Anna

Funny you should say that because after listening to the video for the 3rd time (!)(we had it as our local needs item on Tuesday) I was beginning to see why you used that explanation, and it started to make sense to me. I don't think you were wrong. The thing is, obviously br. Glockentin didn't just get up there and speak off the cuff. He had a script, and that script was obviously vetted by the GB. The point is, when members of the GB speak, they do not want to appear like they are praising themselves, they leave that up to the helpers or someone else (I thought it was funny when some months ago one of the GB read out a private letter addressed to them, where Br. Christensen is thanking them and praising them) Br. Glockentin's talk reminds me of a situation in the past where the GB begun to be worried they might be losing the trust of the flock. I think you know which period I am talking about. Just as a side point; I thought the talk had an irrelevant title, "do not lie" yet it had nothing to do with counsel about how we should avoid lying to oneanother but everything to do with how others lie, and how we should avoid them....

It's not that God is giving separate and advanced knowledge about covid to the GB. The GB collect information from worldly experts just like anyone else can. But the difference is that many people do not consider the Bible's wisdom in their lives. All that the GB are doing is applying scriptures a.k.a wisdom from God. For example, Br. Morris quoted Proverbs 14:16 "The wise one is cautious and turns away from evil,But the stupid one is reckless* and overconfident." and applied it to covid 19 in that recklessness and overconfidence have literally cost people their lives. Then he quoted Ecclesiastes 7:12 "For wisdom is a protection just as money is a protection, but the advantage of knowledge is this: Wisdom preserves the life of its owner." He said our aim is to make wise balanced decisions that protect lives. The next scripture was Proverbs 22:3 "The shrewd one sees the danger and conceals himself,But the inexperienced keep right on going and suffer the consequences" to which he said that we should not develop a casual attitude. So all he did was apply these scriptures to the present covid situation and encouraged everyone else to do the same. He urged that we must not have a casual attitude. He said this because many people are relaxing in their caution, including probably the brothers and sisters. All that the GB are doing is reminding people that covid is NOT over. We hear the same from worldly media. We also know that countries which have relaxed their restrictions are facing a covid come back. Countries are relaxing restrictions so that people can get back to work. It is vital for the economy. But as Br. Morris said, we care about life more than money. So it's no so much that God is giving separate info to GB, anyone has access to the Bible, the same info, but it's more like the GB are paying attention to it and applying it, and urging us to do the same because many in the world are not. Here is the video: #en/mediaitems/StudioNewsReports/docid-702020283_1_VIDEO" ipsnoembed="true" rel="external nofollow">https://www.jw.org/en/library/videos/#en/mediaitems/StudioNewsReports/docid-702020283_1_VIDEO

I will tell you why: because if I go out and commit immorality and I am found out, and I am not repentant I will be disfellowshipped. Thousands are disfelowshipped every year for unrepentant immorality. If you think you can stop people from being immoral then you are being very unrealistic. The only thing that can be done is revoke membership. Which is what is being done. What's your argument with that?

That is exactly how I feel. I hazzard a guess that I'm not the only one. It has actually been one of the things that I have found difficult to get my head around. I am glad that others see this paradox as well. What I find concerning though is when the same people who see the illogicality of it will then say something to the effect that they will just obey regardless. That's a bit scary. I like the way you explained what you think might have been the steps to rectify this situation. I meant to reply to your other comment a few days ago, just haven't got around to it yet!

This statement has been mocked by those who think it sounds cult-like. Like, 'drink this spiked kool-aid even if you don't agree.' To avoid additional embarrassment from detractors, the GB have likely been looking for a some practical example that makes sense even to the detractors. So they would have been hoping for something to come up that could be used to explain this statement in a more natural, easy-to-understand context, that didn't sound scary from a "cultish" perspective. So, it was serendipitous that someone had said that preparing for Covid in their country made no sense to them until it spiked just a few weeks later. Then they understood that the GB direction saved lives. I understood that bit, lol. It's this bit I wasn't sure about and how it related to the first part:

I am not quite sure what you mean. You might need to explain it from another angle. Sorry, it's my fault. Usually I am on the same wavelength as you.

You have a point there

I don't think they put two and two together.... I wonder why he had the need to add that "correction" Yes, I noticed that too and wondered what this had to do with the covid situation. Following those instructions makes perfect sense from a human perspective! Unless by human perspective the GB mean anyone who is naive and of lesser intelligence, or someone who lives in a cave.. However, those who follow the developments in the world and read the guidelines as proposed by human agencies (as you mentioned) will know this pandemic is by no means over, and may last a very long time. We don't need the GB telling us what we already know. However, we do appreciate their reminders and concern. But to cloak this in a way that insinuates they have more knowledge, when all they do is follow the same developments that are accessible for anyone else to read and study, is....well, funny. As an after thought, they do mention following the guidelines of these human agencies. So this is just such a bad example of "might not make sense from a human stand point" because they kind of contradict themselves half way through. When this phrase was used in connection with instructions for the GT, where we might be told by the GB to do something that "doesn't make sense from a human stand point", is it something like this they had in mind? Lol. Food for thought more than anything 🤪

Continued.... So going back to the brother who asked the question; "how we would feel if suddenly Jehovah stopped existing". I wonder how we would feel if suddenly if the GB stopped existing? Would we fall apart? Yes, well said. Yes. And funny you mentioned too many chiefs and not enough Indians, I was going to mention that very phrase, lol. Actually, I was going to say you can't have more chiefs than Indians. Same thing. Going back to the fear of apostates, it makes me wonder why they (the GB) are so afraid, to the point of putting the fear of God in you if you so much as glance at something apostate related. That has always bothered me a bit. Are they afraid that their influence be undermined? That people will lose trust in them? If that is so, where then does the trust in Jehovah figure? Are we not supposed to trust Jehovah more than any man? Does it not reveal that our trust may lie more in the GB than Jehovah? Recently, in one of the study articles it was mentioned that idolizing someone (the reference was to the GB) could become a stumbling block if that someone falls away. Is it then not better to see the "contrasting view" because that might help us be more realistically grounded. And as JWI alluded (I think it was JWI) why try and "hide" something unless we are ashamed of it (meaning the GB) and why not be candid and transparent? Why have all this "secret" stuff for the apostates to dig up and wave around? Stuff that the GB does not want us to read? Do they think our faith in Jehovah is so fragile? When you believe in God, then this inevitably leads to questions about his purpose for us and the meaning of life. This in turn leads to an analysis of writings which claim to explain that. This leads to admitting that the Bible has the most intelligent explanation, and that Jehovah's Witnesses are the only ones who adhere to all of it despite some personal sacrifice on their part. When you do not accept there is a God, like Amber, all that is no longer relevant. Of course those who no longer believe there is a God fall back on so called "scientific proof" . And yes. There are things that don't quite add up about the timeline of the flood, the fossil record, and the age of man, etc. but despite that, even JTR, who believes in evolution (with a helping hand from Jehovah) is still with us. For any intelligent person there is more proof of the existence of God than there isn't. Those who deny the existence of God do it more for personal reasons than because of science. When it comes down to the crunch, in the end, things are always personal, even if people try to imply some other noble cause or scientific enlightenment, or apostate reasoning. So what are the GB so afraid of?

Wow Tom, that was a long reply! At first I thought it was JWI 😂. I am just playing, no disrespect to either of you, I do the same I know, especially when I get in my rant mode. Gotcha! I think you meant that Jehovah will raise up a prophet like Moses in reference to Jesus, the future Messiah. Which shows that Jesus became the "greater" Moses. What does that make the GB? That is why I don't think they can be viewed as Moses. Jesus already filled that role. We both agree they have some similar tasks in leading the people organizationally, and providing Bible literature, but as for having the status of being Jehovah's "mouthpiece", (or similar) I am not so sure about that. Many friends do think that, probably because the GB in the past have referred to themselves in that way. Is it any wonder then that some have this idea that the GB are more than what they actually are. And this can create problems, and has created problems where people leave the Truth because of this erroneous understanding. You inadvertently point out the problem: (in bold) Those in the crowd might be less inclined to view things that way if the GB were NOT behind a curtain in the first place. And saying things like "we are Jehovah's mouthpiece" and "we will give you instructions that may not make sense from a human stand point" do not help. But I agree with this though: I write supportively, as a apologist. Rolf writes as an investigative reporter When I said the above, I was not comparing you to Furuli. By publications I meant the WT etc. I meant you could write them. Anyone with some intelligence and Bible knowledge could. My example was to show that the spiritual food provided by the GB is nothing that isn't there already (in the Bible). Just made more understandable and applicable in practical terms, which you could do as well. (in fact as we know, the writing department does all this, the GB merely proofread and put their stamp of approval on it). So how can it be said that God is communicating through the GB, (the FDS) if it's nothing new, and if you could do the same? That is what my argument was about. But you already explained what you meant. Thanks (blushing modestly). No but seriously, it has done me some good too, I feel the same way: Just gives you a broader view. I think any and all knowledge is beneficial, whether to deter you from doing bad, or encouraging you to do good. But then am I reasoning like Adam? Why would he want to eat from the tree of knowledge? Hmmmm..... That's off topic, but maybe it could make an interesting topic! I thought you quit that long ago. I have. There is no point. Maybe Reddit is different and compels you more to respond. I don't read Reddit. There is only one apostate forum I check on every now and again just to see if there is anything new. Not in their reasoning, that's the same old, but they are the first with leaked videos etc. That forum is more like a club where people of like mind associate. It helps them to cope with what they've left behind as they find encouragement from people of like mind and situation. If there is a JW club, (not here, I mean JW-Talk) you know there has to be an ex- JW club too. Yes. And poor Amber. I do actually feel sorry for her. (bold mine) "Why wasn't she better prepared for the contrasting view"? Yes, it may have helped. But have you ever wondered why the likes of me, you, JWI, Arauna, Outta Here, ComfortMyPeople, b4ucuhear, JTR and others, although we have become familiar with the "contrasting view" we have not gone "rogue"? I have though about this quite a bit and my opinion is that those who fall away, do so not necessarily because they find out something "shocking" and thus lose faith, but because they find out something that gives them an excuse to fall away because they were already subconsciously that way inclined. Amber was unhappy in her marriage. I think overall she was not content with her life, hence looking for something different (China). Then comes along a charming kindred spirit that "opens her eyes" to the wonders of another world outside the JWs. She falls in love. And there you have it. The perfect end to a concoction to finally do what she really wanted. I can't speak for the others, but I have no need for any of that. I suppose I have matured enough now to see through these things. And yes, really making the Truth your own is key. Ok, I don't want do a Peter here and say we can never be stumbled and fall away, we can, but I would hope it would be a temporary lapse like it was with Peter. We are all weak in varying respects....but what is there outside of Jehovah? A brother asked the other week for us to imagine for a moment how we would feel if suddenly Jehovah stopped existing. I know how I felt. Is that perhaps another key to understanding why some leave and some stay despite man's (GB) imperfections? Got to go, will continue later.

I am not sure, but do you mean that God communicates with us through the GB? If you do, then I do not agree. I do not think the GB are like Moses, or any prophet who Jehovah used in the past to communicate with his people the Israelites. Jesus did away with all that, he is the only high priest, and we have the holy spirit to help us. This goes for both the annointed and the great crowd. Not much difference in my opinion. Now do I agree there has to be organizational leadership, yes. I also think there has to be someone who makes sure the Bible is followed and upheld. So the GB calling themselves "guardians of the doctrine" as per Br. Jackson is ok too. Also the "spiritual feeding" is understandable as well, as long as it's not made up food and is always based on the Bible. But as for communication, well doesn't Jehovah communicate with us through his written word? I know whenever this is discussed "Bible publications" are brought up, which is also ok, but those publications are not rocket science. You could write them. Would it then mean that God was communicating through you? Not unless you wrote something which was an interpretation of a scripture. And we know what happens with that, some were wrongly interpreted. That's hardly Jehovah passing on information. Sorry if this sounds like a rant. I finally convinced my hubby that the GB are like the rest of us, except somebody has to take the lead....and the great thing is actually, GB agree with me 😁

That was what I wondered too. Assuming he sent the book to the GB first, then he must want the GB to reform. If that's the case, and it would be the most logical assumption, then why publish it for everyone else to read? And if he sent it to the GB first, and didn't get a response, then is publishing it a tantrum, for being ignored?

So what exactly was debunked?

I can't remember it being debunked. I though we had researched it and found the photograph was genuine. Someone also inquired of the brothers who were familiar with the situation in Chile and they confirmed it...

Daniel 29:30 says a kingdom will rule OVER the earth: But after you another kingdom will rise, inferior to you; then another kingdom, a third one, of copper, that will rule over the whole earth. As @Outta Here already explained, you can rule on or over and it doesn't make much difference in the context under discussion. However, grammatically I would prefer to rule over @4Jah2me if I become Queen of England, not on him. In any case, it is quite clear Revelation 5:10 is talking about pesons in heaven. If we were to apply it to an earthly scene, Jehovah would literally have to be seated on a throne ON earth in order for Jesus, "the lamb who was slaughtered" to be seated next to him ON earth. We know Jesus went to heaven and sat at the right hand of God in heaven. We also know that Jesus promised his followers in the 1st century that they would be seated next to him. We know there is a heavenly hope. So for clarities sake it is more accurate to say they will be ruling over the earth rather than on it. Evidently, saying on the earth is confusing, as made evident by the need to make this a topic for discussion in the first place.

Hey sneaky Tom, I'm not going to fall for that one, which Wednesday?

Look y'all, all I'm interested in is: When is Armagedon coming?

I guess the answer depends on what you interpret as damage. It's complicated because not everyone gets damaged by the same thing. It also depends on our ability to forgive.

To be honest I was surprised that you bothered replying and addressing some of the things he raised, but I admire you for it. I just don't have the patience for what seems like completely ridiculous ideas....but I did read your replies to him. Lately I find myself not bothering to reply to others like Witness for example when she says that buying liquor (Morris) is a sign of not being sound in mind. I just can't be bothered to defend ridiculous statements any more.... I would like to respond to more of what you say but I will have to wait till I can have my PC back. Trying to do this on the phone is awful.

Yes, I agree. But it is inevitable that the "truth" will come out over time. When that happens, you are either shocked and stumbled right out (of the truth) because you cannot believe that someone who was held up as almost perfect is not, and therefore cannot be from God. Or you are realistic, you see through the "demeanor preservation", you know that those providing the lead are imperfect as any of us, and that mistakes will be made, including obfuscation and lack of transparency. So when something does come out, you will not be shocked or stumbled. You are not going to leave. You are going to put your trust in Jehovah....He will never disappoint, and he sees everything. So stay calm and carry on 🙂

I have finally got around to reading some of Furuli's book. On Page 67 Furuli argues that the slave wasn't appointed, because the appointment is in the future. He quotes July 2013 WT par. 18 where it says "In the verses that lead up to Matthew 24:46, the word “coming” refers consistently to the time when Jesus comes to pronounce and execute judgment during the great tribulation. (Matt. 24:30, 42, 44) Also, as we considered in paragraph 12, Jesus’ ‘arriving’ mentioned at Matthew 25:31 refers to that same future time of judgment. So it is reasonable to conclude that Jesus’ arrival to appoint the faithful slave over all his belongings, mentioned at Matthew 24:46, 47, also applies to his future coming, during the great tribulation." It seems to me that Furuli misunderstood, because the paragraph is not saying the slave will be appointed in the future, but that it will be appointed over ALL of Christ's belongings in the future. That is if they prove faithful. It is similar to the slaves who were given talents. When the master came to inspect, he rewarded those slaves who did business with the talents by giving them more. Similarly when Jesus comes, he rewards the FDS when he sees they have been giving food at the proper time: “Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time? Happy is that slave if his master on coming finds him doing so! Truly I say to you, he will appoint him over all his belongings.- Matthew 24:45-47 Then Furuli says "And logically, the faithful and discreet slave could not have been appointed in 1919, when there was no GB and no group of anointed who distributed spiritual food." But that's not how I understood it. I thought there was always someone distributing spiritual food, with Russel being the one who "opened the way" and then Rutherford and others after him who published Bible literature. Wasn't that the food? I must admit I didn't read further because I ran out of time, so maybe I am jumping the gun. Maybe he explains it in the next section "THE FAITHFUL AND DISCREET SLAVE" IN CONTEXT. Stay tuned 😁

Well said Arauna

I will let you know

Thank you for putting it all in colour. It looks pretty.

Well that's what we are doing right now. Just finishing season 2. It never occurred to me, although it did make me remember how we used to read or watch this kind of history and wonder who might have been the FDS, if any, during that time period. That idea was based on the old definition of the FDS: any of the anointed remnant who were alive at any given time anywhere on earth. We used to say that there were always some anointed at all times, somewhere on the earth, who could be considered the faithful and discreet slave. I think you may have misunderstood me. My fault probably. I wasn't thinking of the anointed or FDS through the ages, but of the FDS in modern times. I was thinking of the "power" the old and new set of GB/FDS have which could be compared to the king. The current GB/FDS "rule" over more than 8 million people. In anything they do, they, like the king, have God's backing. If anyone speaks against them, it's like speaking against God. This has been said many times in our publications, of course not in these words. Yes, of course. And whenever this is discussed, the GB tries to make sure that this is understood. But then on the other hand, when there is talk of "God's visible" organization, the GB are at the forefront of that organization. It's like no one really knows where to draw the line, and I think that's the crux of the problem. You kind of address it here: And you further address the dilemma here (bold mine) So what's the solution? A book?? 😁 (I don't think so. Although I must admit I am looking forward to reading it)