Anna

2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

blood ties remain and normal family affections and dealings continue."???  

Yes, this is a little misleading, because it only applies to members living in the same household.

46 minutes ago, SuziQ1513 said:

I suspect the BoE is not exempt if they are not careful

I know of an elder who had an extramarital affair for 10 years, while serving as an elder. I wonder how he justified it, especially when sitting on judicial committees and disfellowshipping people for immorality. The mind boggles....

He is no longer an elder and has been disfellowshipped. Anything that is hidden will be revealed, sooner or later.

1 hour ago, SuziQ1513 said:

To their benefit,

I think you might mean to their "credit" (the GB). Otherwise it could sound like they benefit from uniting 8+ million. Some could take it the wrong way (especially on here) and think financially and mercenary way.  Unless by "their"  you mean to the benefit of the 8+ million.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

If only you could understand that the JW Org is run by fear not love. Just as the Pharisees did it back in the time of Jesus.  

Now that Tom has brought my attention to this, on further thought, it is a strange thing to say. Why would it help if I understood that the Org. is run by fear not love? I thought that it was MY perception of how it was run that mattered. If I feel loved and unafraid inside the Org. , then what's wrong with that?

6 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

That Anna is nothing but a big chicken.

Hey! You leave me out of this!

I thought hot cross buns were only British, are they in  America also?

48 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Why did you put 7 in brackets ? The GB comprises of 8 men. 

It was 7 until not long ago, when Kenneth Cook joined this year. I was assuming your disenchantment with the GB is not recent, therefor my comment about your feelings of being controlled was in reference to the 7 members.

48 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Quite funny though how you copy the GB, the GB say that some of those of the anointed have mental issues. 

I never said the anointed had mental issues, nor you, but your reasoning has put you in a unhappy state of mind. That is what I meant.

48 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I was clever enough not to share my feelings with others in my congregation, because that would have given the elders an excuse to disfellowship me. The reason they would have used is "Causing a division within the congregation". So i calmly emailed as many elders as possible and told them i was leaving the JW Org. Then i had the meeting to confirm it... However the GB gives orders that the elders are not allowed to say someone has left, so the elder can only say that so and so,  'is no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses..

I hate to tell you, but if it was announced that you are no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses, then you have been disfellowshipped. And by the way, the reasons for disfellowshipping are never disclosed.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Because JW congregants are frightened of upsetting the elders, and the elders are frightened of the GB. The GB make up rules so that they have power over others. The elders enforce those rules. The shunning thing for instance. Totally against the word of God and against the things Jesus taught.  A person may think they have 'friends' in the Organisation but if that person decides to leave the Org' (because the Org is doing things wrong) then they find they no longer have any of those 'friends'. But if you asked any of those ex 'friends' what scripture they are following by not talking to you, they would not have a clue. They just do as they are told by the elders, who in turn just past on the messages from the GB...  It appears that the Elders also try to tell the marriage mates of those that leave the Org' not to discuss scriptural things with the one who has left. So where do the elders get this instruction from ? 

The Child Abuse problem brought about because the GB continuously told the congregants not to report it to the police or the outside authorities. And the GB told the elders not to tell the congregants that there were / are Pedophiles within those congregations. However the GB were secretly collecting information about said Pedophiles from at least 1997 onward.  

Jesus himself said it would be very bad for anyone that causes the stumbling of one such young child. My my, how much stumbling has the GB caused, and proof of it is now very clear Earthwide. .. Unless you bury your head in the sand and do not know the truth about such things.... 

And as I've said before the GB, 8 men, most of whom are American, also say that they are the only ones that God is working through and that the others of the anointed are not being used in that way. Then to add insult to it, the GB say that some of those who say they are anointed, are mentally ill. Has Jesus given the GB the right to judge others ? I think not. 

Tell me, what do you think ? When Jesus was killed was it on a stake or a cross ? If on a stake, where were his hands ? How many nails were used on his hands ? Where were these nails placed ?  Thomas said that he would not believe until he saw the 'holes' (plural) in the HANDS (plural) where the NAILS (plural) went through. However the GB had the picture made of Jesus hanging on a stake with ONE NAIL through both wrists.  You might say it's a small point but the scripture says at Luke 16 v10 "The person faithful in what is least is faithful also in much.... "

Your GB are not faithful to God, nor do they follow the footsteps of Jesus Christ. 'By their works you will know them'. Yes indeed. 

Oh dear, you do have a lot of issues going on. Nothing that I haven't heard before though. I am sorry you feel you were being controlled by (7) 8 men. That's not a good place to be mentally, or spiritually. I won't try and refute anything you said because I feel you are not in an objective frame of mind anyway, and a "person convinced against this will is of the same opinion still".  As regards whether Jesus died on a cross or a stake, frankly I don't care, I really don't think it's important, in my opinion.

5 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I pray to God only through Jesus Christ.

As far as I know every one of Jehovah's Witnesses does that.

5 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

  I'm saying it's the GB that have put themselves in place of Jesus Christ as mediator.

You are saying that indeed, and I am sorry you got that impression because the GB don't view themselves that way. So what gives you that impression?

4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I think in many cases the GB are just trying to impress the public, just as the Pharisees did. Put on a show of 'righteousness'. 

Yes, that's your opinion. My opinion is the video is embarrassing and would not impress the public.

4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Do the GB really think the young people in Bethel don't know about the massive amount of Child Abuse going on in the Org ? Hypocrisy at its best. 

That's a whole different topic and a very complex one. Unless you've been directly involved in this issue or have had several personal experiences you can't really know what you're talking about. This topic is discussed elsewhere if you want to comment there.

19 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

But the point here in this discussion seems to be is it important for the JW 'bosses' to blow this out of all proportion ? Or are they using it as a way of pretending to be 'righteous' ? 

As someone already mentioned, this video is for a selected audience only, those who are to serve in Bethel. Although the org. has mentioned the inappropriateness of masturbation for a Christian, based on principles in the Bible, it has only done so  occasionally. It has not been blown out of all proportion. However, addiction to pornography has become a big problem (in the world too) and I have no doubt that masturbation has a lot to do with it.  As James 1:14 warns: " But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn sin, when it has been carried out, brings forth death."

On 9/19/2018 at 10:34 PM, JW Insider said:

There could be an implication that those in supposedly Christian nations are in pretty much 'the same boat' as those in nations who have barely (or never) heard of Jesus.

I agree, but I meant it more in the sense "who will they call on if they've never heard" in which case, I guess, Jehovah can read their hearts and predict how they would have reacted had they heard.

On 9/19/2018 at 10:34 PM, JW Insider said:

So if it were based on our efforts as Witnesses to reach these persons, then the patience of our Lord would mean greater death and destruction to billions more people.

True!

So going back to God reading hearts, that will ultimately have to be the case, I can't see how else people could be judged righteously. We (the org.) don't seem to say much about that though. We talk about those billions who have died (apparently over 100 billion to date). But we don't talk about those who will be alive during Armageddon.

6 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

In any Corporation, the ONLY way to correct things that are seriously wrong, is to fire those responsible.

NOTHING else actually works !

Not always a solution though is it? It very much depends on who takes their place!

13 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Even though in February, it almost killed me, I REFUSE to quit!

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Around Armageddon, which could be a literal time for that final "decision point" we envision that there will be clear signs from heaven. Will any persons at this time, who see these signs from heaven, have a heart condition like those persons in Sodom, who would have repented?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have a feeling I read somewhere in our publications (not too long ago) that it will be too late for those at Armageddon to repent.  There are plenty of scriptures that make it clear that only those who put faith in Jesus will be saved....but I don't think there is anything that puts a time frame on it.  Also it might be easy for those who live in Christian countries to put faith in Jesus at the last minute, but what about those in non Christian countries, who don't know much about Jesus or the requirement for salvation. So it would make sense that judging those might involve the reading of hearts, especially considering that there are nearly over 3 billion of such people.  In that case why does WT make that statement about it being too late? What of those over 3 billion people, does the org. believe we will reach all those people before Armageddon, I doubt it.  (I know this has been discussed in a topic here somewhere before, I think I might have I even created that topic)

On 9/18/2018 at 12:44 PM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

The whole point of my berating this particular issue is that is "low hanging fruit", that is to say,  this is an almost universal experience of almost EVERYONE that is alive, or ever lived, , whereas murder is (presumably) NOT., so it is an EASY subject to address ..... But even that is not the main  point.

The MAIN point is " Do not go beyond the things that are written".  

Jehovah God has spoken against MANY things, sometimes dozens or perhaps hundreds of times.  O.K. ... THAT is "O.K. to reiterate as good counsel, but for crying out loud ... things that He has expressed NO OPINION ON WHATSOEVER .... leave the people alone!

Do not load a heavy burden upon them because we feel down to OUR bones that it MUST be the will of God ... WHEN GOD IS IGNORING IT.

I DO NOT LIKE WOMEN WITH MAKEUP.

I feel it is disingenuous, and clownish, and narcissistic. 

But THEY like it, and I can see no reason to burden people by lying that it is the will of God that they not paint their faces.  I could even say this is "an unclean practice" and immoral, if I believed that (which I do not), and invoke ambiguous scripture, or MANY scriptures that pretended to support whatever  pet agenda I might have.

The MAIN point is " Do not go beyond the things that are written".  

When we do, it opens up a Pandora's Box of creating a mindset that allows for ANY pet idea or bogus agenda to become acceptable ... and when invoking the false authority of God to support our sad, criminal silliness, we dishonor God, and chase people AWAY from the TRUTH.

I could expound on this theme for many pages .... but the major problem we have in the Truth today, is Victorian culture and personal preferences ... ARE PRESENTED AS THE WILL OF GOD!

This actually slanders Jehovah and his Christ, making them hand puppets where we are supplying the words.

The MAIN point is " Do not go beyond the things that are written".  

This issue is just the classic example of how the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

" Do not go beyond the things that are written".  

 

 

I get what you're saying. And yes, I'm sure you know of religions that have done that very thing, banned make up based on scriptures about modesty etc.

But masturbation isn't in that category, (of going beyond what is written) it has to do more with self control as part of the Christian personality that we are supposed to cultivate.

On 9/18/2018 at 2:47 AM, Gone Away said:

Yes, in terms of Christian morality.

I agree. The thing is, no one will get disfellowshipped for masturbating.

6 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

If i understand English sentence construction correct you said 2 separate things, correct me please if i am wrong, or give me explanation.

1) masturbation never leads to.... sexual immorality with another person?

2) masturbation never leads to .. thoughts about sexual immorality  with another person?

Two separate things. But if 1) doesn't happen, then 2) probably will. 

7 hours ago, Gone Away said:

Are you assuming this requires more than one person?

Traditionally yes. Were you thinking masturbation falls under sexual imorality? 

31 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

 Ok... I give up .... what does THIS scripture have to do with this car accident, resulting in six drownings?

I will take the liberty of answering this one as @Gone Away has probably gone to bed. But duh! Obviously it means that God right now does not protect anyone physically, and that if you are in the wrong place at the wrong time then you will cop it, most likely.  Why doesn't God protect his people physically right now? Because he is allowing Satan to do his thing for now. However, if you die faithful, then your future life is safe with Jehovah. It is our spirituality he is interested in, because that means our (everlasting) life.

1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

With humans ... there is truly INFINITE VARIETY of what one thing leads to another.

Sure, but in this instance I was talking about one thing specifically. There is more chance of someone having immoral thoughts when they masturbate, than if they take a cold shower.

Plus, someone who is masturbating cannot be said to be deadening their desire as per Colossians 3:5, (generally speaking, as there are always exceptions to the rule)

27 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

You might think that if Jehovah cared about such things as men and women masturbating he would have mentioned it AT LEAST ONCE in the Bible.

It must be one of those things that are down to principle, not a law.  Perhaps this is the principle: " Deaden, therefore, your body members that are on the earth as respects sexual immorality, uncleanness, uncontrolled sexual passion,  hurtful desire, and greediness, which is idolatry". Colossians 3:5

I am not saying this as a rule, but in all honesty, could it be said that masturbation never leads to sexual immorality, or thoughts of it? 

15 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

What if she had been in need for more then a "small dose"?!. Some persons fall in desperation, is suicidal emotions. What if daughter made suicide after unanswered call?? Because this can be very real Life scenario that WT want to escape for manipulative reasons on convention's public. What would parents, and mother especially, who not want to respond on phone,  think of WT helping methods "for the greater and long term benefit of a person" after funeral of their daughter?? 

I understand everything you say. Don't get me wrong, I was never agreeing with this video, in fact I think it's one of the worst videos WT has ever made. What I was doing was refuting what someone said, about love being switched on and off. It isn't. The love is still there, and a lot of heartache for the parents who believe this is the right thing to do for the benefit of their child. 

Like you say, no situation is the same. I have reasons to believe the scenario in the video was based on actual events. I know of a very similar one myself. However, as you say, this video does not take into account any other circumstances that could happen in real life. For that reason  I think it is a dangerous video, especially for someone who  is bound to do things unquestioningly. I am hoping most parents who know their child well, and who are in a similar circumstance, will know how to act so that a tragedy does not happen.

27 minutes ago, Jack Ryan said:

Here is the answer:

A real world conversation with a JW....

"As long as you're not disfellowshipped..."

This is a perfect demonstration of conditional love.

It's evident that both understood how disfellowshipping would affect future interaction with each other. They both understood that it doesn't mean that there is no love, or that the love is conditional, or that there would never be any help.

With regard to biased persons, or those who are opposed to the Witnesses, the wording is rather unfortunate, however it does not necessarily reflect every Witness response.

54 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Well, who have "love" or greater "love"? JW mother who not want pick up phone for her daughter or Catholic who put his life for person who is not Catholic?

Who has greater love; someone who does something for the greater and long term benefit of a person, despite the extreme emotional hurt it causes themselves, or someone who does something believing it is only a temporary fix and will not benefit the person in the long run, but it's easier on the emotions?  You can apply any scenario here. Perhaps a parent with a drug addicted child, or an alcoholic...etc. It's called tough love.

We have no way of knowing, but perhaps the "mother" may give her life to save a Catholic if the opportunity presents itself one day.....