Anna

On 7/7/2020 at 11:26 PM, JW Insider said:

I fear I might have been wrong about the intended un-scary use of the Covid19 scenario

Funny you should say that because after listening to the video for the 3rd time (!)(we had it as our local needs item on Tuesday) I was beginning to see why you used that explanation, and it started to make sense to me. I don't think you were wrong.

On 7/7/2020 at 11:26 PM, JW Insider said:

I'm sure the GB themselves would be much more careful about their wording so that it doesn't come across as manipulative. He surely means well, but probably doesn't realize what we would think of any other organization for trying to create "proof" out of such types of reasoning.

9 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

How could a JW in the Org, that knows all the immorality within the CCJW,  pray to God with a clean conscience ? 

I will tell you why: because if I go out and commit immorality and I am found out, and I am not repentant I will be disfellowshipped. Thousands are disfelowshipped every year for unrepentant immorality. If you think you can stop people from being immoral then you are being very unrealistic. The only thing that can be done is revoke membership. Which is what is being done. What's your argument with that?

22 hours ago, JW Insider said:

 this could sound even worse, admitting that we must be ready to obey fallible, mistaken direction.

That is exactly how I feel. I hazzard a guess that I'm not the only one. It has actually been one of the things that I have found difficult to get my head around. I am glad that others see this paradox as well. What I find concerning though is when the same people who see the illogicality of it will then say something to the effect that they will just obey regardless. That's a bit scary. 

I like the way you explained what you think might have been the steps to rectify this situation. I meant to reply to your other comment a few days ago, just haven't got around to it yet!

51 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

*** w13 11/15 p. 20 par. 17 Seven Shepherds, Eight Dukes—What They Mean for Us Today ***
At that time, the life-saving direction that we receive from Jehovah’s organization may not appear practical from a human standpoint. All of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether these appear sound from a strategic or human standpoint or not. (4) Now is the time for any who may be putting their trust in secular education, material things, or human institutions to adjust their thinking.

*** ws13 11/15 p. 20 par. 17 Seven Shepherds, Eight Dukes—What They Mean for Us Today ***
At that time, the direction that you receive from Jehovah’s organization may seem strange or unusual. But all of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether we agree with them or not

This statement has been mocked by those who think it sounds cult-like. Like, 'drink this spiked kool-aid even if you don't agree.'

To avoid additional embarrassment from detractors, the GB have likely been looking for a some practical example that makes sense even to the detractors. So they would have been hoping for something to come up that could be used to explain this statement in a more natural, easy-to-understand context, that didn't sound scary from a "cultish" perspective.

So, it was serendipitous that someone had said that preparing for Covid in their country made no sense to them until it spiked just a few weeks later. Then they understood that the GB direction saved lives.

I understood that bit, lol. It's this bit I wasn't sure about and how it related to the first part: 

5 hours ago, JW Insider said:

and then they searched high and low for a Witness or two who had been "living in a cave."

And I hope that their cave does not get the Internet, because I'd hate to have just insulted someone who is also on this forum. (See how easy it is to contradict oneself?)

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

This will sound a bit cynical, but I assumed that the GB have been on a constant lookout for a really good practical example to make that old quote from the 11.15.2013 Watchtower seem less "scary" to outsiders. They latched onto this one and hoped it would make sense to enough people, and then they searched high and low for a Witness or two who had been "living in a cave."

And I hope that their cave does not get the Internet, because I'd hate to have just insulted someone who is also on this forum. (See how easy it is to contradict oneself?)

I am not quite sure what you mean. You might need to explain it from another angle. Sorry, it's my fault. Usually I am on the same wavelength as you. 

14 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

which is indeed a faith killer for the one who is unaware and or ill-equipped to fight and or see it.

You have a point there

9 hours ago, JW Insider said:

To me, this is part of the great progress we have made in applying the lessons from Jesus' teachings to everyone. And then, at the last paragraph, a very knowledgeable older brother, makes a long comment that showed how an older WT said that bearing much fruit can apply to the effort in the ministry, not the success rate of making disciples. That was OK, I guess, but then he added that another older WT from 2002 says 'but of course the branches represent only the 144,000.'

It made me wonder whether some of that enthusiasm the whole congregation seemed to share in those previous answers might have been dampened just a bit by this idea that it doesn't really apply to most of us after all.

I don't think they put two and two together....

I wonder why he had the need to add that "correction"

9 hours ago, JW Insider said:

During that part, the idea was repeated a couple of times that the GB ["slave"] had given instructions to be obeyed even though they didn't make sense from a human perspective at the time. 

Yes, I noticed that too and wondered what this had to do with the covid situation. Following those instructions makes perfect sense from a human perspective! Unless by human perspective the GB mean anyone who is naive and of lesser intelligence, or someone who lives in a cave.. However, those who follow the developments in the world and read the guidelines as proposed by human agencies (as you mentioned) will know this pandemic is by no means over, and may last a very long time. We don't need the GB telling us what we already know. However, we do appreciate their reminders and concern. But to cloak this in a way that insinuates they have more knowledge, when all they do is follow the same developments that are accessible for anyone else to read and study, is....well, funny. As an after thought, they do mention following the guidelines of these human agencies. So this is just such a bad example of "might not make sense from a human stand point" because they kind of contradict themselves half way through. When this phrase was used in connection with instructions for the GT, where we might be told by the GB to do something that "doesn't make sense from a human stand point", is it something like this they had in mind? Lol. 

9 hours ago, JW Insider said:

In a kind of "worst case" scenario, I wondered if a brother in Chile might have read a directive from the WTS that said they needed to put up the national flag of Chile on the KH property because of Romans 13, and then thanked the GB for the "spiritual food."

Food for thought more than anything 🤪

Continued....

So going back to the brother who asked the question; "how we would feel if suddenly Jehovah stopped existing". I wonder how we would feel if suddenly if the GB stopped existing? Would we fall apart?

9 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Our cure is worse than the disease, and often leads to worse cases of the disease. If Amber is “not of our sort,”  let her learn that before she marries and goes off to China. Then hopefully she will take up a life in indifference to her former faith, and it will just be indifference—not hostility. 

Yes, well said. 

9 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I will at most detail a downside. I will not do a Rolf and call for an overhaul. What a tremendously immodest course that is! The GB is taking the lead, and they can amass scriptures to support what they advise regarding interaction with those who willfully leave the truth behind. Who am I to say those scriptures are invalid? Who am I to say I know better? For every iron I have in the fire, they have 100. I can only reflect on what appears before my own two eyes. They can reflect upon what appears before thousands of eyes. Highlight a downside and move on. Bring your gift to the altar. Maybe someone will say, “You know, that talkative yo-yo has a point.” But if they don,t, they don’t. They don’t have to tell me why they don’t. The expression “There are too many chiefs and not enough Indians” is one of the most under-appreciated bits of wisdom in the world.

Yes. And funny you mentioned too many chiefs and not enough Indians, I was going to mention that very phrase, lol. Actually, I was going to say you can't have more chiefs than Indians. Same thing.

Going back to the fear of apostates, it makes me wonder why they (the GB) are so afraid, to the point of putting the fear of God in you if you so much as glance at something apostate related. That has always bothered me a bit. Are they afraid that their influence be undermined? That people will lose trust in them? If that is so, where then does the trust in Jehovah figure? Are we not supposed to trust Jehovah more than any man? Does it not reveal that our trust may lie more in the GB than Jehovah? Recently, in one of the study articles it was mentioned that idolizing someone (the reference was to the GB) could become a stumbling block if that someone falls away. Is it then not better to see the "contrasting view" because that might help us be more realistically grounded. And as JWI alluded (I think it was JWI) why try and "hide" something unless we are ashamed of it (meaning the GB) and why not be candid and transparent? Why have all this "secret" stuff for the apostates to dig up and wave around? Stuff that the GB does not want us to read? Do they think our faith in Jehovah is so fragile?

When you believe in God, then this inevitably leads to questions about his purpose for us and the meaning of life. This in turn leads to an analysis of writings which claim to explain that. This leads to admitting that the Bible has the most intelligent explanation, and that Jehovah's Witnesses are the only ones who adhere to all of it despite some personal sacrifice on their part.
When you do not accept there is a God, like Amber, all that is no longer relevant.
Of course those who no longer believe there is a God fall back on so called "scientific proof" . And yes. There are things that don't quite add up about the timeline of the flood, the fossil record, and the age of man, etc. but despite that, even JTR, who believes in evolution (with a helping hand from Jehovah) is still with us.

For any intelligent person there is more proof of the existence of God than there isn't. Those who deny the existence of God do it more for personal reasons than because of science. When it comes down to the crunch, in the end, things are always personal, even if people try to imply some other noble cause or scientific enlightenment, or apostate reasoning. So what are the GB so afraid of?

Wow Tom, that was a long reply! At first I thought it was JWI 😂. I am just playing, no disrespect to either of you, I do the same I know, especially when I get in my rant mode.

5 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

a phrase that I never intended to mean anything more than providing leadership.

Gotcha!

5 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Moses said that Jesus will “raise up a prophet like me.”

I think you meant that Jehovah will raise up a prophet like Moses in reference to Jesus, the future Messiah. Which shows that Jesus became the "greater" Moses. What does that make the GB? That is why I don't think they can be viewed as Moses. Jesus already filled that role. We both agree they have some similar tasks in leading the people organizationally, and providing Bible literature, but as for having the status of being Jehovah's "mouthpiece", (or similar) I am not so sure about that. Many friends do think that, probably because the GB in the past have referred to themselves in that way. Is it any wonder then that some have this idea that the GB are more than what they actually are. And this can create problems, and has created problems where people leave the Truth because of this erroneous understanding. You inadvertently point out the problem: (in bold)

5 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

That’s all the GB is doing today, saying “Yes, I am a man. Yes, I am behind the curtain manipulating the machinery of organizational lead which is awesome, but I am still a man,” and some of the crowd will still say, “I think he is more than just a man, I think God gives him special spirit, I think....”—that’s just the way people are.

Those in the crowd might be less inclined to view things that way if the GB were NOT behind a curtain in the first place. And saying things like "we are Jehovah's mouthpiece" and "we will give you instructions that may not make sense from a human stand point" do not help.

But I agree with this though:

5 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

God does lead his people, and there has always been something visible for them to hang their hats on—though at no time does this “something visible” preclude one’s own relationship with God or one’s own study of the scriptures.

5 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

12 hours ago, Anna said:

but those publications are not rocket science. You could write them. Would it then mean that God was communicating through you? 

 I write supportively, as a apologist. Rolf writes as an investigative reporter

When I said the above, I was not comparing you to Furuli. By publications I meant the WT etc. I meant you could write them. Anyone with some intelligence and Bible knowledge could. My example was to show that the spiritual food provided by the GB is nothing that isn't there already (in the Bible). Just made more understandable and applicable in practical terms, which you could do as well. (in fact as we know, the writing department does all this, the GB merely proofread and put their stamp of approval on it). So how can it be said that God is communicating through the GB, (the FDS) if it's nothing new, and if you could do the same? That is what my argument was about. But you already explained what you meant.

5 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

As you know, you are my heroine, for doing the most commonsense thing in the world: familiarizing yourself with apostate reasonings so that should your loved one come across them one day and be stumbled, you are able to do more than say: “DON’T READ THAT STUFF!!!” an answer that you know as well as I will almost always work to your loved one’s disadvantage—once the toothpaste is out of the tube it does not go back in again, and your loved one’s newly discovered information source will certainly say: “You see? What did I tell you? They want to keep blinders on you!”

Thanks (blushing modestly). No but seriously, it has done me some good too, I feel the same way:

5 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

there is no mystery at all to these things, and my spirituality has only grown in seeing, not just why people accept the truth, but also why, after accepting it, they reject it.

Just gives you a broader view. I think any and all knowledge is beneficial, whether to deter you from doing bad, or encouraging you to do good. But then am I reasoning like Adam? Why would he want to eat from the tree of knowledge? Hmmmm.....

That's off topic, but maybe it could make an interesting topic!

5 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Sure, there is a rush that comes with answering a fathead,

I thought you quit that long ago. I have. There is no point. Maybe Reddit is different and compels you more to respond. I don't read Reddit. There is only one apostate forum I check on every now and again just to see if there is anything new. Not in their reasoning, that's the same old, but they are the first with leaked videos etc. That forum is more like a club where people of like mind associate. It helps them to cope with what they've left behind as they find encouragement from people of like mind and situation. If there is a JW club, (not here, I mean JW-Talk) you know there has to be an ex- JW club too.

5 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

But our track record of being unmarred by apostasy is so poor that at times, I wish we would re-examine that counsel to avoid at all costs even a whiff of it. When Amber Scorah sails through her life, ends up a missionary in China, and her faith and entire life is upended by one chance encounter there, something seems out of whack. Why did she cave so easily? Why wasn’t she better prepared for the contrasting view? When the Russian brother asks about his old friend and learns that one has left the faith because he read literature critical of the organization—literature that we are strongly advised not to read, it exaggerates the power of this crap. It is nothing more than the “sons of disobedience” at work, but it creates an almost superstitious horror among brothers that one chance encounter with an ‘apostate’ can upend a lifetime of dedication to God. I think it even works against zeal in the ministry—we work tirelessly over months or even years to make a disciple, with the underlying “knowledge” that it can all come to an abrupt end if that person so much as talks to an ‘apostate’—how can it not sap our willingness to go through the process in the first place?

 Yes. And poor Amber. I do actually feel sorry for her. (bold mine)

"Why wasn't she better prepared for the contrasting view"? Yes, it may have helped. But have you ever wondered why the likes of me, you, JWI, Arauna, Outta Here, ComfortMyPeople, b4ucuhear, JTR and others, although we have become familiar with the "contrasting view" we have not gone "rogue"? I have though about this quite a bit and my opinion is that those who fall away, do so not necessarily because they find out something "shocking" and thus lose faith, but because they find out something that gives them an excuse to fall away because they were already subconsciously that way inclined. Amber was unhappy in her marriage. I think overall she was not content with her life, hence looking for something different (China). Then comes along a charming kindred spirit that "opens her eyes" to the wonders of another world outside the JWs. She falls in love. And there you have it. The perfect end to a concoction to finally do what she really wanted. I can't speak for the others, but I have no need for any of that. I suppose I have matured enough now to see through these things. And yes, really making the Truth your own is key. Ok, I don't want do a Peter here and say we can never be stumbled and fall away, we can, but I would hope it would be a temporary lapse like it was with Peter. We are all weak in varying respects....but what is there outside of Jehovah? A brother asked the other week for us to imagine for a moment how we would feel if suddenly Jehovah stopped existing. I know how I felt. Is that perhaps another key to understanding why some leave and some stay despite man's (GB) imperfections?

Got to go, will continue later.

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

for the accepted method in which God communicates to man—

I am not sure, but do you mean that God communicates with us through the GB? If you do, then I do not agree. I do not think the GB are like Moses, or any prophet who Jehovah used in the past to communicate with his people the Israelites. Jesus did away with all that, he is the only high priest, and we have the holy spirit to help us. This goes for both the annointed and the great crowd. Not much difference in my opinion. Now do I agree there has to be organizational leadership, yes. I also think there has to be someone who makes sure the Bible is followed and upheld. So the GB calling themselves "guardians of the doctrine" as per Br. Jackson is ok too. Also the "spiritual feeding" is understandable as well, as long as it's not made up food and is always based on the Bible. But as for communication, well doesn't Jehovah communicate with us through his written word?  I know whenever this is discussed "Bible publications" are brought up, which is also ok, but those publications are not rocket science. You could write them. Would it then mean that God was communicating through you? Not unless you wrote something which was an interpretation of a scripture. And we know  what happens with that, some were wrongly interpreted. That's hardly Jehovah passing on information. 

Sorry if this sounds like a rant. I finally convinced my hubby that the GB are like the rest of us, except somebody has to take the lead....and the great thing is actually, GB agree with me 😁

5 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Does he write his book because he is trying to trigger “reform?” From who?

That was what I wondered too. Assuming he sent the book to the GB first, then he must want the GB to reform. If that's the case, and it would be the most logical assumption, then why publish it for everyone else to read?

And if he sent it to the GB first, and didn't get a response, then is publishing it a tantrum, for being ignored? 

4 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

So, it was debunked

So what exactly was debunked?

6 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

That being said, this has been debunked several times. A simple search is only required.

I can't remember it being debunked. I though we had researched it and found the photograph was genuine. Someone also inquired of the brothers who were familiar with the situation in Chile and they confirmed it...

Daniel 29:30 says a kingdom will rule OVER the earth: But after you another kingdom will rise,  inferior to you; then another kingdom, a third one, of copper, that will rule over the whole earth.

As @Outta Here already explained,  you can rule on or over and it doesn't make much difference in the context under discussion. However, grammatically I would prefer to rule over @4Jah2me if I become Queen of England,  not on him.

In any case, it is quite clear Revelation 5:10 is talking about pesons in heaven. If we were to apply it to an earthly scene, Jehovah would literally have to  be seated on a throne ON earth in order for Jesus,  "the lamb who was slaughtered" to be seated next to him ON earth. We know Jesus went to heaven and sat at the right hand of God in heaven. We also know that Jesus promised his followers in the 1st century that they would be seated next to him. We know there is a heavenly hope. So for clarities sake it is more accurate to say they will be ruling over the earth rather than on it. Evidently, saying on the earth is confusing, as made evident by the need to make this a topic for discussion in the first place.

12 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Wednesday morning at five o’clock as the day begins.”

Hey sneaky Tom, I'm not going to fall for that one, which Wednesday? 

Look y'all, all I'm interested in is: When is Armagedon coming? 

11 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

those who lead will (do) cause damage.....,

I guess the answer depends on what you interpret as damage. It's complicated because not everyone gets damaged by the same thing. It also depends on our ability to forgive. 

On 5/28/2020 at 8:26 AM, JW Insider said:

Some will set themselves up as God's messengers with a message about a flight to Australia for example

To be honest I was surprised that you bothered replying and addressing some of the things he raised, but I admire you for it. I just don't have the patience for what seems like completely ridiculous ideas....but I did read your replies to him. 
Lately I find myself not bothering to reply to others like Witness for example when she says that buying liquor (Morris) is a sign of not being sound in mind. I just can't be bothered to defend ridiculous statements any more....

I would like to respond to more of what you say but I will have to wait till I can have my PC  back. Trying to do this on the phone is awful.

10 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Again, it is the completely understandable urge to preserve demeanor for those providing the lead

Yes, I agree. But it is inevitable that the "truth" will come out over time. When that happens, you are either shocked and stumbled right out (of the truth) because you cannot believe that someone who was held up as almost perfect is not, and therefore cannot be from God. Or you are realistic, you see through the "demeanor preservation", you know that those providing the lead are imperfect as any of us, and that mistakes will be made, including obfuscation and lack of transparency. So when something does come out, you will not be shocked or stumbled. You are not going to leave. You are going to put your trust in Jehovah....He will never disappoint, and he sees everything. So stay calm and carry on 🙂

I have finally got around to reading some of Furuli's book.

On Page 67  Furuli argues that the slave wasn't appointed, because the appointment is in the future. He quotes July 2013 WT par. 18 where it says "In the verses that lead up to Matthew 24:46, the word “coming” refers consistently to the time when Jesus comes to pronounce and execute judgment during the great tribulation. (Matt. 24:30, 42, 44) Also, as we considered in  paragraph 12, Jesus’ ‘arriving’ mentioned at Matthew 25:31 refers to that same future time of judgment. So it is reasonable to conclude that Jesus’ arrival to appoint the faithful slave over all his belongings, mentioned at Matthew 24:46, 47, also applies to his future coming, during the great tribulation."

It seems to me that Furuli misunderstood, because the paragraph is not saying the slave will be appointed in the future, but that it will be appointed over ALL of Christ's belongings in the future. That is if they prove faithful. It is similar to the slaves who were given talents. When the master came to inspect, he rewarded those slaves who did business with the talents by giving them more. Similarly when Jesus comes, he rewards the FDS when he sees they have been giving food at the proper time:

“Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time? Happy is that slave if his master on coming finds him doing so! Truly I say to you, he will appoint him over all his belongings.- Matthew 24:45-47

Then Furuli says  "And logically, the faithful and discreet slave could not have been appointed in 1919, when there was no GB and no group of anointed who distributed spiritual food."   But that's not how I understood it. I thought there was always someone distributing spiritual food, with Russel being the one who "opened the way" and then Rutherford and others after him who published Bible literature. Wasn't that the food? 

I must admit I didn't read further because I ran out of time, so maybe I am jumping the gun. Maybe he explains it in the next section "THE FAITHFUL AND DISCREET SLAVE" IN CONTEXT. Stay tuned 😁

12 hours ago, Arauna said:

Literal rebellion against any other human (turn the other cheek ), or earthly institution would not come up in our mind......BUT: this would not in any way mean that we tolerate any form of ' yeast'. Our conscience will help us to quickly quelch any form of wickedness or even speak up against evil,  when needed,  in a kind and loving way. This is possible within our small sphere of influence..... 

Well said Arauna

30 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

those people should come to the same basic conclusion. Will they?

I will let you know 

7 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Again, there has to be organizational leadership in order for an organization to function, and there even has to be spiritual leadership, leading by example. But is it right for one man, or group of men, to have exclusive monopoly on the INTERPRETATION of scripture, but more importantly should this group have the right to insist that everyone accepts only their interpretation, and if not, they may be denied membership, or if they are already members it will be counted as "treason" and they will be ex-communicated (in our society we no longer chop peoples heads off) and ordered to live like outcasts, outlaws, banished and shunned by the whole community as they know it, including relatives. It sounds to me like something from my movie. Is this the model Jesus had in mind? I repeat, as a group, the GB are untouchable because they have enough support from "subjects". Remove that support and they are "nothing". But didn't Jesus say we should support one another, and come to the aid of our brothers?

Thank you for putting it all in colour. It looks pretty.

20 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Binged two seasons last year.

Well that's what we are doing right now. Just finishing season 2.

20 hours ago, JW Insider said:

22 hours ago, Anna said:

Where I am going with this is that I can see a parallel with the FDS.

It never occurred to me, although it did make me remember how we used to read or watch this kind of history and wonder who might have been the FDS, if any, during that time period. That idea was based on the old definition of the FDS: any of the anointed remnant who were alive at any given time anywhere on earth. We used to say that there were always some anointed at all times, somewhere on the earth, who could be considered the faithful and discreet slave.

I think you may have misunderstood me. My fault probably. I wasn't thinking of the anointed or FDS through the ages, but of the FDS in modern times. I was thinking of the "power" the old and new set of GB/FDS have which could be compared to the king. The current GB/FDS "rule" over more than 8 million people.  In anything they do, they, like the king, have God's backing. If anyone speaks against them, it's like speaking against God. This has been said many times in our publications, of course not in these words.

20 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Jesus is the only governor of the household of faith, or God's house. (Hebrews 3:5-8, 1 Peter 2:4-10)

Yes, of course. And whenever this is discussed, the GB tries to make sure that this is understood. But then on the other hand, when there is talk of "God's visible" organization, the GB are at the forefront of that organization. It's like no one really knows where to draw the line, and I think that's the crux of the problem.

You kind of address it here:

20 hours ago, JW Insider said:

what if the one thing that makes us think we have the first century situation in hand is that we have what we think of as modern-day apostles? And what if we should not? It's so hard to imagine the organization or any religious organization without effective leadership, especially to help guide a worldwide preaching activity. I admit that it's hard to imagine any kind of religion our size without apostle-like figures who are probably looked up to by those around them as if they are the Paul, the Apollos, the Cephas, and the James of our day.

And you further address the dilemma here (bold mine)

20 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Is Jesus looking for a worldwide congregation where somehow all the teaching is already handled through the obvious content of the scriptures, and those taking the lead in each individual congregation are only taking the lead in teaching by example, offering encouragement, binding up the brokenhearted, doing good and charitable works, feeding the hungry, clothing the needy, showing hospitality? Even if this were the case, congregations become complex, and there is always someone with an idea toward a new doctrine, or who wants his ego stroked by getting people to support his side, making the biggest decisions. Also, we know that many of the world's religions have devolved into social clubs on the one hand with doctrines as loose as boats without rudders in a stormy sea. On the other hand some are so fundamentally rigid in their beliefs that doctrinal discussion can result in violence. It seems that a "true religion" even today, requires human leadership of an apostle-like variety. Is this just a lack of faith in what could be a solution that matches Jesus' words: None of you shall be called Leaders (much less, a Body of Governors) for one is your Leader, and all of you are brothers. Is it possible for everyone is a large religion to all treat everyone as superior to themselves. (Furuli praises a visit from F.W.Franz where his wife met him and thought he treated her as superior to himself.)

(Philippians 2:1-4) . . .If, then, there is any encouragement in Christ, if any consolation of love, if any spiritual fellowship, if any tender affection and compassion, 2 make my joy full by being of the same mind and having the same love, being completely united, having the one thought in mind. 3 Do nothing out of contentiousness or out of egotism, but with humility consider others superior to you, 4 as you look out not only for your own interests, but also for the interests of others.

After a few years in Bethel and among elders and publishers of many different responsibilities and positions, I find it nearly impossible to imagine a unity (being of the same mind and having the same love, being completely united) where even the Governing Body consider you and me and Tom and Furuli and Melinda and Allen superior to them in all humility. Perhaps I don't have the faith that something like this is workable.

So what's the solution? A book?? 😁 (I don't think so. Although I must admit I am looking forward to reading it)