Anna

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

To speak of them as "Our beloved Governing Body" is a clear acceptance of stratification and classification, to those who are clergy and to those who are layman.

I must admit I have not heard anyone express themselves about the collective brothers on the GB as if they were one person.. Usually the brothers will say: "the brothers at HQ", or "the brothers who are taking the lead", when referring to the GB. I am sure Shirley meant each individual, as she later qualified her statement by saying she met some of the members individually.
The GB view themselves individually as the "domestics" just like all brothers and sisters are the "domestics" when it comes to spiritual nourishment. Collectively though, they do apply to themselves the term the slave or GB. None one of them can act independently, but only as a body. There has to be majority vote for any any organizational or doctrinal  decission to pass. But I am sure you already know this

3 hours ago, Shirley Lowery said:

So never question Jehovah!!!!!

Dear sister, I don't think anyone here was questioning Jehovah.

56 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

Or is the idea not to have any plans

I think the idea IS to have plans. But personally I don't think we should need plans as God can save anyone anywhere at any time regardless where they are.

56 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

Will they just go into total panic as the GB watch the Organsation fall ? 

Only the ones who "worship" the organization might panic.

56 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

So how do your GB intend to communicate ? After all it seems that none of you believe in miracles anymore. 

I think at that time supernatural things WILL happen, because after all, Armageddon will be from a supernatural source, and to survive it, will have to involve miracles.

8 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Well, that ubiquitous response (God allowed) when there is no right/precise answer is not the answer that solves the dilemma.

If the dilemma is whether there is a right/precise answer, then "God allowing" things does not solve it. If you believe there IS a right and precise answer then there is no dilemma, you just have to keep looking until you find it.

8 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

So why do you think the 'mistakes' of the Watchtower / JWs is any different ?  

Because the mistakes that the WT has made are not comparable to the mistakes Christendom has made. Read history. See the results past and present. 

8 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

No, what was achieved and is still achieved is FEAR.  FEAR of being disfellowshipped, cast out, losing all,

It seems only those JWs who have a bad conscience are afraid.

8 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Remember the lie, 'You must be a baptised JW to be saved'  Then add to that another lie,  'Armageddon is 'definitely coming in your life time'.  What result do you get ? You get people having to carry a heavy load and living in fear of being disfellowshipped.  

I don't see how being baptised and living your life as if Armageddon will come in your lifetime is a bad thing. Didn't Jesus say we should become his followers and disown ourselves?

"Then Jesus said to his disciples: “If anyone wants to come after me, let him disown himself and pick up his torture stake and keep following me" Matt 16:24.

7 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

No Anna, your GB and it's Org are the ones doing it by misusing scripture. 

Do you honestly think God and Christ would deliberately mislead millions of people that want to serve them ? 

I think the situation that was raised was that of: "a fairly successful method of keeping people in a state of anticipation".

You are familiar with the scriptures that urge Christians to be in a state of anticipation. I don't think I need to quote them all here. 

Of course I do not think mistakes are from God or Jesus. But they obviously allowed them. 

By whatever misguided means this state of anticipation was achieved throughout decades by the organization is not the question here. The fact is it was achieved and still is being achieved. No one can accuse the JWs of not being "on the watch". 

4 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

And you think that God, through Christ, needs to do that ? 

They are doing that; through the scriptures

4 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

But in truth you know it is done purely for power and money. 

I do not think that.

13 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

it is a fairly successful method of keeping people in a state of anticipation

Yes, I think that's the idea.

9 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

It is interesting to read how author of article said this:  However, discussions of human laws on same-sex marriage relate to a political issue, not a moral one.

The whole point is that anyone can do whatever they want. 

Only if a person wants to serve Jehovah, then they must abide by his rules. They must hate what Jehovah hates. 

This is why it can be said that JWs are neutral with respect to what the world does. But they are definitely not neutral with respect to what the congregation does.

3 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

congregants have taken that message to millions of people in the world.

The only message I know of is the message of the Good News and salvation for all those who want to live under God's Kingdom.

3 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

The message that has been spread so far and wide has been LIES

Are you calling God a liar then? Are you saying God's Kingdom won't come? I find that disturbing.

"As President of the United States, George Washington proclaimed the first nationwide thanksgiving celebration in America marking November 26, 1789, "as a day of public thanksgiving and prayer, to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many and signal favours of Almighty God"  wikipedia.

As you know, Jehovah's Witnesses don't need a special day to thank God. They do this every day. They definitely don't need George Washington to tell them when to do it.

As for eating turkey on that day, there's nothing wrong with that of course. Jehovah’s Witnesses can eat turkey any day they want.

12 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Everyone gets one failed end-date call within a lifetime. It’s in the rules. It’s a sign of staying alert.

Yes. It's natural for every generation to want to live to see all the good promises fulfilled in their lifetime. With the right attitude, this should not be a disturbing thing to anyone, at best. At worst, it is a disappointment when it doesn't happen and can make you downhearted temporarily. With the wrong attitude it can make people angry and throw out the baby with the bath water.

16 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Then you would have to agree, the ARC is NOT a good role model,

I didn't say anything about the ARC being a good role model. It merely helped us to see areas where we could improve. 

16 hours ago, César Chávez said:

However, you seem to imply, the Watchtower only reacted after the ARC inquiry

Yes, the WT did react to the suggestions of the ARC. I know because I listened to the whole thing, I heard the suggestions, and I could see those exact suggestions were being implemented in the 2016 WT study, and the "Child protection" packet on the website. This had never been done before the ARC inquiry. There was never one place accessible to everyone outlining our policies regarding child protection. It was always in articles here and there, and in letters to the elders. Never in one place like this. Now everyone can be on the same page. The changes that were made were changes suggested by the ARC.

16 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Does that mean, witnesses should be dismissive of ALL the Watchtower publications and ALL the Body of Elder letters posted after 1970?

Of course not. The old advice was good advice. But it lacked in certain areas, and those areas were identified in the ARC hearing. After the 2016 WT study article, many brothers and sisters were extremely grateful for it.

1 hour ago, César Chávez said:

please explain how God used secular authority in Australia to allow Australia to "hide" the sexual abuse taking place at their own government owned centers to be hidden by Australia's authority

I don't know anything about that. All I know is that after ARC, we published the child protection packet on our website, and had WT study articles discussing child sexual abuse in the congregation,  something that had not been done before....

5 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

 may not be attacks by an 'enemy' but maybe a cleansing by God through Christ.  It would come in the form of punishment to those that have allowed themselves to sin in such ways.

Possible. Jehovah has used "worldly" authorities before to put his people on the right track. Regarding the protection, and handling of child sexual abuse, the ARC has definitely helped us to make clearer and transparent information available to all in the congregation, not just the elders. 

11 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Do these represent separate attacks? Not likely. The Bible is no doubt referring to the same attack under different names. Why can we draw that conclusion? Because the Scriptures tell us that all the nations of the earth will be involved in this final attack that prompts the war of Armageddon.

What they are saying is that the final attack (that prompts Armageddon) is not made up of separate attacks.

10 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Do WTJWorg GB consider as an "attack under different names" also; many lawsuits against WT, all sorts of inquiries on WTJWorg policies and procedures from Police in many countries, from ARC in Australia, from The Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse (IICSA) England and Wales etc?

I don't know. But regardless who the attacks come from, they are usually because JWs do not compromise Bible principles. 

As for the inquiry into CSA, it is usually the intention of the inquiring institution to help establish better policies, to protect children, not to ban or persecute Jehovah's Witnesses. As you know, this involves many other establishments, not just JWs. So I would say this would not be considered an attack. Some of the advice was considered very good advice and JWs have taken that advice on board, as long as it did not go against Bible principles. 

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

WT GB theology, supposedly biblically grounded, and most important, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit as GB say, explains why people suffer, why there is great evil in the world, and especially why the followers of Christ are subjected to persecution, especially from 1914 till now .
In addition to the general explanation that humans are imperfect because of Adam and Eve sin, there is also the interpretation how satan and demons generate evil and are behind all attacks on JW members. Recently, the focus has been on Russia, and still is. For example, this two quotes say:

During the 2019 annual meeting, Brother Mark Sanderson of the Governing Body delivered the talk entitled “What Do We Have to Fear?” The talk included this video segment with experiences from some of our brothers and sisters who have been persecuted in Russia. - https://www.jw.org/ase/news/jw/region/russia/No-Reason-to-Fear-Persecution/

As Russian authorities continue to fabricate lies to discredit our reputation as peace-loving people, we recall the words of Jesus, who foretold that opposers would “lyingly say every sort of wicked thing against” his disciples.—Matthew 5:11. - https://www.jw.org/ase/news/jw/region/russia/witnesses-framed-extremist-weapons-20181019/

What said the teaching?

Many people reject God because they blame him for suffering. Directly or indirectly, many religious leaders have taught that God is the cause of our suffering. But is it possible that religious leaders have misrepresented God? What if God has rejected them? God does not cause our suffering. God rejects religion that misrepresents him. This includes religions that teach that God causes our suffering and those that are involved with warfare and violence. - https://www.jw.org/ase/library/magazines/awake-no2-2020-jul-aug/is-god-to-blame-for-our-suffering/

According to the latest explanation of who “Gog of Magog” is, JW members have learned that it is not Satan, but that it is a “coalition of the people”. Russia also belongs to this "coalition".
In his TV sermon, D. Splane, as a “guardian of doctrine,” reads a passage from Ez. 38: 4 with explanation how JHVH talk words to this "coalition of nation". It says:  "I will turn you around, put hooks in your jaws and bring you out with your whole army—your horses, your horsemen fully armed, and a great horde with large and small shields, all of them brandishing their swords." 

D. Splane explained the idea how "coalition of nation" didn't want to attack His nation, but JHVH redirected direction of "coalition". He said: "Timing of the attack is Jehovah's .. as some point following the destruction of Babylon The Great, Jehovah may in some way lure the nations into carrying out what is already in their hearts. Jehovah will thus set the stage for the attach that leads to Armageddon ......."   Ez 38:10 state:  You will advance against my people Israel like a cloud that covers the land. In days to come, Gog, I will bring you against my land, so that the nations may know me when I am proved holy through you before their eyes.

How else do WT publications answer the question of why people (JW members) suffer?

Humans bear a heavy responsibility for suffering. Some suffering is brought on by our own choices. Suffering is not punishment from God. On the contrary, much of it is random—often, a matter of someone being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Our sinful nature contributes to suffering. - https://www.jw.org/ase/library/magazines/awake-no2-2020-jul-aug/blame-for-own-suffering/

JW suffer in Russia not need to have nothing with GB claims, how they are the only true religion and because they follow Jesus, as reasons for Russian Government ban on WTJWorg. Because, supposedly, Russia as all other governments that are part of "coalition of nations" want to harm WTJWorg because they are True Religion Organization. 

Is the ban of WTJWorg in 34 countries around the world an attack by a “coalition of nations”? Was it, Is it "timing is Jehovah's"? Who cause suffer for JW in Russia ? Russia or because JHVH brought them against "his land"? Is this Russian attack on " JW True Religion" contrary to GB idea how "UN will attack false religion first and at the end they will attack the "true religion"? Because in reality, all sorts of religion ("true and/or false") have experienced attack through the centuries. 

Does the attack of the "coalition" at this time, not recognize the difference between "true and false religion", and mistakenly persecute WTJWorg? What is wrong with their "attack timing"? Didn't they read the WT study magazines, because according to it, they must first start destroying all "false religions" and not create problems for "true religion"? 

 

 

There is a simple explanation to your questions. The attack on JWs in Russia is not considered to be the attack that will happen during the great tribulation. What is happening in Russia is viewed as regular persecution. Perhaps close to the great tribulation, but not quite.

It is true that other religions are also being targeted. But nowhere as much, and with such viciousness as the JWs. And yes, throughout the centuries Christians (and others) have been persecuted, but only those who did not support the system. On the contrary, the leaders of Babylon the Great love to share a bed with Kings and politicians, and always have.

54 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I haven’t done that yet. (Didn’t know it was possible)  But perhaps I should. After all, there is nothing new under the sun.

I choose to ignore the content without the "You've chosen to ignore content by ........."    You can try that one too 😄  You don't have to read everything you see in front of your eyes,. But then you are in the wrong forum, if you ignore posters here, in the JW open, then you might as well not be here 😄

4 hours ago, Emma Rose said:

Actually, i may have gotten Derek confused with Tom, c'est la vie, we all make mistakes.

Why would I suddenly not understand Tom's sense of humour if I have been posting on here for as long as Tom?  I also messaged you to let you know who is who since you were new here. That should have told you that I was familiar with most of the posters.

But I will give you the benefit of the doubt 🙂

Why is it so hard, for some of the JWs on here to simply admit that yes, 1975 was a debacle, and a  mistake made by  imperfect people, eager to see the new world. There is nothing wrong with that kind of eagerness. Rather than denying and defending that 1975 was not a debacle, why not talk about what this teaches us, and how it can help us on a personal level to avoid getting sweap up by that kind of reasoning in the future? If the conventions suddenly started mentioning 1930 as a possible date for Armageddon, because of some calculations pertaining to the generation, for example (or any other calculations for thay matter) how would we react? Emma mentioned we would just wait and see. Well yes, that is definitely an answer, and can be the answer for absolutely anything  that we are not sure about. But maybe it should go deeper than that. Maybe we should look at ourselves, and refresh the reasons why we are in the truth in the first place. Like those who are now ex-JWs should have done prior to 1975...

1 hour ago, César Chávez said:

understand what was being discussed since 1966 and what the Assembly talks were related to time chronology and the 6000 years,

I have a feeling you are not being entirely honest. Have you listened to Charles Sinutko's talk? If so, what do you have to say about it? And tell me, how many times did he mentioned the year 1975, and in what context?

1 hour ago, Emma Rose said:

Mind you, it does allow each individual to reach their own conclusion and that is how I accord dignity to my fellow listeners and generally it opens up a variety of pathways for dialogue

Thus far, I've seen it open up a variety of confusion 🙂

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

It is initially shocking to see ones taunting the Most High,

It is shocking, but then should we be surprised when people do that? After all, it wouldn't be the first time.

2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

 all the more so when they purposefully make themselves obtuse about how God works with and through humans. The fact that they have nothing to offer that is better doesn’t phase them in the slightest,

I have stopped reading those kind of posts a long time ago.....if Derek intends to stay here, maybe he should do the same.

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

No, you don’t go calling people rats and idiots, nor judge just who is to die, for that is not our place. But he displays righteous indignation

This is not a place for that kind of righteous indignation. This is a place for discussion. If he feels righteously indignant, then he should be able to express that in ways that makes a person think. Otherwise the discussion may just end up being:

"You're an idiot"

"No, you're' and idiot"  etc....

So you are right, he does not belong here.

5 hours ago, derek1956 said:

To answer your question about someone knocking on my door, no chance I was in the forces and no civilians was allowed on base, I was in Cyprus at the time

It was a hypothetical situation I used for the sake of illustration. Or did you really assume I thought I knew your circumstances?

And if you think you are being humorous with your reply, then I don't believe that, it appears more like you have nothing better to say. 

If you don't have a proper answer, then it's ok to say you don't know. After all, you have been lecturing others about humility...

18 minutes ago, Emma Rose said:

Anna...sadly I don't think you have a sense of humour.  

I don't call what Derek posts a sense of humour either. Calling people rats, idiots, and judging that they will die....is that a sense of humour to you? 

Sadly, not only do I think he lacks a sense of humour, but he evidently lacks in other departments too....

Now Tom, there's a sense of humour 👍