Anna

5 hours ago, JW Insider said:

But sometimes I get the feeling that we are guessing now, yet the first audience did not have to guess, because it was so obvious, and they may have had John or his associates around to explain what John knew about the motivations for choosing specific words/symbols/images.

Interesting concept! I suppose it could be comparable to us using terminology of the 21st century, and someone in the 1st century trying to understand it. "Zoom meetings" could be one, and there are a thousand of others. I could just see Peter saying "He what?? Zoomed in on his "cell phone"?? 

3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Therefore, if these "kings of the earth" are revisited in Revelation, then the symbol is no longer necessary to identify with a particular nation.

It seems that identifying the various features of Revelation (and the other prophetic books) is sometimes more if a guessing game than anything else...

A question:

When the census is being taken for the number of memorial observers (non partakers) are unbaptised children counted? 

23 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Now that millions of Witnesses will think about going out to buy it on their own, they might wonder why we don't try for wine made from Israeli grapes/vineyards. What constitutes too much preservative to make it impure if it must represent the unblemished Lamb?

I think if Witnesses get hung up about such detail it verges on being pharisaical....

23 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Also, what if someone has decided just before the Memorial that they now are of the anointed class and the symbol wasn't offered? And, even if no one is partaking, how important is to follow the words: "Take this and pass it from one to the other among yourselves" (Luke 22:17)

I don't think that should be much of a problem. In a small intimate family setting, he could just reach over and take the emblems. No one would need to pass it to them surely? This is why I think passing the emblems is moot, and especially if no one partakes.

23 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Also, the question might arise about whether a family needs to clear the food from the dinner table first, since the disciples seemed not have done so in Matt 26:

That's an interesting one. I will propose that one to my hubby 😄

23 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Or why do we even celebrate it once a year like Passover was celebrated, when Paul said "whenever" and Jesus sais "as often"

That's how the Catholics see it, as I'm sure you know. Hence the sacraments any time.

23 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Whether partaking in a Biblical sense actually means sharing which some might say we should all be doing. Or even whether the particular part of the Kingdom hope we wish for ourselves personally should have anything to do with whether we are supposed to partake. 

Sorry, could you explain what you mean, not sure I understand..

11 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Look they do not want that.

But Br. Lett DOES love selfies with people 😄

10 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

, “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you cannot have eternal life within you.

When they heard this, many of his disciples said: “This speech is shocking; who can listen to it?” ⁶¹  But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were murmuring about this, said to them: “Does this stumble you?* ⁶²  What, therefore, if you should see the Son of man ascending to where he was before?z⁶³  It is the spirit that is life-giving;a the flesh is of no use at all. The sayings that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

John 6:60 -63

5 hours ago, paulus said:

But it is sad that this site which I believe was set up to provide encouragement and support to Brothers and sisters around the world tolerates

So that you know, this site allows all to voice their opinions. If someone is not sufficiently convinced of their own beliefs then they may want to leave. No one is preventing that. 

9 hours ago, Kosonen said:

So what could we learn from them? Surely these flights are examples for us

And yet the Israelites were told to hunker down in their homes and stay put when Jehovah's Angel passed over Egypt.

Jehovah can save anyone, individually, no matter where they are physically.  The war of Armageddon will be global, no place to run to. We will rely on Jehovah's power to save us no matter where we are. No need for a mass exodus to Australia.

9 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

"We're living in the Final part of the Final last days".

Bet he says 'Keep calm'.

Sure, and why not? Luke 21:28

10 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I think everyone is going to question what parameters are OK, and what might not be appropriate. There will be differences of opinion about what was appropriate or not.

I know of an elder and his wife who will not have any symbols at all. I also heard one brother mention the appropriateness of a recovering alcoholic obtaining wine. Our household (3 of us) will have the emblems, but I don't think I am going to pass them around. To me that would feel too pretentious since the reason for passing them is not there...

10 hours ago, JW Insider said:

we don't focus on the "rules" until there are apparent exceptions to the rule

I am not sure what rules you are referring to with regard to the memorial. The only rules I know of, and they are pretty straightforward, is the wine should be unfortified and the bread unleavened and the anointed are the only ones who partake and the great crowd are observers. The exceptions to the rules are If there is no one partaking then the emblems are not necessary. They are only necessary when a whole congregation physically gathers in case someone partakes. In a home where it is clear no one will partake, then to me, having the symbols is like a Catholic having a statue of a crucified Jesus to remind himself visually of the sacrifice that he made. That's how I see it anyway....

As a side line,  the friends fussing over what brand or type of red wine should be used is positively irritating me, lol. Red wine is red wine! As for the bread, as long as it is unfortified flour and water, rolled into a flatbread and baked, it doesn't matter if it's as hard as rock, because no one will eat it! 😄

2 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

1 Corinithians 11 v 24

 and after giving thanks, he broke it and said: “This means my body, which is in your behalf. Keep doing this in remembrance of me.” 

In who's behalf ? Who was Jesus talking to ? It wasn't to the Domestics / Earthly Class.

I think you forgot this scripture: John 3:16

1 hour ago, 4Jah2me said:

The Wine and Bread represent the Blood And Flesh of Jesus Christ. but it seems the JW Org don't actually want to think on those things. Is it to gory for you all ? 

The Anointed drink the blood and eat the flesh of Christ and are then in Union with Him.

You do know that the wine and bread symbolize Jesus' blood and flesh, that they are not really his blood and flesh, right?

1 hour ago, 4Jah2me said:

Jesus was talking ONLY to the Anointed.  

Yes, we are aware of that. The other sheep are merely grateful spectators, with only a very few partaking. Would you have the anointed and the great crowd segregated?

6 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Here is a copy of the email that was sent out to us, yesterday

I think everyone was sent the same email 👍

26 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Many have defied the orders of local authorities under threat of having their doors closed and large fines imposed. Mayors are being accused of being too harsh on these restrictions because such sanctions could end up keeping the doors closed on some churches and synagogues even after the crisis is over. Yet some of these religions appear to believe that God will protect them. 

I had no doubts that we wouldn't be one of those who defied the authorities in this case. Defying the authorities because they forbid us to preach and meet because they don't agree with us is scriptural. But this of course is not the current situation, and we obey the superior authorities because they have ours and everyone else's health and  best interests at heart. I wonder if any of us ever foresaw that there would be a valid reason to stop gathering together, lol.  It also made me think that zoom and similar conference meetings may be used during the GT, and that those examples of meeting in the woods/attic/basement might be moot....

But I know there are ways in which such conference meetings can be potentially hijacked....so maybe it could be the woods after all...

I have noticed many friends seem to be stressing about the acquisition of the memorial symbols during the coronavirus lockdown. There have been quite a few discussions on social media and in person.

These discussions were mainly regarding the necessity for memorial symbols if such became troublesome to purchase and if no one in the household was a partaker. The elders sent out information, one  of which was the 85 WT 2/1/ p. 31 "question from readers" ( https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1985128 )which says in part:

"On occasion, raging storms or floods have prevented a congregation, or some of its members, from meeting together as planned. In rare cases, martial law has been in effect with armed soldiers barring citizens from being out-of-doors after sunset. Other Christians have not been able to be at the congregation’s celebration because of being hospitalized or seriously ill. What can be done in such instances?

While it is fitting for the whole congregation to unite for this important event, circumstances such as noted above may make that impossible. When extreme weather, a natural disaster, or the like, absolutely prevents a family or a portion of a congregation from meeting with the congregation, the isolated ones can meet and discuss Scriptural accounts such as found in Luke 22:7-23, 28-30 and; 1 Corinthians 11:20-31, as well as discussing the meaning of the occasion. Similarly, if an enforced curfew makes it impossible for a congregation to gather on the appropriate night, meeting in Congregation Book Study groups or neighborhood groups might be the best alternative, the sum of those in attendance serving as the congregation’s attendance report. A brief talk may even be given if a capable, dedicated brother is in the group. There need not be concern that no suitable emblems are available as long as no one in this emergency situation previously partook of the bread and the wine as an anointed Christian".

It made me think about the whole topic a little bit more. To observe the memorial was a command by Jesus for the anointed, and as far as I am aware, there is nothing in the Bible commanding the great crowd to observe it, even as spectators. However, at the beginning, before the great crowd was identified, all were partakers. After that, the emblems kept being passed, and those who were anointed partook, and those who were not obviously didn't. Fast forward to today, in a congregation setting, even if we "know" that currently no one partakes, that can change. So while all the anointed are not sealed yet, we cannot assume, and stop passing along the emblems on the account that we think no one is anointed in our congregation. No one is asked beforehand if they are going to partake, that only becomes evident when the emblems reach them, and they eat the bread and drink the wine. That way, no one is put on the spot. Of course, on top of that, since we are one flock, and we support the anointed in everything, we observe the memorial with them, as spectators, and also to show appreciation for what Jesus did for us. But, under lockdown circumstances if we know for sure no one is going to partake in our family, then there is really no need for the emblems. That's how I see it anyway. But some prefer to have the emblems to help them visualize things better. Although we are supposed to be walking by faith, not by sight...😀

I like how our website puts it: "The purpose of the Lord’s Evening Meal is to remember Jesus, showing our gratitude for his sacrifice in our behalf. (Matthew 20:28; 1 Corinthians 11:24) The observance is not a sacrament, or a religious practice that imparts merit such as grace or the forgiveness of sins. * The Bible teaches that our sins can be forgiven, not by a religious rite, but only through faith in Jesus".—Romans 3:25; 1 John 2:1, 2. https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/lords-supper/

Unfortunately, it seems like some are viewing the memorial as some kind of religious ritual, and are even going to pass the emblems among themselves as if touching them somehow makes all the difference....Because I come from a Catholic family, I find this kind of reasoning a little disappointing...

Also, I don't know if anyone has listened to the memorial talk, the brother says that Jehovah's Witnesses would risk their lives to be at the memorial. In view of all the above, isn't that statement a little far fetched?

Any thoughts?

9 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

It recognises the earthly class as Saying "We want to go with you, (the Jew) for we have heard that God is with you people" BUT then it ends the article by saying that only those 8 men are the F&DS.

The "Jew" are all the anointed (spiritual Israel). The FDS are just a few of the anointed to give food at the proper time. Don't mix the two up.

9 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

The scripture in Acts 2, from verse 14 where Peter implies that they are living in the last days, states that, from v 17,

‘“And in the last days,” God says, “I will pour out some of my spirit on every sort of flesh, and your sons and your daughters will prophesy and your young men will see visions and your old men will dream dreams,l ¹⁸  and even on my male slaves and on my female slaves I will pour out some of my spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.

This scripture mentions women as well as men prophesying. It mentions young and old seeing visions and dreaming dreams.

Peter was talking about the last days of what was going on at the time (destruction of Jerusalem was close), when holy spirit was poured out, and some people thought they were drunk. So Peter said: "“Men of Ju·deʹa and all you inhabitants of Jerusalem, let this be known to you and listen carefully to my words. ¹⁵  These people are, in fact, not drunk, as you suppose, for it is the third hour of the day. ¹⁶  

Then Peter goes to point out that Joel prophesied about this situation "On the contrary, this is what was said through the prophet Joel: ¹⁷  ‘“And in the last days,” God says, “I will pour out some of my spirit on every sort of flesh, and your sons and your daughters will prophesy and your young men will see visions and your old men will dream dreams,l ¹⁸  and even on my male slaves and on my female slaves I will pour out some of my spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.

Just to be clear, and it was mentioned on here a few times already, anyone can benefit from the holy spirit, they do not have to be anointed. Holy spirit is not limited to the anointing process, but it is also a helper, it helps all Christians, regardless of their final destination, to produce the spirit's fruitage.

On 3/22/2020 at 11:54 AM, JW Insider said:

In a nearly related topic, how many are using Zoom for their meetings this weekend? Are your meetings one-way, or can you participate with answers to questions, for example?

We are using Zoom, with those who have parts being on camera, including a few designated to comment, and the rest watching...

10 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

@JW Insider  Please can you answer a few questions VERY simply for me.

1. Does the GB / CCJW teach that the apostles and early anointed ones are in heaven NOW reigning with Christ ?

 Are you saying that You believe that the apostles and early anointed ones are still 'in the grave' awaiting their resurrection ?

2. Does the GB / CCJW teach that Jesus Christ became King in heaven in 1914 ? Or maybe another year ?

Do you believe that Jesus Christ became King in 33 C. E. ? 

3. When do the GB / CCJW teach that the '4 horsemen'  start or started riding ? Was it 1914 ?

When do you believe the 4 horsemen started riding ? Are you saying they started riding in 33 C. E. ?

I only want very simple answers and no need to back it up with scripture. 

@Kosonen If you want to answer these same questions from your own viewpoint then please do. But please keep it simple. 

Having just read the last five comments, a couple of which were big and deep (well for my simple brain anyway) I get very confused. 

@TrueTomHarley and @Anna  Your input would also be welcome. But as above please keep it simple for me. 

I need to know from a JW standpoint what is really being taught right now and what JWs believe from their own viewpoint. 

JW Insider pretty much answered your questions on what the CCJW believe.

The only problem I see with the anointed already being in heaven is that they are supposed to rule with Christ, which they are not yet, because that is not supposed to happen until the full number of 144 000 is there. They can't rule with some being in heaven and some being still on earth, or dead.  So I don't know what they are doing in heaven, sitting and waiting I guess...? So it would seem more logical that they are still in the grave and will be resurrected when ALL the anointed die. The problem with that is the timing. If there is just one anointed, lets say in their 30's, and they die a "natural old age death" then this would mean that it could be another 50 years before the "end" comes. Of course the Bible talks about a "rapture" where those who are alieve on earth will be taken up to heaven no matter their age. This is what the CCJW believe will happen in the Great Tribulation. So I suppose it solves that problem. I guess according to @JW Insider the other anointed who are in the grave will then also be resurrected to heaven.

You asked about my viewpoint on those questions. I honestly don't know. And I really don't think it matters too much. It should not matter in view of what it means to be a true Christian. JW Insider pointed that out. A lot of the attitude now is "let's wait and see". The important thing is being found to be on God's side when it all goes down.

14 hours ago, Tom Henry said:

find this comment highly offensive. Where is the moderator Anna.

To be honest until a few days ago I had no idea I was also moderating THIS club. I have been a moderator in the JW Only club, but recently I noticed THIS club, that used to be OPEN, has now also become closed. So it has become a little confusing. While the JW Only club had much stricter rules, (one of them being no ex- JW and only baptized practicing JWs), this club (the Jehovahs Witnesses) allowed anyone to become a member and comment. I guess the @The Librarian automatically made me moderator here also....?

I don't know what the rules are here, but I would say common courtesy should apply across the board of course, so @4Jah2me please control yourself. Thank you.

9 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Next thing you know these yo-yos will be saying that Bethel cooked up the virus themselves so as to carry out this nefarious scheme.

Oh no, but they will be so wrong! It's the toilet paper manufacturers.

55 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

That reminded me of a rumor, surely started by ex-JWs, that the idea behind JW Broadcasting was to ultimately turn the meetings into a video broadcast from HQ. All meetings at the Hall would become more and more made up of videos until finally they were 100% videos. This would supposedly result in HQ turning into little more than a place where the videos were made.

Yes I heard that too. It was not so much a rumor but wishful thinking on the part of the ex-JWs i think, as they were hoping this would eventually lead to the disintegration of the org. However, I just read a leaked letter to the BOE urging elders  to find ways for the members of the cong to interact via some type of conference calling and/or to stream a meeting with only those who have talks etc. like you already described, and make it possible for everyone to be tied in and even comment. They were saying that the JW streaming should not be used indefinitely because we need to interact with each other, even if only by video conference etc. So the ex-jws  had to admit that the idea that congregations meetings could eventually be phased out does not sound realistic at all in view of this letter....

Oh and also group meetings, if permissible, have been suggested, or just families, even if these consist of women only. I am assuming this is in countries with lockdown....

On 3/15/2020 at 6:59 AM, Kosonen said:

My wife, active JW, does not go to meeting today. She says meetings are canceled due to the Corona virus.

Very interesting.

A speculation rose in my mind, could this be the beginning of the fall of the WT organization. A soft start to the liquidation of the WT organization? The congregations would already had canceled normal meetings and then it would not be a big deal to close the headquarters.

The situation is no doubt very special.

Then the foretold flight to the desert could occure.

Ummmm.......no.

The congregations are only following the recommendations or orders from secular authorities who have good reasons for giving these orders for the health and safety of its citizens. I can't understand why anyone would think that JWs are somehow going to think it does not apply to them??

As soon as the authorities say it's ok to gather again, we will resume the meetings. It's not rocket science....

"Breaking news":

All spiritual events in the United States branch territory that are larger than a congregation meeting have been cancelled until further notice.

There goes our assembly....

All our meetings and fs has been canceled until further notice. And were having the CO this week....

I am sure this is common knowledge already, but for "kicks and giggles" I entered into google earth the location of the Wuhan Institute Of Virology and of course it falls right where the outbreak was identified, in Hubei. I have not really been doing a lot of reading about the virus but the little that I did read seemed to pinpoint it, or blame it on, the outdoor animal markets. I don't know, to me it seems too much of a coincidence that this institute is right there. It sounds more like something got out where it shouldn't have. Why else all the panic?

An interesting short article from the institute here: http://english.whiov.cas.cn/Research/Research_Progress/201712/t20171201_186818.html

"By analyzing the new viruses’ complete genetic makeup, Shi and her colleagues retraced the steps that might have given rise to the original SARS virus. A few spots in the viruses’ DNA seem particularly prone to rearrangement, so remixing happens often. The study suggests that recombination between viruses has shaped the evolution of SARS, says Baric".

Perhaps they did a little re-mixing in a test tube and forgot to put the cork back.....