Anna

21 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

So why then does said practice have to be defined?

Obviously there are some who push the boundaries and think it's ok as long as there is no actual intercourse/oral sex involved. You know, they rationalize.... a bit like Clinton, when he said he wasn't being unfaithful to his wife because oral sex isn't really sex.

The WT wouldn't have printed this unless it was a problem.

21 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

She’s funny that way. When I worked with her in service, she hadn’t even washed it out. When I scolded her, she dismissed me by saying (breezily) that the wind would blow it clean.

Lol

12 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

3 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Neither have any thought for any of the victims of Child Abuse. 

What have you been smoking?

I didn't even bother replying to that. It's just too ridiculous...

41 minutes ago, Anna said:

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

The Elders won't handle the issue without two witnesses because they will call the victim a liar or slanderer. Then if the victim keeps complaining the Elders will have the victim disfellowshipped for either of the above reasons.  

Paragraph 15   :................ Does this mean that before an allegation of abuse can be reported to the authorities, two witnesses are required? No. This requirement does not apply to whether elders or others report allegations of a crime.

36 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

42 minutes ago, Anna said:

* Paragraph 15   :................ Does this mean that before an allegation of abuse can be reported to the authorities, two witnesses are required? No. This requirement does not apply to whether elders or others report allegations of a crime.

You really cannot be bothered to understand what I'm saying so i cannot be bothered to continue answering you. 

Please explain what you mean.

* Paragraph 15, last sentence:   https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/watchtower-study-may-2019/love-justice-face-of-wickedness/

3 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

You really cannot be bothered to understand what I'm saying so i cannot be bothered to continue answering you.

I am very bothered, please explain. What is it that I misunderstood?

18 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

The Elders won't handle the issue without two witnesses because they will call the victim a liar or slanderer. Then if the victim keeps complaining the Elders will have the victim disfellowshipped for either of the above reasons.  

Paragraph 15   :................ Does this mean that before an allegation of abuse can be reported to the authorities, two witnesses are required? No. This requirement does not apply to whether elders or others report allegations of a crime.

11 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

does not convey the EARTHWIDE problem within the JW Org which includes pedophile Elders.

What part of the world do you think it conveys, if not the whole earth?

"those who are a part of the congregation" excludes elders?

21 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

Why do you dodge simple truth in order to divert the topic to something irrelevant for the sake of sarcasm when you could just answer straightforward?  

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

JW members, as i had seen before my left JW, in few short conversations, are rejecting this as problem, and never heard nothing similar had happened (here in Croatia, or in Germany, as one bro in telephone call from Hamburg area told me). 

So, as firstly, THIS WILL HELP in that way to introduce how problem EXISTING inside JW congregations.

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

For this reason WT need to give FREE HAND for all those who want to talk about it. People will and must to come to state of awareness, awakened emotions and state of confusion and disbelief. For that reason those who "controlled their spirituality health" must give them space to TALK ABOUT.

Same answer I gave to John:

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/watchtower-study-may-2019/love-justice-face-of-wickedness/

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/watchtower-study-may-2019/comfort-victims-of-abuse/

9 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

t would make the naive congregants FULLY AWARE of the Child Abuse / Pedophilia problem within the whole Earthwide JW Org. 

Whereas right now most of then DO NOT KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT IT 

If some don't know anything abot it, they will by now, or at the latest in July.

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/watchtower-study-may-2019/

8 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Because remember, molesters do this in secret and they are very good at hiding what they do.

I would like everyone on here to take note of @Anna 's comment above. 

Read it 3 times. Remember repetition for emphasis ! 

Now how does this relate to the TWO WITNESS RULE ? 

I don't see a problem there at all. The two witness rule is irrelevant when it comes to reporting to the police, as has been mentioned several times already. The two witness rule is only for elders handling the issue.

Before I respond, I would like to say, and I am sure you would agree, the main objective of ANY action would be to protect children by preventing child abuse from happening.  So in view of that:

9 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

- truthful information's about all cases from past to today 

How would that help?

9 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

- put free space for listeners to make own conclusions and possibility to express it in responding comments, letters, talks, etc.

How would that be helpful in preventing child abuse?

9 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

list of those who are dfd for molestation's ...... - list of those who are sentenced by Courts for molestation's

Would this list be posted on JW.org? And would their addresses be there too? I am sure this is actually illegal, at least in the United States. Only the Police have the right to make such a list, it's called the sex offender registry. Do you have something similar in Croatia?

9 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

how much money was payed for various expenses   

How would that protect children?

9 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

- collectively asking for forgiveness, apologize to victims

This is one point I agree with.  I do know that elders have apologized to victims on an individual basis if they have mishandled a case. But it's unrealistic and unfair to have to apologize in all instances. How can elders apologize for the sexual misconduct of a father against his children, especially if the elders have no idea such molestation has been going on? Because remember, molesters do this in secret and they are very good at hiding what they do. It may be years later, when the child grows up, that the elders find out. As for collectively, as an organization....perhaps it will happen.

30 minutes ago, Jack Ryan said:

It's crazy to me that now a lap-dance is fornication/porneia. Which means it is also grounds for divorce!

It says: "Depending on the facts of the actual situation, this COULD constitute sexual immorality". In other words if the actual situation involved intercourse/oral sex, then that would constitute sexual immorality.......(and would be grounds for divorce).

6 hours ago, Witness said:

Would there have been an inquiry by the ARC if all were disfellowshipped? 

Yes, there would have still been an inquiry. The ARC wasn't concerned about church discipline or ex- communication. The ARC wanted the police informed. Which practically no one in society did in those days. This is why the ARC was set up in the first place, to address a national problem, so that the government could put specific laws in place so that the issue of child abuse could be addressed better. 

You didn't answer my question: Do you have all the facts and detail regarding those cases?

10 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Never told about Court cases and out of Court deals, and how much money WT gave, by Court decision or by settlement, to victims. Omitting to talk about it, on JWTV

What do you think they should say?

2 hours ago, Jack Ryan said:

but even at my most convinced and indoctrinated I saw straight through that.

so what DID you see?

4 minutes ago, Witness said:

Anna, were all 1006 perpetrators disfellowshipped?

Do you have all the the information on all 1006 cases?

44 minutes ago, Witness said:

As an example, think about the apostate-driven lies and dishonestys that Jehovah’s organization is PERMISSIVE” toward pedophiles.”

 adjective: permissive

No, Jehovah Witnesses have never been permissive or tolerant towards immorality of any kind. Anyone practicing these things is disfellowshipped.

3 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

You are missing the collateral damage issues and that abusers are still hidden in the congregations.

I am assuming you are talking about your personal experience in your congregation hiding an abuser?

3 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

So i could not be active in the field ministry, trying to bring people into the Org which is a dangerous environment. Bring in lambs amongst wolves.  

I am sorry John, but you make it sound like there is a pedophile lurking in every congregation. Let’s get real here, people from the “outside” are more at risk of being raped and their children molested than inside a congregation. Also, most of the cases have been familial, as you mention later on, which means it would have happened regardless of being part of a congregation or not. Just because someone claims to be a faithful JW doesn't make him so.

3 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Was it you that once said, that a person who is not actively against something, is actually a part of the problem. Well i felt like that anyway. Not being against it in an active way made me part of the problem. I was hoping that thousands of brothers and sisters would leave the JW Org.  

First of all, to be effective in being against something you have to have all the facts about that something. It’s no good throwing accusations around based on limited information. Then you’d be like the tabloid newspapers, all about sensationalism and misleading selective quotes. And no matter how much objective information you've read, and how many court cases you've studied, you still will not have all the facts. You'd only have those if you were a fly on the wall.

4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

There was just too much involved. The congregants were not being warned in any way. They should have been told to be careful in case there was 'trouble' in the ministry because of people's anger due to the child abuse situation. But no, no warning was given. 

So are you here talking about your congregation? Or in general?

4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

And you know that it was too dangerous for me to tell people inside the congregation because I would have been disfellowshipped for 'causing a division in the congregation'. Then the Elders would have been happy to say i was an Apostate. 

I disagree with you there. I am not sure how you dealt with it, I know you wrote a letter, but did you give the elders a chance to explain themselves? No one is disfellowshipped for being worried and showing genuine concern. Especially when they take this worry and concern to the elders, rather than the congregants. It’s the elders who are responsible for the congregation. They are the ones who need to know.

4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

True that God will sort it all out in the end, but meanwhile thousands of children are suffering child abuse, physical abuse and emotional abuse, some of it by their own parents in the JW org. 

We can add other atrocities, incurable ailments, and all kinds of tragedies. This is the legacy that Adam and Eve have left mankind. Remember, the whole world is lying in Satan’s power. No one is immune.

4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

As for me not being in a good position anymore, it's quite the contrary. My position is now safe for me to talk. It's other people's problems if they are too frightened to want to listen. They know where I live if they want to talk to me.

True, you can talk all you like, but it’s not going to be effective if no one listen, is it? And I thought that was your motive, for people to hear you.

13 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Wasn't one of the GB saying that it was all lies and all Apostate propaganda ? So what chance did i have in telling folks ? 

I think you must have missed my post about that.

Lett didn't say child abuse was apostate lies and propaganda, he wasn't denying there was a problem. What he said was that us denying there is a problem, and ignoring child abuse, is apostate lies.

I will reply to the rest of your post later. I can't right now.

1 minute ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

The ones that I would like to talk to face to face, are too frightened to talk to me. ... Now that is either, frightened because they may get reported to the Elders, or, frightened that what i have to tell them will take them out of their comfort zone. 

Yes, you are not in a good position to talk anymore. It's too late. The time to say anything is when you are still a member of the congregation. And that's when what I said in the previous post applies. I still think you were too hasty in your assessment of the child abuse issues. When something is going on, that I feel is not good, I always think of this scripture: "For there is nothing hidden that will not be exposed; nothing is carefully concealed that will not come out in the open" Mark 4:22

When the Australian Commission inquiry first started, I spoke with a faithful, long time sister in Australia, I wanted to know what she thought about it, and she quoted that same scripture to me.

What I am saying is there is no reason to jump ship. We may not agree with something, or may believe something is downright wrong. But we have to put things into the right perspective. The worldwide brotherhood has many many good things, and most brothers and sisters have genuine love for each other and a desire to walk modestly with their God, and a desire to live a good clean life according to the Bible. If we stick with our brothers and sisters, and wait on Jehovah to sort things out, that need sorting out, we cannot lose. And IF the leadership (GB) would go down, so what, we still have our brothers and sisters and most of all Jehovah.

56 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

But when I mention the reality I get told off for fault finding or criticism

You are obviously saying you are not fault finding or criticizing, just stating facts. Some people don't like to hear facts, especially if it goes against what they believe to be true. Nobody likes to be called out. The wisdom for you is to say your piece, and leave it. A bad idea is to keep harping on about it like you are the judge of all things. Don't think people don't hear you, they do, and it's up to them to process it.

I am not talking about forums like this one, you can harp on about things to your hearts content here, I am talking about face to face with people. 

8 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Anna gets told off for fault finding and criticism

Don't you know it! lol

9 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

However I think it shows cowardice and the lack of confidence in your own beliefs. 

You are taking yourself too seriously John. You should know TTH sense of warped humour by now.

5 hours ago, JW Insider said:

However, in the very next columns, starting on the same page, this admission disappears into oblivion, and it becomes a religious organization, after all.

Yes, I noticed that too. I think this is the same pattern of reasoning as in AW 7/09 "Is wrong to change your religion".