Anna

37 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

 

“Within the congregation, ours is a spiritual protection...we are talking about physical protection, that is up to the secular authorities to provide”

Well yes! Do you hear anyone arguing that point? No, because it is true! You yourself have said the Elders are not the police. So now you want them to act like the police?

Let’s put a few things into perspective:

1) A survivor of a sexual attack (JW or Non JW) is NEVER obligated to report the assault to the Police. Never.

2). A JW survivor of a sexual attack (if perpetrator is JW) is scripturally obligated to report this to the Elders in the same way that someone finding out about adultery is scripturally obligated to tell the elders so the wicked man can be removed:  1 Corinthians 5:9-12. And vs 5 “you must hand such a man over to Satan” and (Deutoronomy 17:7) “you must remove what is bad from your midst”. Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that if wrongdoing in a congregation was covered up, then Jehovah would remove his spirit from that congregation. A congregation must be kept morally clean.

3) If the law of the land does not obligate second parties to inform the Police, then the reporting can be left to the first party.

4) If the law of the land obligates second parties (or anyone who learns of merely an allegation) to report to the police, then they will and must report to the police. (John Butler!)

With this information, please use your intelligence to figure out the various scenarios possible in the case of child sexual molestation.

2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

If it is so as this declaration No 10 say, than WHY elders must contact Legal Department first on how this purely religious proceeding must continue. ??

This is why Srecko: Let's think of a hypothetical situation in your case (this can be very real). Let's say your older brother sexually molested you when you were young. You never told anybody, but now you feel you should tell the elders because your brother is JW. But you don't want to go to the police, because you know it would kill your mother, (who is old and sick) and devastate your father. You love them both very much. You go to the elders and tell them you have some important information regarding sexual assault when you were young. If they know they are mandated reporters (I don't know the law in Croatia) they will tell you that whatever you tell them, they will have to tell the police. So you have a choice. To tell them or not to tell them, or how much to tell them.  It is up to you. Now if the law of Croatia does not mandate people to inform the police, then you can tell them the situation, and also tell them you do not want the police involved, you just want the congregation to be informed to protect the children in that congregation. 

Now think of America. Every state has its own laws, which change regularly, and not everyone knows them. When the elders call the legal department they are told about the reporting laws of that particular state. The legal department is very familiar with the law and any changes because that is their job. Now the elders can go back to the one who wants to tell them about an abuse, and they can inform him/her of the situation and leave it up to the person to tell them as much as they want. I am sure you, as the victim,  would appreciate to be informed of that choice.

3 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Your respond on John's post is how things he mentioned is from past, in 1980 es.

That's because it is true, the examples he gave were from the past. He said elders were allowed to work with children alone. This never happens anymore (since at least the late 90's).

3 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

ARC is from 2015 and WT elders in Australia are very bad role model as those elders from 1980 period. No progress was made in benefit for victims. All because of money and WTJWorg Corporation Public Picture.

Yes, ARC is from 2015, and as you say, again talking about things from the past. But I don't understand the rest of your sentence. How do you mean no progress was made in benefit for the victims? Can you please explain that. With some proof to back up your claim.

3 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

According to your brother Asch in his deposition, he made this CLEAR DISTINCTION about PHYSICAL SAFETY and SPIRITUAL SAFETY and how WT GB and their Lawyers defending themselves and their money and their Organizational Honor.

Please, if you are going to say this, back it up with quotes from the deposition.

6 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

still continues to hide Pedophiles in it's ranks.

Ye all harken! John Butler from a little town in the UK knows!

6 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

But of course you want me to put myself on the line, to be accused of slander, by Elders

This has nothing to do with slander. You say the elders already know the whole case. You going to the elders would be to ask them if they have gone to the police, and if not, to tell them that as someone who has learned of an allegation, you are obliged by law to go. You are just giving them heads up.  This conversation doesn't have to be awkward or nasty, just polite and to the point. You don't have to tell them who told you or how you know. You need to call them, and set up an appointment to see them, or for them to come to your house. All you need to say is that you have something of a very serious matter to talk to them about. Why don't you give them a chance John, instead of accusing them of things you really have no proof of? 

6 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Then they could tell the congregation that i am an apostate, and give everyone, what they would consider, a genuine reason, for not talking to me. 

Seriously? Of course if you started going into an emotional rant about how the org purposefully hides pedos in the congregations and that all JW teachings are false,  then maybe. But you will be talking to them very briefly, letting them know, because it's only fair, that you will be going to the Police with the information you have been given because it is your duty as a citizen of the country. That's all.  

6 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

If you were really concerned you would think it more than 'a bit of a bummer' for all the victims Earthwide, those in the past and those now. 

I was clearly being sarcastic John. I think it's a real shame you are so reluctant to do your part in protecting children, considering you seem to be so concerned about it. I am beginning to wonder......

You can be certain that if I had got the information you did, I would have gone to the police and elders the next day! So who is more concerned?

3 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

 

And i cannot talk to the Elders as I have left the org and not one of the 120 / 130 people will talk to me. 

Now i haven't told people not to talk to me, so it's their fault if I cannot warn them. I left the Org so that i could warn people, but those congregants have chosen of their own free will (because of fear of punishment) not to talk to me. 

 

Excuses. You haven't even tried.

3 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

So i no longer feel responsible. 

Bit of a bummer for the children if the accused molests again. I don't get you John, I really don't....

3 hours ago, Jay Iza said:

Should watch the Australian royal commission on child sex abuse within JWs victims which is available online and you will see first hand how our procedures and everything is handle within the organization, you will be shocked. 

It has been some years since then and we have heard nothing from it and no 1 policy changed even though many several recommendations were given by the Australian commission to be changed.

I listened to the ARC when it was broadcast live. I have the transcripts too. There have been policy changes, you must have missed that bit.

5 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

So you are not going to give your answer, and instead regurgitate what the wt says.  

Your question was about WT policy wasn't it??  So I quoted the policy.

5 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

Did you notice that nothing is said of taking this "serious sin" to the police, when in fact it is a serious crime? 

It is both. Spiritually it is a sin, legally it is a crime. Since the elders are concerned with spiritual things in the congregation and not law making, they focus on the sinful aspect. This does not negate nor replace the criminal aspect.

I don't need anyone to point out the difference to me. Do you? I mean would you go to the police and say "so and so has committed a sin". You would get funny looks wouldn't you?

2 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

Why cant the policy state to take it to the police first? 

Who is more trained to handle these types of situations? Elders/police? 

10. Child abuse is a serious sin. If an alleged abuser is a member of the congregation, the elders
conduct a Scriptural investigation. This is a purely religious proceeding handled by elders according
to Scriptural instructions and is limited to the issue of membership as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. A
member of the congregation who is an unrepentant child abuser is expelled from the congregation and
is no longer considered one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. (1 Corinthians 5:13) The elders’ handling of an
accusation of child abuse is not a replacement for the authorities’ handling of the matter.—Romans

8 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Do you believe these victims or do you think they are all guided by Satan to tell lies against the GB and the ORG. 

I believe the victims, and yes, this did happen years ago.

9 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Evidence given in at least one court case says that an Elder sexually assaulted a young girl when the Elder took the girl on the ministry in his pick up truck.

This sounds like the Candace Conti case,, that happened in the 80's

10 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

In another case a  girl said she was sexually assaulted when an Elder was giving her a bible study. 

This also happened in the 80's

You live and learn. I can assure you this no longer happens. What has been happening in recent years is exactly as is written in the document, with the addition that now the child molester is made known to parents.

Why don't you test out the safe guarding policy yourself, instead of claiming that it is not being followed? Why don't you tell the elders of the accusation you have learned of? 

5. When elders learn of an accusation of child abuse, they immediately consult with the branch
office of Jehovah’s Witnesses to ensure compliance with child abuse reporting laws. (Romans 13:1)
Even if the elders have no legal duty to report an accusation to the authorities, the branch office of Jehovah’s
Witnesses will instruct the elders to report the matter if a minor is still in danger of abuse or
there is some other valid reason. Elders also ensure that the victim’s parents are informed of an accusation
of child abuse. If the alleged abuser is one of the victim’s parents, the elders will inform the
other parent

4 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

What they put in print does not match up with what they do in practice. 

Well it's for everybody to see and check for themselves isn't it? I mean If I was a mother and my child told me someone from the congregation molested them, and I would go to the elders, I would expect things to go according to that "safeguarding policy". And if it didn't, I have that document to point to don't I?

John, have you gone to the police or social services about the child sexual molestation allegation you know of?

What about:

https://www.jw.org/en/news/legal/legal-resources/information/packet-jw-scripturally-based-position-child-protection/

Isn't that clear enough?

On 1/7/2019 at 3:28 PM, JOHN BUTLER said:

Yet they found it quite alright to bribe government officials in Mexico to get a card like the victims were required in Malawi.

Tell us more about this please 

Lots abut it here:

http://dismythed.blogspot.com/2016/06/Malawi-Mexico.html

7 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

. If JW rank and file member dare to change established and official understanding of some GB doctrines

So you are esentally saying that every Witness should be able to preach their own ideas to other Witnesses, and out on the ministry. How do you envisage that in practice? I mean give us an example of how this would operate.

16 hours ago, FelixCA said:

Can you explain how a mortal soul can accomplish this? Perfection means a sinless state just as was Christ. Adam and Eve lost that sinless state. How can an imperfect person be perfect?

 

Not only that, but perfection is relative. 

6 hours ago, JW Insider said:

It's also easy to see what happens to those who have tried to get a more accurate picture if the new picture conflicts with a current one.

Sometimes it must seem like an argument that goes like this:

• A. Hitler killed 40,000,000 people.
• B. No he didn't, he only killed 20,000,000 people.
• A. Why do you love Hitler?

Yes. Just because you  love facts, doesn't mean you love someone bad. Unfortunately emotions take over rationality. My son came home from school one day, they had just had history, and he was telling me that Hitler had done a lot of good for the people (jobs etc.). I understood what he meant. He did a lot of good initially. But that doesn't mean we think Hitler was a wonderful man. Those gas chambers and concentration camps were real.

6 hours ago, JW Insider said:

This is definitely true. Of course, each person will have their own experience. And the same overall decisions will effect everyone differently. If you were part of a poor peasant family under the terribly inefficient system of serfdom under czarist Russia, then you will have quite a different experience after 1917 from one who had a business in St. Petersburg. Or if you lived in one of the 14 provinces that Russia gave up to Germany during WWI, but had to give back after the German losses and the 1918 Treaty of Versailles. Or if you had been part of the Duma, or if you were yourself a prior landowner, or if you were a person like one of the large variety of characters in Tolstoy novels, Pushkin, Dostoevsky, or Sholem Aleichem (Tevye - Fiddler on Roof, etc).

Yes, you are very correct of course. But I am the exception. You see I am totally unbiased

Seriously though, it is a very interesting subject and I wish I had more experience of it as an adult. As a child I could not understand why people were not allowed out of their own country and why the borders were guarded by soldiers with guns and dogs, not to stop people coming in, but to stop people leaving. At one time my mum and I were traveling out of the country (because we could) on a train and the border guards were searching underneath the trains with flashlights and dogs. There was barbed wire everywhere.

Just wanted to add one more thing. Some people may not realize but many of our illustrations in our publications remind some people of communist propaganda, especially those where people are seen building houses and sharing food. After the iron curtain fell it took some brothers and sisters a while to get used to some of those illustrations. Not so long ago my mum gave her study the Kingdom book, and this lady, in her 70s' was horrified and said it's like communism. Well it kind of is isn't it? Lol.

Maybe someone should create a topic for this in the JW only club...

I think the best way to really know about life behind the iron curtain is to have the "privilege" of having experienced it. Not even I experienced it fully,  (only when vacationing there) but my mother has, and many of my peers who stayed behind have, while my mum and I were allowed out because of my mother marrying a foreigner out of the country. My grandparents defected shortly after the country was overtaken by the "Bolsheviks",  as we called them. They couldn't go back until after the the fall of communism. My grandmother cried when she and grandpa returned and saw the dilapidated and forsaken state of the towns and villages. No money had been invested into any kind of upkeep, and anything that was manufactured was shipped off to Russia....which wasn't much anyway. I could tell stories upon stories...

I have not read Solzhenitsyn, but I imagine not everything he wrote was accurate, just like not everything that communist propaganda told us about life in the West was. One of my distant relatives, a staunch communist herself, believed that Americans were so badly off that they had to eat out of garbage cans. As regards violence, yes, a few people mysteriously disappeared, but mainly, oppression came from a much subtler direction. Education, decent jobs, and pretty much anything else depended on whether you supported the communist party or not. So people pretended to do so, while they did their own thing. The motto was; "if you don't steal from the state, you are stealing from your family". Everyone had to to work, but the quality of work was nonexistent because no one cared since nothing was for them anyway.  Funnily enough many people look back on those times with a kind of nostalgia, because although no one had anything no one had to chase after anything either, because there was nothing to have. There was no ambition, but no stress either. So people concentrated on having a good time. Work days were short and weekends were long. Most families had country cottages where they would spend all their free time with family and friends. It was a kind of solidarity that does not exist any more, and some people miss that. Who had it most difficult were political dissidents and Jehovah's Witnesses of course because they did not pander to the communists. Brothers were sent to work in coal mines and so were the political dissidents. Quite a few spent some months in jail. Intellectuals, the bourgeois, and highly educated people were not trusted either, and of course many of them defected to the West. My grandfather had a thriving engineering company that he had to give up, and he went to jail for a short time, but I forget the exact reason, I will have to ask my mum.....

55 minutes ago, Outta Here said:

You call that gushing?

Definitely.....About the view

Well, it looks like something is going to be brewing on the horizon soon, either by mans hand or by Gods....whichever comes first.

This is nothing surprising to me. I can't say this is happening right now, but not many years ago British pedophiles would travel to certain east European cities and seduce underage boys as young as 8.These boys would "prostitute" themselves for gifts, expensive meals and money. This is a true fact, and nothing much was done about it. It wasn't even organized crime back then, it probably is  now.

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Stalin still comes in at first place in yearly Russian popularity polls, and Putin is #2.

I did not know that!

10 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Translierated left to right as it appears on the paper, this is אֶל־גֹּוג or GOOG-LE.

Quite a coincidence for a word that has a curious prophetic meaning in Scripture, and a word that is so ubiquitous on the Internet that it transcends translation. It is a trademark, a mark of that wild, beastly thing we call the Internet.

Ha! That explains everything! No wonder I had problems with Google translating some words (as I posted in a topic on the "JW's Only" club) it didn't want me to find the truth!!!!!

I remember the Polish film "A night with Stalin". I am not even sure if it is in English, but it portrayed Stalin as most people see him, as a crazed, murderous paranoiac. It was a good movie and quite chilling. But as with everything, there are always two sides to a story...

Correction: It was a Russian film, directed by Yuri Kara, and was screened in the US under the name "The Feasts of Belshazzar"

19 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I have never seen ANYTHING in the Bible prohibiting drunk UGLY clothes.

I have! 1 Timothy 2:9. 

Of course what's ugly or immodest is a matter of societal opinion.