Anna

4 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

These same folks who point the finger at John, defend a policy that does not report anything to the police. 

Except that the policy does support reporting to the police

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

It seems how Problem is about Two Jurisdictional system that existing and working in parallel mode

It is not a problem, it is exactly how it is. The jurisdictional system in a congregation deals with sin, the Jurisdictional system of the Government deals with crime and both can be applied to the same instance at the same time. In the case of child sexual molestation, it is both, a sin and a crime. So both jurisdictional systems are needed.

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God."

It seems, by this words, how God of Bible was not give any authority to anyone  outside of Secular Governments arrangement. 

It might seem like that. But if you read the context, and other scriptures which talk about this subject, then it becomes clear that for Christians, God is to be obeyed above anyone: Acts 5:29: "In answer Peter and the other apostles said: “We must obey God as ruler rather than men". For example, secular law does not prohibit Adultery or fornication. However God does.

So, as you say, there are two parallel  jurisdictional systems. One is religious, based on sin (adultery and fornication are a sin), the other one is secular, based on crime (adultery and fornication are not a crime).  That is why Paul was able to say: "After all, it is none of my business to judge outsiders. God will judge them. But should you not judge the members of your own fellowship? As the scripture says, “Remove the evil person from your group.” (1 Corinthians 5:12-13).

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

What they were, this small cases in 1 century? 

These would have been personal disputes between two brothers (or sisters) that did not involve a sin or a crime.  It would be better if these brothers could handle this between themselves peacefully, rather than get "worldly" courts to judge who was right and who was wrong.

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Judges in congregations, elders, also doing wrong and cheat. Is this report just type - anti type illustration? :))) or just normal fulfillment of some other Bible words as: "All this I have seen, applying my mind to every deed that is done under the sun; there is a time when one man lords it over another to his own detriment."

Possibly. But in any case, we can be sure that ultimately God will judge everyone (Romans 14:12)

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Christ died for sinners of all kind. Idea of forgiveness. And other wonderful ideas that we have. Nice. But no one want this type of sinners in close to, near by the children. So, what would be decision? 

If you were an elder, what decision would you make?

3 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

 par. 11. If it is determined that one guilty of child sexual abuse is repentant and will remain in the congregation, restrictions are imposed on the individual’s congregation activities. The individual will be specifically admonished by the elders not to be alone in the company of children, not to cultivate friendships with children, or display any affection for children. In addition, elders will inform parents of minors within the congregation of the need to monitor their children’s interaction with the individual. 

Well, monitoring. Parents will monitoring children after they received elders message. 

Well, specifically admonished (is very serious speaking to somebody)will be instrument for elders to show, discipline molester who is repentant.

Now i get. No police! Why? Because elders decide molester is repentant! 

No Nooo! Police being involved or not involved has nothing to do with  the molester being repentant or not repentant. Again, remember: The elders’ handling of an accusation of child abuse is not a replacement for the authorities’ handling of the matter.—  This applies whether the elders disfellowship the molester or not.

Par. 11 Follows from par 10:

10. Child abuse is a serious sin. If an alleged abuser is a member of the congregation, the elders conduct a Scriptural investigation. This is a purely religious proceeding handled by elders according to Scriptural instructions and is limited to the issue of membership as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. A member of the congregation who is an unrepentant child abuser is expelled from the congregation and is no longer considered one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. (1 Corinthians 5:13) The elders’ handling of an accusation of child abuse is not a replacement for the authorities’ handling of the matter.—

and then:

11. If it is determined that one guilty of child sexual abuse is repentant and will remain in the congregation, restrictions are imposed on the individual’s congregation activities. The individual will be specifically admonished by the elders not to be alone in the company of children, not to cultivate friendships with children, or display any affection for children. In addition, elders will inform parents of minors within the congregation of the need to monitor their children’s interaction with the individual.

Remember the Elders responsibility is the spiritual well being of even the molester. The molester may have been released from prison, he may be on a sex offender registry, he may have social restrictions, he may be attending special counseling. But If there are clear signs that the molester is repentant from a Biblical stand point, then the Elders cannot deny him his right to be in the congregation. This does not exclude police involvement. The police can be involved at any stage in this process (with prison, counseling, social restrictions etc.).

In fact I personally know a brother who is on a sex offender registry for something he did in the past. So the police were very much involved. He even went to prison for 6 months. He is still a member of a congregation. This is why Christ died for us, so that no matter how bad the sin/crime, we have a chance of forgiveness.

5 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

How and why to compare elders and police officers in this? Elders are supposed to care only about spiritual safety of flock, according to WT Lawyers. So by what authority and by what qualifications would elders be prepared to execute the order?

I think we have a misunderstanding here, out of context. The elders are responsible for the flock in a spiritual way, but do you think if someone would try to physically assault someone inside the congregation they would just stand by and not do anything? They will help, and if necessary call the police. So in context, the elders are going to help someone from physical (or sexual) harm inside the Kingdom Hall, not just the elders, but any brother or sister will try and help. But if there is a problem outside the congregation building, for example domestic violence inside a home, then the elders will let the police handle that.

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

About issue how elders will monitoring Individual persona aka molesters is funny idea.

Not really. The police also monitor a sexual predator that has been released from prison. How do you think the police do it? Do you think they are with the person 24 hours a day 7 days a week? Of course not. There are various degrees of how a person can be monitored. Prison is the best way. The other ways depend on the reasonable ability of the ones doing the monitoring. For example the elders will be alert to anything going on in the congregation or congregation activities. But they will not sit inside his house, or go shopping with him. Neither will the police.

49 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Trouble part in quote about it is this;  elders will inform parents of minors within the congregation of the need to monitor their children’s interaction with the individual.

They said here about informing, NOT all CONGREGATION in public announcement , NOT all CONGREGATIONS IN WHOLE COUNTRY, ....BUT ONLY PARENTS OF MINORS in particular congregation!! 

Is this enough? Policy makers decide how it is. WT Lawyers obviously gave advice about this way of dealing with issue. Maybe must be that way. Don't know. But looks problematic to me. I am aware how no one have "perfect" solution on this. But it seems to me, how WT experts not gave enough efforts for PROTECTING children and their families.  

See my comment to John about the same question. Is it enough? I don't know. What I do know is that the goal is to protect children. As you say, there may be laws on what you can and cannot do. But regardless, I am sure you will agree, no one wants children to be harmed. What I do know is that if a perpetrator moves to another congregation, their record card is sent to the new congregation, and all those details will be on that record card. 

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

elders will inform parents of minors within the congregation of the need to monitor their children’s interaction with the individual. 

That is not the same as informing the whole congregation. If Elders only inform the parents that have children. 

And this does not help parents outside the congregation to protect their children. 

" If it is determined that one guilty of child sexual abuse ..."  If it is thus determined then I hope the Elders report it to the police so that the outside community can be protected too. 

So do you think that because only parents with minor children are informed, that 'so and so' is a danger to children, i.e. is a sexual child molester, it will not become common knowledge in the whole congregation? Come on, you know better than that . Short of announcing from the platform that 'so and so' is a pedophile, this is another way of letting the whole congregation know.

And yes, that is the goal, that someone determined guilty of child sexual abuse is reported to the police in order for the rest of the community to be protected. In America, such a person is put on a sex offender registry for life, and anyone can find their name and address. Also these people are not allowed to live within a certain perimeter of schools and other child facilities.

5 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

21 hours ago, Anna said:

This is irrelevant. You are making the mistake of mixing two separate things together. You do not need two witnesses to make a report to the police. This is only for congregational action.

For secular police not, you are right. But for inside "Police", victims must have two witnesses. No change, no progress. This is not good, because Bible told us about examples where you do not need two witness for making "justified" allegation/accusation.

Srecko, it is still irrelevant. It does not matter. The ultimate goal is that the perpetrator does not molest any more children. How this is done, whether by the police, the elders, or both does not matter.  Remember, the handling of the matter by the elders does NOT replace the handling of the matter by the authorities.

7 hours ago, Arauna said:

yet, he may look repentant and yet go and do it again.... but time will tell.

The problem with that reasoning is that what has to happen for time to tell? Another child is molested? Do we "sacrifice" another child so when that happens we then know for 'sure' this person is a danger and needs to be constrained in a more effective way? (i.e. prison and counseling etc.).

7 hours ago, Arauna said:

The congregation will never be informed of  a case.

In cases of child sexual molestation, unlike other judicial cases (adultery, fornication etc.)  the congregation will be informed according to the new guidelines:

par. 11. If it is determined that one guilty of child sexual abuse is repentant and will remain in the congregation, restrictions are imposed on the individual’s congregation activities. The individual will be specifically admonished by the elders not to be alone in the company of children, not to cultivate friendships with children, or display any affection for children. In addition, elders will inform parents of minors within the congregation of the need to monitor their children’s interaction with the individual.

https://www.jw.org/en/news/legal/legal-resources/information/packet-jw-scripturally-based-position-child-protection/

47 minutes ago, Arauna said:

  I do not see the age of the young man... was he under age?  

2 hours ago, Anna said:

The young man ( who's name I have ) would have been in his very early twenties at the time, 

 @Shiwiii @Jay Iza @Srecko Sostar please read carefully what @JOHN BUTLER  posted on November 18th 2018: and ask yourselves,: should John report this to the police and/or social services? Or is it just me, @Outta Here and @JW Insider and (maybe others like @Arauna @TrueTomHarley)who think John should report it? 

I have been given this information :-

Somewhere between 18 months to 2 years ago, a young man that is a member of Honiton Congregation (my ex congregation) committed a sexual offence against a young girl that would have been around 7 or 8 years old at that time.. 

The young man was visiting the home of this child and he went up to the girl's bedroom and asked the girl to have sex with him. I do not think that sexual intercourse took place but from the information that I've been given, he laid her on the bed and got on top of her and 'humped' her as if he were having sexual intercourse with her.  

The incident was reported to the Elders and the police were not informed. I have no idea what action the Elders took but the congregation were not informed.

The young man ( who's name I have ) would have been in his very early twenties at the time, but his mental age is lower. He is a bit slow in learning things and possibly has mental disorders. That is not meant as an insult, but i do know this young man personally and he does act a bit strange sometimes and frightens people.  

The young man's father was a single dad of three children ( i knew this man quite well ), but he invited a foreign lady (a sister in the JW Org) over to the UK, and they married. The marriage did not go well as the woman wanted to 'be the boss'. They split up and she went back to her country of origin. But then she came back to have a 'second try' at the marriage.  I do not know the marriage situation at this time. However the whole issue would have been totally upsetting for the three children, especially for this young man that found it difficult to cope with some situations. 

The person that gave me this information, in my opinion, is completely trustworthy, and once again in my opinion, would not have any reason for making up a 'story'. As I was given the young man's name, and i know the young man and his father, it all seems quite genuine to me.

Now i come back to the duty of care.  For, in my opinion, it is the duty of anyone that has any information concerning child abuse to report it to the police. 

This could be just a one off incident, but it could be the start of a young man becoming a pedophile. I honestly don't know where my duty is here. 

The young girl that was the victim of this assault may need help getting over the situation. The information was also that the father of the victim does not want 'any trouble'. Hence he did not want the police involved. That helped the Elders to keep it secret, well almost. 

Now this young man may commit sexual assault again, within the JW congregation or outside of it.  And that young lady will be in fear of him and yet still have to attend that Kingdom hall where she will see him every week. 

So should i report what i have been told to the police or not ? Of course I would have to tell the police it is only third hand information.

BUT, if the police could get hold of the 'records' / paperwork from the Kingdom hall regarding the incident, then it would be proved as true. 

I do not expect that the Elders would willingly hand over paperwork, so I've no idea how it would work out in the end. But it's my actions that I'm concerned about here , my responsabilites. What should i do ?  

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

John, I know that at least three people, including myself advised you to go to report this to the police or social services and we were disturbed and still are that you are so reluctant to go. It is obvious to me that this "young man" may pose a real danger to children. I do not wish to be insulting either, but it is well known that people with mental retardation tend to have a higher than normal sexual drive and they may not have the same moral restraints as other people.

The rest of the post can be found here:

4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

' still have 20 years worth of info' about Child Abuse accusations.  Info which they will not willingly give to the authorities. 

You have absolutely no idea how this works in the real world do you? Having 20 years worth of child abuse accusations is of absolutely no use to the authorities unless the survivor/victim makes a report to them first. When a report is made to the authorities  by survivor/victim it is taken to court and the courts ask for any reports made, then the reports are handed over.

2 hours ago, Jay Iza said:

This makes me laugh, making excuses why or not a child molester or a sexual crime should or shouldnt be expose to the authorities or the congregation to safe guard others..... oh well.... 

It's not a laughing matter and it's not that simple. It would be great if it was! By your comment I can see that you have never had any experience with something as complex as this. In fact it shows me you have absolutely no idea. Why don't you at least do some reading up on the subject, to educate yourself, before you make thoughtless sweeping statements like this.

Here are a few things to start you off:

https://www.socialworker.com/feature-articles/ethics-articles/To_Report_or_Not_To_Report%3A_That_Is_the_Ethical_Dilemma/

http://psycnet.apa.org/buy/1999-04243-002

https://www.mnpsych.org/index.php?option=com_dailyplanetblog&view=entry&category=industry news&id=172:the-importance-of-being-earnest-ethics-and-child-abuse-reporting

https://www.psychiatryadvisor.com/childadolescent-psychiatry/mandatory-reporting-of-child-abuse/article/802017/

Before you say that these articles apply to social workers, therapists only,  you need to realize that disclosures made to elders are no different, and that elders experience the same dilemmas because the information given to them may be the same as that given to social workers, therapists etc.

3 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

So what happened to the scripture about, 'if you are conscripted to walk one mile, then walk two miles' ? In other words, give much more than you are asked for.  I said it so many times but you and others will not listen. It is not about the legal obligation, it is about doing what is right in the eyes of GOD. 

What nonsense. Has it not occurred to you that just as you are concerned about slander and defamation, then so are the elders. You know you cannot just nilly willy hand out confidential information about others. So you are not willing to do it yourself, to go that extra mile, why? You don't know anything about the information the elders have in your congregation at all. You don't even know whether they went to the police or not. Everything you say about your elders and the case are just assumptions.  And you just keep making one excuse after another for why you will not go to secular authorities. If you don't want to go to the police, or the elders, why don't you at least go to social services? I mean I am hoping you are worried about the perpetrator molesting someone else. Or are you not worried?

1 hour ago, Anna said:

2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Did WT open secret files and fully cooperate with police and Courts?

Yes, WT always hands over any necessary confidential documentation pertaining to a case. WT will not hand over confidential documentation that has nothing to do with a specific case. The supreme court agreed with WT on that. (Any $4,000 fines per day were reversed and removed).

One more thing on that Srecko; the lawyer Zalkin has hundreds of files (in his words) from WT in his office, that he is not allowed to show to anyone by law*. So WT have given him many more documents, more than he needed.

* why doesn't he make them public if it would help victims? Because he would immediately lose his license as a lawyer for breaching the confidentiality law. (or as you say secret). So he doesn't want to risk that of course.

2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

We do not need this imagination because we have real people with real events dear Anna.

That's why I said:

3 hours ago, Anna said:

Let's think of a hypothetical situation in your case (this can be very real)

But my response and reason for giving this example was because you wanted to know: " if it is so as this declaration No 10 say, than WHY elders must contact Legal Department first on how this purely religious proceeding must continue. ??

1 minute ago, Srecko Sostar said:

In one hand your word is right Anna, but Shiwiii have better argument because Natural Law, or if you like Bible verses, have stronger argument, and that is; ..... do what is good in your eyes, by your conscious, what is good before people and before God, obey God more than men. Or if you want Ultimate and Final bible text about ALL things in LIFE ----- Love your neighbor as yourself.  

 

...so what ever GB or WT Manual Book or lawyer or Court or police say .....do love  .... and do find the way. 

Yes. No argument against that.

10 minutes ago, Anna said:

14 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.

How come this does not come into the minds of jws when talking about CSA and the authorities? 

You are funny. This is what we have been talking about. When the law of the land "the authorities" obligate a person who has heard of an allegation of CSA to report to the authorities, then JWs will report to the authorities.

You are the one that brought it up

3 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

so why doesn't the policy state to bring it up to the police? 

 

Do you have to be told??  I thought you said one does not have to be told these things. Even the police do not tell a survivor/victim they have to talk to them (the police).

1 minute ago, Shiwiii said:

so jws have to wait until forced to what is good? 

Of course not. You were the one making the point.

3 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

Romans 13 says they are bound by means of doing what is good. 

Yes. And that is what they will try to do.

1 minute ago, Shiwiii said:

Romans13

1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, 4 for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. 7 Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.

 

How come this does not come into the minds of jws when talking about CSA and the authorities? 

You are funny. This is what we have been talking about. When the law of the land "the authorities" obligate a person who has heard of an allegation of CSA to report to the authorities, then JWs will report to the authorities.

23 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

If conversation about this issue can make frustration of sort inside this circle of us who talking from distance to each other, imagine what heavy and hard and painful it is for those who experienced this things and must be in face to face situation ! 

Yes. This goes for both, the survivor/victim and those who are asked to handle the situation.

59 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Did WT made change about need for TWO witnesses?

This is irrelevant. You are making the mistake of mixing two separate things together. You do not need two witnesses to make a report to the police. This is only for congregational action.

59 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Did WT allow that sisters/women be present in investigation process as support for male and especially female minors victims and other victims  no matter of ages? 

9. Elders never require victims of child abuse to present their accusation in the presence of the
alleged abuser. However, victims who are now adults may do so, if they wish. In addition, victims can
be accompanied by a confidant of either gender for moral support when presenting their accusation to
the elders. If a victim prefers, the accusation can be submitted in the form of a written statement

59 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Did WT allow that sister/women be involved in Judicial process that involve sex crimes and domestic violence inside and outside family environment when female victims are involved? 

No, and they never will because it is not scriptural.

59 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Did WT open secret files and fully cooperate with police and Courts?

Yes, WT always hands over any necessary confidential documentation pertaining to a case. WT will not hand over confidential documentation that has nothing to do with a specific case. The supreme court agreed with WT on that. (Any $4,000 fines per day were reversed and removed).

30 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Elders DO NOT INFORM the congregation that there is a Pedophile within it. They certainly would not name the Pedophile. 

11. If it is determined that one guilty of child sexual abuse is repentant and will remain in the
congregation, restrictions are imposed on the individual’s congregation activities. The individual will
be specifically admonished by the elders not to be alone in the company of children, not to cultivate
friendships with children, or display any affection for children. In addition, elders will inform parents
of minors within the congregation of the need to monitor their children’s interaction with the individual

30 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

And it seems you are advising the idea of hiding a Pedophile within the JW Org, 

Yes John, I want all those little children in your congregation to be molested

30 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

By not informing the police it would be hiding that Pedophile in that congregation. It would also be protecting a criminal. 

Quite strange really as this is what you are accusing me of, failing in my duty to report it.  But in this 'hypothetical situation' he would have first hand evidence, therefore be more entitled to report it, and more morally duty bound to do so. 

Keep making excuses. Heck John, give me one of your elders emails and I will tell them myself!

30 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

But also, are you saying that the Elders are not bound by scripture / service to God, to report it to the police, even if there is no 'law' of the land to do so ?

Correct, they are not bound by scripture if there is no law to report to the police. They are only bound by scripture to deal with it in the congregation. It is not in their jurisdiction to go beyond what the survivor/victim wants. If the survivor/victim does not want it reported, and it is not the law for them to do so, then the elders have no obligation to report scripturally or secularly. HOWEVER if the elders discern that other children, or the victim is still in danger, then the elders will take it upon themselves to report to the police. But this is left to their discretion and their own conscience. In other instances they may actually be advised by the branch to report even if there is no legal duty to do so.

5. When elders learn of an accusation of child abuse, they immediately consult with the branch
office of Jehovah’s Witnesses to ensure compliance with child abuse reporting laws. (Romans 13:1)
Even if the elders have no legal duty to report an accusation to the authorities, the branch office of Jehovah’s
Witnesses will instruct the elders to report the matter if a minor is still in danger of abuse or
there is some other valid reason. Elders also ensure that the victim’s parents are informed of an accusation
of child abuse. If the alleged abuser is one of the victim’s parents, the elders will inform the
other parent.

30 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

  yet are not bound to care for the safety of people inside and outside the JW Org ? Is there not obligation for such ones to care for widows and orphans, and little children within and outside the Org if it is possible for them to do so. 

Yes, of course, it is the elders obligation. But there is only so much they can reasonably do, as you say "if it is possible for them to do so".