elders, circuit overseers, Branch Committee members, and the members of the Governing Body. Our brothers and sisters in the first century had high regard for those appointed to take the lead, and we feel similarly today. We do not idolize well-known representatives of the Christian congregation or react in their presence as if angels were standing nearby.

I am not sure I think this has some kind of significance. I understand this to mean simply that we shouldn't idolize them as if they were angels, because they are not.

Well.......thank you for making me suffer! Just kidding

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

I'm not saying that the words of Matthew 24:45 and Luke 12:42 should not also apply to the Governing Body, or even all who profess to be of the anointed, but there is no Biblical reason to limit it. In a practical way, all of us are expected to understand that we are obedient in our service to the Master, and all of us are expected to show patience and to carry out our responsibilities of service in a serious and orderly manner

You are right, there does not seem a Biblical reason to limit it, more of a logical and practical reason as in "feeding many through the hands of a few"  https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/w20130715/jesus-feeds-many/    But I do understand how it pertains to all of us in the sense that it is the responsibility of all (as per the March WT you referenced).

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

How many of these 30 "anointed" members of the Governing Body do we expect to be here when Jesus returns? 7, 4, 2, maybe even just 1 (or less)?

I was always under the impression that they would be put in charge of all the master's belongings when they were all in heaven anyway.....?

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

I say this because all Jesus asked us to do was imagine a situation where a rich and harsh* master counts on some of his servants to be obedient to keep things going smoothly when he is gone. Jesus doesn't say that he is the rich and harsh master in the illustration, any more than he says that he is a thief in the previous illustration. Jesus wants us to imagine what would happen if those persons who were left in charge of the food supply of that household began taking advantage and over-eating, and getting drunk, and ordering other servants around to do their own bidding instead of the instructions of their master. When the master returns he is going to be mad enough to chop some of them in half, literally. But if servants remain faithful in these circumstances, the master will be pleased enough to reward them.

You raise some valid points.