Anna

You are funny. This is what we have been talking about. When the law of the land "the authorities" obligate a person who has heard of an allegation of CSA to report to the authorities, then JWs will report to the authorities.

Yes. This goes for both, the survivor/victim and those who are asked to handle the situation.

This is irrelevant. You are making the mistake of mixing two separate things together. You do not need two witnesses to make a report to the police. This is only for congregational action. 9. Elders never require victims of child abuse to present their accusation in the presence of the alleged abuser. However, victims who are now adults may do so, if they wish. In addition, victims can be accompanied by a confidant of either gender for moral support when presenting their accusation to the elders. If a victim prefers, the accusation can be submitted in the form of a written statement No, and they never will because it is not scriptural. Yes, WT always hands over any necessary confidential documentation pertaining to a case. WT will not hand over confidential documentation that has nothing to do with a specific case. The supreme court agreed with WT on that. (Any $4,000 fines per day were reversed and removed).

11. If it is determined that one guilty of child sexual abuse is repentant and will remain in the congregation, restrictions are imposed on the individual’s congregation activities. The individual will be specifically admonished by the elders not to be alone in the company of children, not to cultivate friendships with children, or display any affection for children. In addition, elders will inform parents of minors within the congregation of the need to monitor their children’s interaction with the individual Yes John, I want all those little children in your congregation to be molested Keep making excuses. Heck John, give me one of your elders emails and I will tell them myself! Correct, they are not bound by scripture if there is no law to report to the police. They are only bound by scripture to deal with it in the congregation. It is not in their jurisdiction to go beyond what the survivor/victim wants. If the survivor/victim does not want it reported, and it is not the law for them to do so, then the elders have no obligation to report scripturally or secularly. HOWEVER if the elders discern that other children, or the victim is still in danger, then the elders will take it upon themselves to report to the police. But this is left to their discretion and their own conscience. In other instances they may actually be advised by the branch to report even if there is no legal duty to do so. 5. When elders learn of an accusation of child abuse, they immediately consult with the branch office of Jehovah’s Witnesses to ensure compliance with child abuse reporting laws. (Romans 13:1) Even if the elders have no legal duty to report an accusation to the authorities, the branch office of Jehovah’s Witnesses will instruct the elders to report the matter if a minor is still in danger of abuse or there is some other valid reason. Elders also ensure that the victim’s parents are informed of an accusation of child abuse. If the alleged abuser is one of the victim’s parents, the elders will inform the other parent. Yes, of course, it is the elders obligation. But there is only so much they can reasonably do, as you say "if it is possible for them to do so".

“Within the congregation, ours is a spiritual protection...we are talking about physical protection, that is up to the secular authorities to provide” Well yes! Do you hear anyone arguing that point? No, because it is true! You yourself have said the Elders are not the police. So now you want them to act like the police?

Let’s put a few things into perspective: 1) A survivor of a sexual attack (JW or Non JW) is NEVER obligated to report the assault to the Police. Never. 2). A JW survivor of a sexual attack (if perpetrator is JW) is scripturally obligated to report this to the Elders in the same way that someone finding out about adultery is scripturally obligated to tell the elders so the wicked man can be removed: 1 Corinthians 5:9-12. And vs 5 “you must hand such a man over to Satan” and (Deutoronomy 17:7) “you must remove what is bad from your midst”. Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that if wrongdoing in a congregation was covered up, then Jehovah would remove his spirit from that congregation. A congregation must be kept morally clean. 3) If the law of the land does not obligate second parties to inform the Police, then the reporting can be left to the first party. 4) If the law of the land obligates second parties (or anyone who learns of merely an allegation) to report to the police, then they will and must report to the police. (John Butler!) With this information, please use your intelligence to figure out the various scenarios possible in the case of child sexual molestation.

This is why Srecko: Let's think of a hypothetical situation in your case (this can be very real). Let's say your older brother sexually molested you when you were young. You never told anybody, but now you feel you should tell the elders because your brother is JW. But you don't want to go to the police, because you know it would kill your mother, (who is old and sick) and devastate your father. You love them both very much. You go to the elders and tell them you have some important information regarding sexual assault when you were young. If they know they are mandated reporters (I don't know the law in Croatia) they will tell you that whatever you tell them, they will have to tell the police. So you have a choice. To tell them or not to tell them, or how much to tell them. It is up to you. Now if the law of Croatia does not mandate people to inform the police, then you can tell them the situation, and also tell them you do not want the police involved, you just want the congregation to be informed to protect the children in that congregation. Now think of America. Every state has its own laws, which change regularly, and not everyone knows them. When the elders call the legal department they are told about the reporting laws of that particular state. The legal department is very familiar with the law and any changes because that is their job. Now the elders can go back to the one who wants to tell them about an abuse, and they can inform him/her of the situation and leave it up to the person to tell them as much as they want. I am sure you, as the victim, would appreciate to be informed of that choice. That's because it is true, the examples he gave were from the past. He said elders were allowed to work with children alone. This never happens anymore (since at least the late 90's). Yes, ARC is from 2015, and as you say, again talking about things from the past. But I don't understand the rest of your sentence. How do you mean no progress was made in benefit for the victims? Can you please explain that. With some proof to back up your claim. Please, if you are going to say this, back it up with quotes from the deposition.

Ye all harken! John Butler from a little town in the UK knows! This has nothing to do with slander. You say the elders already know the whole case. You going to the elders would be to ask them if they have gone to the police, and if not, to tell them that as someone who has learned of an allegation, you are obliged by law to go. You are just giving them heads up. This conversation doesn't have to be awkward or nasty, just polite and to the point. You don't have to tell them who told you or how you know. You need to call them, and set up an appointment to see them, or for them to come to your house. All you need to say is that you have something of a very serious matter to talk to them about. Why don't you give them a chance John, instead of accusing them of things you really have no proof of? Seriously? Of course if you started going into an emotional rant about how the org purposefully hides pedos in the congregations and that all JW teachings are false, then maybe. But you will be talking to them very briefly, letting them know, because it's only fair, that you will be going to the Police with the information you have been given because it is your duty as a citizen of the country. That's all. I was clearly being sarcastic John. I think it's a real shame you are so reluctant to do your part in protecting children, considering you seem to be so concerned about it. I am beginning to wonder...... You can be certain that if I had got the information you did, I would have gone to the police and elders the next day! So who is more concerned?

Excuses. You haven't even tried. Bit of a bummer for the children if the accused molests again. I don't get you John, I really don't....

I listened to the ARC when it was broadcast live. I have the transcripts too. There have been policy changes, you must have missed that bit.

Your question was about WT policy wasn't it?? So I quoted the policy. It is both. Spiritually it is a sin, legally it is a crime. Since the elders are concerned with spiritual things in the congregation and not law making, they focus on the sinful aspect. This does not negate nor replace the criminal aspect. I don't need anyone to point out the difference to me. Do you? I mean would you go to the police and say "so and so has committed a sin". You would get funny looks wouldn't you?

10. Child abuse is a serious sin. If an alleged abuser is a member of the congregation, the elders conduct a Scriptural investigation. This is a purely religious proceeding handled by elders according to Scriptural instructions and is limited to the issue of membership as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. A member of the congregation who is an unrepentant child abuser is expelled from the congregation and is no longer considered one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. (1 Corinthians 5:13) The elders’ handling of an accusation of child abuse is not a replacement for the authorities’ handling of the matter.—Romans

I believe the victims, and yes, this did happen years ago. This sounds like the Candace Conti case,, that happened in the 80's This also happened in the 80's You live and learn. I can assure you this no longer happens. What has been happening in recent years is exactly as is written in the document, with the addition that now the child molester is made known to parents. Why don't you test out the safe guarding policy yourself, instead of claiming that it is not being followed? Why don't you tell the elders of the accusation you have learned of? 5. When elders learn of an accusation of child abuse, they immediately consult with the branch office of Jehovah’s Witnesses to ensure compliance with child abuse reporting laws. (Romans 13:1) Even if the elders have no legal duty to report an accusation to the authorities, the branch office of Jehovah’s Witnesses will instruct the elders to report the matter if a minor is still in danger of abuse or there is some other valid reason. Elders also ensure that the victim’s parents are informed of an accusation of child abuse. If the alleged abuser is one of the victim’s parents, the elders will inform the other parent

Well it's for everybody to see and check for themselves isn't it? I mean If I was a mother and my child told me someone from the congregation molested them, and I would go to the elders, I would expect things to go according to that "safeguarding policy". And if it didn't, I have that document to point to don't I?

John, have you gone to the police or social services about the child sexual molestation allegation you know of?

What about: https://www.jw.org/en/news/legal/legal-resources/information/packet-jw-scripturally-based-position-child-protection/ Isn't that clear enough?

Lots abut it here: http://dismythed.blogspot.com/2016/06/Malawi-Mexico.html

So you are esentally saying that every Witness should be able to preach their own ideas to other Witnesses, and out on the ministry. How do you envisage that in practice? I mean give us an example of how this would operate.

Not only that, but perfection is relative.

Yes. Just because you love facts, doesn't mean you love someone bad. Unfortunately emotions take over rationality. My son came home from school one day, they had just had history, and he was telling me that Hitler had done a lot of good for the people (jobs etc.). I understood what he meant. He did a lot of good initially. But that doesn't mean we think Hitler was a wonderful man. Those gas chambers and concentration camps were real.

Yes, you are very correct of course. But I am the exception. You see I am totally unbiased Seriously though, it is a very interesting subject and I wish I had more experience of it as an adult. As a child I could not understand why people were not allowed out of their own country and why the borders were guarded by soldiers with guns and dogs, not to stop people coming in, but to stop people leaving. At one time my mum and I were traveling out of the country (because we could) on a train and the border guards were searching underneath the trains with flashlights and dogs. There was barbed wire everywhere. Just wanted to add one more thing. Some people may not realize but many of our illustrations in our publications remind some people of communist propaganda, especially those where people are seen building houses and sharing food. After the iron curtain fell it took some brothers and sisters a while to get used to some of those illustrations. Not so long ago my mum gave her study the Kingdom book, and this lady, in her 70s' was horrified and said it's like communism. Well it kind of is isn't it? Lol. Maybe someone should create a topic for this in the JW only club...

I think the best way to really know about life behind the iron curtain is to have the "privilege" of having experienced it. Not even I experienced it fully, (only when vacationing there) but my mother has, and many of my peers who stayed behind have, while my mum and I were allowed out because of my mother marrying a foreigner out of the country. My grandparents defected shortly after the country was overtaken by the "Bolsheviks", as we called them. They couldn't go back until after the the fall of communism. My grandmother cried when she and grandpa returned and saw the dilapidated and forsaken state of the towns and villages. No money had been invested into any kind of upkeep, and anything that was manufactured was shipped off to Russia....which wasn't much anyway. I could tell stories upon stories... I have not read Solzhenitsyn, but I imagine not everything he wrote was accurate, just like not everything that communist propaganda told us about life in the West was. One of my distant relatives, a staunch communist herself, believed that Americans were so badly off that they had to eat out of garbage cans. As regards violence, yes, a few people mysteriously disappeared, but mainly, oppression came from a much subtler direction. Education, decent jobs, and pretty much anything else depended on whether you supported the communist party or not. So people pretended to do so, while they did their own thing. The motto was; "if you don't steal from the state, you are stealing from your family". Everyone had to to work, but the quality of work was nonexistent because no one cared since nothing was for them anyway. Funnily enough many people look back on those times with a kind of nostalgia, because although no one had anything no one had to chase after anything either, because there was nothing to have. There was no ambition, but no stress either. So people concentrated on having a good time. Work days were short and weekends were long. Most families had country cottages where they would spend all their free time with family and friends. It was a kind of solidarity that does not exist any more, and some people miss that. Who had it most difficult were political dissidents and Jehovah's Witnesses of course because they did not pander to the communists. Brothers were sent to work in coal mines and so were the political dissidents. Quite a few spent some months in jail. Intellectuals, the bourgeois, and highly educated people were not trusted either, and of course many of them defected to the West. My grandfather had a thriving engineering company that he had to give up, and he went to jail for a short time, but I forget the exact reason, I will have to ask my mum.....

Definitely.....About the view

Well, it looks like something is going to be brewing on the horizon soon, either by mans hand or by Gods....whichever comes first.

This is nothing surprising to me. I can't say this is happening right now, but not many years ago British pedophiles would travel to certain east European cities and seduce underage boys as young as 8.These boys would "prostitute" themselves for gifts, expensive meals and money. This is a true fact, and nothing much was done about it. It wasn't even organized crime back then, it probably is now.