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Anna

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    1975 was in the past. Are we HONEST about it TODAY?

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    Posted

    11 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

    In the past??? 

    What is different today, on Saturday,  September 15 2018 ??

    :))

    Well actually Friday Sept 14 2018 is the past xD. I might be wrong on this, but I think in English when one uses the term past in the context that I did, doesn't necessarily mean "distant" past it can mean any time between many years ago and yesterday. One could be more specific and say not long ago, or in the distant past. I was talking about the past that I know of, which could be not very long ago at all, but I don't know, so that's why I just said past. I do not know what the exact status of the answer to that question is today (Saturday, Sept 15 2018). You seem to feel nothing has changed.

    1975 was in the past. Are we HONEST about it TODAY?

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    Posted

    13 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

    and there never has been any way to fire these charlatans, and there isn't any way to fire them today.

    I wouldn't call them charlatans. I think they truly believed what they said, and if they tried to cover some failings, then that is just because they were human. There are plenty of examples in the scriptures of God's chosen ones doing this or that. The only human mentioned in the Bible that did everything perfectly was Jesus. And I wouldn't worry about firing someone, that is God's business. Also, everyone will stand in front of God and render an account.

    1975 was in the past. Are we HONEST about it TODAY?

    in Topics

    Posted

    11 hours ago, Gone Away said:

    Why is this?

    Is it: Lack of confidence in leadership? Disobedience to moral requirements? Lack of desire to preach? Preference for materialistic goals? Fear of man? Expected "end" took too long? Stumbled over other's immorality? Believe apostate distortions?

    Or is it: Don't believe we are in last days? Don't believe 1914CE was when time ran out for Satan? Don't believe Governing Body are spirit appointed and directed? Disillusioned over end-time teachings?  Suspicions of financial irregularity? Don't agree with "shunning" non-dependant relatives? Don't agree with prohibition on primary blood components only?

    Or what?

    I guess you've pretty much completed the list. I can't think of anything else....

    Although I must add that some of these reasons in themselves are not enough for some to quit. There are some in the truth, and faithful, in spite of feeling some of those things on the list. And there are many who just don't even know about some of these issues....heck, many don't know why we believe in 1914. They assume it's because of WW1 and that's good enough for them. Some things are just too complicated to analyze and "make sure of", and so they remain kind of blissfully covered over. I agree, knowing about some of these things can be faith shaking. Ignorance is bliss indeed. And yet, there is so much that makes sense also. To me, at least. As an organization we are a work in progress and in the past we were made out to be...well..."almost" infallible. It is only in recent years (and perhaps due to unfulfilled interpretations) have we, as an organization, admitted that we are not always going to be right. More to the point; the Governing Body isn't always going to be right, in fact they are only "scratching the surface" (Br. Herd quote). It is a very difficult thing sometimes to trust someone who has failed you in the past. And yet this is what is being asked of us. But the good thing is we have an infallible source to fall back on, the Bible. So in my opinion, when there are scriptures that are a little ambiguous, but are interpreted in a certain way by the Slave, from past experience, should I be blamed if I find it hard to embrace this particular interpretation, and  would rather wait and see?

    It is a very difficult thing. Do you think it's possible to have a good and close relationship with Jehovah, and yet be wary sometimes about what the Slave says? In the past these two things were inseparable. If you were not agreeing with the Slave, you were automatically against Jehovah.

    1975 was in the past. Are we HONEST about it TODAY?

    in Topics

    Posted

    40 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

    The 1918 sermon was based on the 1925 date as found in the 1917 book, "The Finished Mystery." The "canvas" offer for that book, remember, only required that people stay alive until 1925 in order to be among the "millions" who would never die.

    Aaaah, I thought there was a book that mentioned the "millions will never die" not just a sermon. I am connecting the dots now, thank you! It looks like Rutherford also authored a book with that title. (Also I get how the millions couldn't have referred only to the Bible students, as there wasn't a million of them yet).

    So since this topic is about 1975, it doesn't apply to this, however the question regarding honesty is the same, are we being honest about the millions and 1925? How is the statement "proof conclusive" being  explained today, since the proof was obviously false. And statements such as this:

    54 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

    "to apply it to ourselves requires positive knowledge based upon indisputable evidence. Thousands of profound Bible scholars can prove from Bible prophecies which have been fulfiled during the last 5 years that those living until the year 1925 can live forever if they choose to do so."   ". . . [H]ear and consider definite Scriptural proof for this proclamation."

     

    1975 was in the past. Are we HONEST about it TODAY?

    in Topics

    Posted

    4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

    Technically, you would need at least 2 million persons to make the plural "millions" part come true, and we would evidently have needed Armageddon to come sometime around 2016 in order for 2 million 98+ year-olds to still be alive, who had just born in March 1918. Perhaps, some worldwide estimates of the number of 99+ year-olds in 2017 could have been around to potentially survive Armageddon.

    Technically yes, but practically, we know, and everyone else knows, when that statement was made it was not referring to babies born in 1918 and people living till they were nearly a 100. It was was talking about those who were in the audience at the time and perhaps of average age, which would probably be 35 to 45 year olds?

     

    4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

    Remember that the "great crowd" of Revelation 7 were still going to heaven along with the 144,000 kings and priests, according to Russell's and Rutherford's teachings.

    Actually I never knew that!

    4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

    Understanding the original prophecy in its full context is a good idea, in order to understand how and why the references to it have evolved over time. Maybe in another thread?

    Yes please. I don't know much about it. I just know that this talk was given and that obviously it was.....well......wishful thinking at best and totally false at worst. And I guess it had a lot to do with the 1925 campaign.

    What I wondered was if our latest publications have mentioned anything about it. I can look it up too...

    PS. The last mention of "millions now living will never die" that I have in my WT CD library is from 2009 WT . The article was a life experience entitled "Ninety Years Ago I Began to ‘Remember My Grand Creator" one excerpt says this:

    "Some months before this incident at school, our family had moved to live near Glasgow in Scotland. About that time, Father attended the public talk entitled “Millions Now Living Will Never Die.” It changed his life. Father and Mother began studying the Bible and often talked together about God’s Kingdom and the blessings to come. I thank God that from then on my parents brought me up to love God and to put my trust in him."— WT/2009/7/15

    Most likely today this brother is dead...

     

     

    If the organization did not actually prophesy the end in 1925 and 1975, then how come so many Witnesses left the faith immediately afterwards?

    in Topics

    Posted

    5 minutes ago, Grey Reformer said:

    It did not take the brothers very long to find the chart beginning on page 31, showing that 6,000 years of man’s existence end in 1975. Discussion of 1975 overshadowed about everything else. “The new book compels us to realize that Armageddon is, in fact, very close indeed,” said a conventioneer.”

    There is a little bit more than that, that they wrote. You're not being entirely honest nor fair.

    If the organization did not actually prophesy the end in 1925 and 1975, then how come so many Witnesses left the faith immediately afterwards?

    in Topics

    Posted

    2 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

    As in the movie "The Matrix" it all boils down to what is acceptable to you personally .... do you want to live in a peaceful, tranquil world of complete fantasy (The Blue Pill), or the dangerous and hard world of reality (The Red Pill).

    If you refuse to choose, you get force-fed the Blue Pill, from the unplugged refrigerator.

    It's late JTR. Go to bed and stop worrying about pills

    If the organization did not actually prophesy the end in 1925 and 1975, then how come so many Witnesses left the faith immediately afterwards?

    in Topics

    Posted

    3 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

    When you are claiming to represent Jehovah God,  the standards are higher than " ... we were all just self-deluded incompetent fools, looking to preserve our jobs and positions".

    If they are NOT .... those PRETENDING to be God's channel of communication have forgotten to plug dat 'ol regriratator into the wall... and the "food at the proper time" is THERE ..... but it is LONG SPOILED.

    A reasonable person might expect SOMETHING ..... ANYTHING "prophesied" to be right ...

    Even a blind pig will OCCASIONALLY find an acorn.

    How have  we done on that issue? (..and I am NOT talking about literal acorns)?

    Hmmm?

    Of course we (they) shouldn't be predicting or prophesying anything. The prophesies are already there in the Bible. It's the interpretation of them that's the problem.  And we (they) haven't done all that well so far....

    If the organization did not actually prophesy the end in 1925 and 1975, then how come so many Witnesses left the faith immediately afterwards?

    in Topics

    Posted

    3 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

    Heard anything from ANY platform?

    Seen any evidence in ANY publication?

    Know about any internal "reform" movement?

    Heard about any Governing Body Member quitting in disgust?

    I have not, to ANY of the above.

    THAT'S how I know.

    Hard evidence.

    But you can't see inside peoples hearts.

    If the organization did not actually prophesy the end in 1925 and 1975, then how come so many Witnesses left the faith immediately afterwards?

    in Topics

    Posted

    3 hours ago, Gone Away said:

    As an organisation of believers use the Watchtower medium as a channel, then it could be said to reflect the collective views of it's members. So in voicing blame for it's members having erroneous ideas, surely it is blaming itself?

    Yes, I agree. It's just that if someone already has a negative perspective on the whole situation they can't but help interpret  wrongly. And I think this could be because it was all termed so ambiguously, that there was room for interpretation. We have to remember that we are an organization that has a head, Jesus. But apparently Jesus uses the Slave as a channel of communication, so short of blaming Jesus, who else can we blame, logically? It can't be the ordinary publisher can it? And not even those in the writing department since everything has to be approved by the Slave first. I feel there would have been no room for misunderstanding had the WT clearly said that the Slave, aka those in charge of dispensing spiritual food were to blame. But this has never been the custom, to be straight up about things like this. I have never heard, and I am sure you haven't either, a straightforward apology from the GB/Slave/those dispensing spiritual food. It's as if they are afraid they may lose the trust and respect of the congregation if they were to be candid about their failings. Because it is the Slave who interpret scripture for us, nothing that we know of the Truth comes from our own interpretation of the scriptures. So if the scriptures are interpreted wrongly, whose fault is it? We know whose fault it is. But it would be nice to have it spelled out black on white at times, and not insinuated in an evasive manner. The Bible writers were so upfront about their failings, "miserable man that I am!". One of the characteristics of the Bible is its candor. If only WT leadership could emulate this in their publications....

    As a side issue, but still relevant to the discussion, does anyone know how the "millions now living will never die" has been explained away?

     

    4 hours ago, Gone Away said:

    I have been on field service with one of the anointed who shouted through the letter box that an uninterested  householder would be destroyed at Armageddon. Haven't you?

    Yes! xD I wonder, was it perhaps the same person!

    4 hours ago, Gone Away said:

    "Read the Bible Daily" was the best bit of advice I was ever given. I have come across some odd ideas (and people) over the years, but nothing where I couldn't sort out the sense from the nonsense, with the help of the one who flicked the wheels off Egyptian chariots (Ex.14:25).

    Same here!

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