Anna

57 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Coincidence is NOT the same as causality.

Of course. I wasn't talking about coincidence though.

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

But all of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether we agree with them or not, because obeying these instructions will save our lives.  - ws13 11/15 p. 20 pars. 16-17 Seven Shepherds, Eight Dukes—What They Mean for Us Today *** [Simplified Watchtower]

This has been discussed before somewhere and you know what my feelings are on this and I've probably mentioned this already but this is a good post to mention it again; the argument seems to be that this reasoning would be following the pattern of the past, where God's people always had to follow some kind of instruction, whether splashing blood on the doorposts, or go somewhere etc. However, the very same people who present this argument say that other things are going to mean our deliverance. Actually just this last midweek meeting the workbook mentions we must prepare spiritually to be saved and we do that by

  There is no mention of listening to any instructions. In any case the Bible might give examples of instructions in the past, but it never mentions anything like that in reference to "judgement day" /Armageddon. On the contrary, we are clearly told that those believing in Jesus will be saved. No verbal instructions which might seem illogical from a human standpoint there. Then there is the scripture in Matthew 24:40 " Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken along and the other abandoned. 41  Two women will be grinding at the hand mill; one will be taken along and the other abandoned" indicating that this can happen without any special instructions.

I wanted to check how the WT interpreted this scripture so I looked it up. There only seem to be three references to it (there might be newer ones that I don't know of) One is from WT 1975: "Weeks earlier Jesus had made a similar statement, prompting the disciples’ question, “Where, Lord?” He answered, “Where the body is, there also the eagles will be gathered together.” (Luke 17:37) The ones “taken along” are spiritually sharp-sighted, like eagles, who gather to the one whom they discern to be the Messiah, for the spiritual feast that Jehovah provides within his place of safety. They will gather together with God’s congregations on earth, under his true Messiah. Those “abandoned” will be those who do not keep spiritually awake and who consequently get swallowed up in a selfish way of life, as did the people in Noah’s day. Such are “abandoned” to destruction along with the world system of things in which they are involved".  Then God's kingdom of a thousand years book has a similar explanation also referring to Luke 17:37, and then the last reference was from WT 54 and in my mind seems the better explanation: "The word used here in the Greek for the expression “taken along” is also used when Joseph is said to have taken his wife home. It is also as when Jesus is said to have taken Peter, James and John along with him into the mount of transfiguration. Jesus used the word when he said: “I am coming again and will receive you home to myself, that where I am you also may be.” (John 14:3; Matt. 1:20, 24; 17:1, NW) Thus, those “taken along” receive a favorable standing with the Lord and are brought into a way of salvation. This corresponds to Noah’s being taken into the ark the day of the flood and to Lot’s being taken by the hand and led out of the city and therefore precedes the execution of judgment."

In context, the question "Where Lord" in Luke 17:37 surely seems to be asking where will the man in the field, and the woman grinding at the mill be taken. And Jesus' answer surely indicates heaven, primarily, and salvation for those not of the heavenly class. But I still don't see any instructions.....because to be taken by the hand (as in Lot and Noah) and led somewhere, are not instructions

1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I sincerely wish someone COULD correct me about the rest of my post.

Ok, here goes:  there may be evidence that we don't know of. We don't know everything. So the correct thing to say would be YOU haven't seen any evidence. There are brothers or sisters who believe they have seen evidence of Jehovah's interference during Nazi occupation. Of course which of it was actually interference from Jehovah we just don't know.....In any case, Jehovah is and has always been concerned more for our spiritual safety, rather than physical safety. If our physical life is in jeopardy and we die, well he can make us live again. However if we are in jeopardy spiritually and it leads to our spiritual death....well...that's different story...

On 8/25/2018 at 12:36 PM, Witness said:

The battle doesn’t take on a physical form with the world’s military armies in the symbolic book of Revelation, but depicts how the rider on the white horse, called “Faithful and True”, defeats the Beast who received “spirit” from the false prophet - all to deceive Christ’s servants…with lies, since that is the weapon false prophets use. 

All spiritual battles must manifest themselves in a physical way eventually.

10 minutes ago, Witness said:

I can see how you might say that, but what scriptures are used to back up the scene?  Isn't the whole point to learn what the Bible actually says?  Are they just being dramatic without sound reason for doing so, to touch the hearts of the audience who will walk away with not one shred of biblical evidence to support what they saw? 

 It is all a fabrication.

It's no more a fabrication than an artist's impression of paradise. I don't think the point was to depict "exactly" how things will transpire because no one knows for sure. The objective was to inspire courage to stand up for what one believes is right. That's what the audience walked away with I would hope.  It was based on Biblical experiences of God's people in the past such as Joshua, Hezekiah and others where God defeated enemies on their behalf.

For our present day Luke 21:27 is quite applicable: "And then they will see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. But as these things start to occur, stand up straight and lift up your heads, because your deliverance is getting near.” 

Personally I thought it was a very well made video. It was nice to include Phelicity Sneesby, the young girl from Australia who died shorty after the video "Jehovah is more powerful than my health problem" was shown. She appears in the "courageous" video to the words of "Lasting harm can never hold me—No prison, gate, or grave".

For those who have been following the last few conventions the video will have more meaning because they will recognize the characters from some of the previous stories.

12 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Group in basement 2016 video was obviously died and resurrected in New World.

Why do you say that?

On 6/18/2018 at 10:34 PM, Jack Ryan said:

The governing body has finally realized that FEAR is the only way to keep the JW's in the organization. I mean seriously standing in a field with soldiers heading your way, guns out... wth?

You completely missed the point of the video.

And those people didn't look afraid at all, and neither did the audience that you said got so emotional.

On 8/16/2018 at 11:41 AM, JW Insider said:

To be fair, I think all this talk about the importance of obedience to men is a mistake.

I'm not sure what you mean by that

On 8/16/2018 at 11:41 AM, JW Insider said:

The problem, in my opinion, is that this emphasis on the importance of obedience to men has now been associated (e.g., summer conventions) with a kind of future "fear-mongering" about the conditions we can expect during the great tribulation. It creates an even heavier load by making us overly concerned about the next day, when we would prefer to think that seeking first the Kingdom would have freed us from such anxiety, throwing our burden upon Jehovah, knowing that Christ's load is light, and his yoke is kind.

I understand what you are saying and believe you are right to some extent. It depends on the person I think though. For example non of the friends that I know seem to be too worried about the conditions during the great tribulation, me included. I can't speak for the others, because I have not discussed this to any depth, but what I find disconcerting is that this "future obedience" is being used as the reason to "obey now". I would think that a sufficient reason would be that without cooperation (I prefer that expression to obedience, because children are expected to be obedient to parents, but adults should be expected to cooperate with other adults) we could not accomplish much. I mean it's common sense. Why the need to emphasize a situation which is based on Biblical examples for survival of the past in the Hebrew scriptures, but doesn't have much support in the Gospels or the rest of the Greek scriptures? Most of the time we do not talk about the need to obey instructions in order to be saved. But it is mentioned every now and again, it was mentioned at this year's summer convention. On the other hand, this weeks mid meeting work book under the section  "We must prepare spiritually so that our deliverance will be assured" makes no mention of  obedience to some instructions but says these are the things which will help us get saved: "developing TRUST IN JEHOVAH, which gives us COURAGE, which leads us to a POSITIVE ATTITUDE, which coupled with BROTHERLY LOVE enables us to ENCOURAGE fellow believers."  (based on Luke 21:28) That makes much more sense to me and follows more what Jesus had in mind. It seems like this "obedience to instructions" is thrown in there randomly every once in a while, without real basis.....

On 8/16/2018 at 11:41 AM, JW Insider said:

This time, by associating these unspecified ways in which we will need to show obedience to men with a certain level of fear-mongering about the great tribulation, we will pay more than the usual attention to men.  (Emphasis mine)

You have a point

On 8/16/2018 at 11:41 AM, JW Insider said:

The Bible indicates that this method can backfire.

• (Proverbs 13:12) 12 Expectation postponed makes the heart sick,. . .

Yes. And I think it's already backfiring to a small extent. Although I know quite a few elderly brothers and sisters who are as faithful as ever and are reconciled with the fact that they may die before the new system comes. Some of their children on the other hand are finding it more difficult...

Yes indeed:

What happens to a dream deferred?

Does it dry up
like a raisin in the sun?
Or fester like a sore--
And then run?
Does it stink like rotten meat?
Or crust and sugar over--
like a syrupy sweet?

Maybe it just sags
like a heavy load.

Or does it explode?”

10 hours ago, Gone Away said:

Has anyone ever considered that this could be a desired outcome?

I am wondering whether by that you mean closing shop, i.e. the end is near

5 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Allen, I noticed that the IP address for "Gray Reformer"

I can always tell it's Allen by the questions marks that are put in odd places in a sentence....besides other things...but that's a dead giveaway

On 6/10/2018 at 3:50 PM, JW Insider said:

Yes. But I'll tell you the real problem I have with manipulating information. And I'm not saying you are the source of the manipulation. First of all, it's no longer "truth" in the most appropriate sense. If something purports to be from a specific source, then anyone who changes that source is putting words in the mouth of someone else. It's therefore the same as a misquote. Since it has very similar meaning, it's more of a paraphrase, but even a paraphrase should identify itself as such.

In the long run, it often weakens the impact of information even when people think it strengthens the impact. Imagine what would happen if a person has excellent information about some mistakes the Watch Tower Society was making. Imagine that some of these, if taken seriously by the WTS, could result in fairness and justice for thousands of people who are now being treated inconsistently and unjustly. There were persons who publicly pointed out the inconsistency between the WTS political stance in Malawi vs. Mexico, for example. But by pointing it out, the WTS may have taken quicker steps to fix the problem they had created in Mexico. And in many other countries around the world, thousands were being unjustly imprisoned for the specific choices they were told that they could and could not conscientiously take with respect to alternative civil service. They, the GB, had already decided that it wasn't that important or even Biblical to hold onto the old traditional practice, and that a change could happen as soon as they found the time to vote on it again. But it was put off for a couple of more years, until a very public reminder was published in an infamous book by an ex-JW. In the meantime, during the delay, hundreds more JWs were unjustly imprisoned, but as soon as the GB voted again, the problem was taken care of just as the ex-JW had said. So what would have happened if that particular ex-JW had a reputation for manipulating information. Obviously, it would have been easy to ignore what he said, and just say that it was more lies from ex-JW apostates. Information can have value no matter where it comes from. Why weaken the value with manipulation?

Also, in the specific case above where some JW-focused information was added, it came across as both pejorative and smart-aleck. Even flippant in the sense of borrowing slightly from the advertising slogan: "Coming to a theater near you!" This gives the impression that whoever wrote it wanted to "stick it" to JWs in particular. This can "back-fire" having a devaluing effect on the value of the information. It is useful to know that there may now be up to SEVENTEEN different victims and that one of them was abused perhaps 100 times. This is important information. But a lot of JWs might look at this poster and say:

• "Look how we are being picked on talking about "Kingdom Halls" like that. Look how they are going after us unfairly. Look how they focus on Kingdom Halls. I wonder if they would say the same about using churches as a hiding place to find sanctuary."

Maybe they would; I don't know. But I do know that everyone has a certain amount of defensiveness that is natural for people of the same "tribe." Our tribe is our worldwide organization, and many Witnesses are quick to defend and grasp at straws to do so. Don't make up evidence. The real evidence is all people need. 

(See updated news release on this same criminal here: https://www.usmarshals.gov/news/chron/2009/122909.htm )

Excellent, JWInsider!

21 hours ago, Gone Away said:

I wish someone who actually through those times as a participant rather than a bystander could give us a comment.

I wish the same....

I also wish someone could explain what the difference was between what happened in Malawi versus what happened in Mexico. But this is completely off topic here. I apologize @TrueTomHarley but this is JTR's fault, he started it

On 8/16/2018 at 12:07 AM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

MEANWHILE ... the Brothers and Sisters in Malawi were being tortured and killed because Bro. Knoor, who signed an oath of allegiance to the United States Constitution, before God and man, refused,  when there  was only ONE political party in Malawi at the time, to  let them buy a 25 cent National ID card. (foreigners were exempt from that requirement).

I lived through those times, when it was all going on, as contemporary news !

I REMEMBER IT !

I lived through that time too, but I did not pay a lot of attention to it as I was too young.  However, a friend helped me to dig up a WT from 1975 that seems to make a distinction between an oath binding one to a person, and an oath to a country.

Here are a few excerpts:

......."Thoughtful Christians weigh the matter in the light of Bible principles before taking any sworn oath. In doing so, they find that some oaths are Scripturally unacceptable. For example, in the days of the Third Reich, every German soldier was required to take this oath: “I swear by God this holy oath that I shall render unconditional obedience to the Führer of the German Reich and people, Adolf Hitler, the Supreme Commander of the Armed Forces, and that as a brave soldier I shall be prepared at all times to risk my life for this oath.” A person dedicated to Almighty God cannot bind himself unconditionally to a sinful human, for Jehovah exacts “exclusive devotion.”...........Hence, despite severe persecution, faithful Christian witnesses of Jehovah in Germany would take no oaths binding them to Adolf Hitler......

..........A true Christian, then, would not take an oath that would involve him in the controversies of the world or that would subject him unquestioningly to the will of another human. But what if a nation required that such an oath be taken by those desiring to become citizens? Could a person dedicated to God take an oath of that kind with mental reservations, reasoning that sex, age or other factors would make it unlikely that what had been sworn would ever be required? The individual must decide, but it would not be Christian to make a false oath of any kind, even if refusal to do so resulted in being denied the rights of citizenship.........

........A citizen of the United States of America who desires to travel abroad will find the following oath on a passport application: “I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservations, or purpose of evasion: So help me God.” If an applicant finds this objectionable, he is permitted to strike this oath from the passport application, and he will not be denied the document on that basis"...........

Awake 1975/7/22 page 27-28

Interestingly this was written during the presidency of Nathan Knorr. 

edit:

In addition this is what the proclaimers book  ch 29, page 674 had to say:

In Malawi, there is only one political party, and possession of a party card indicates membership. Although the Witnesses are exemplary in paying their taxes, in harmony with their religious beliefs, they decline to buy political party cards. To do so would be a denial of their faith in GodÂ’s Kingdom. Because of this, late in 1967, with the encouragement of government officials, gangs of youths throughout Malawi launched an all-out attack on JehovahÂ’s Witnesses that was unprecedented in its obscenity and sadistic cruelty. Over a thousand devout Christian women were raped. Some were stripped naked before large mobs, beaten with sticks and fists, and then sexually assaulted by one person after another. Nails were driven through the feet of the men and bicycle spokes through their legs, and then they were ordered to run. Throughout the country their homes, furniture, clothing, and food supplies were destroyed.

Bellow are the translated contents of the card. I cannot verify the correctness of the translation as I do not speak Chichewa

 

 

Just chiming in with a couple of thoughts. The fact that you (Tom) felt the need to encourage others to appreciate br. Lett indicates that you think some do not appreciate him, and the reason for that is because he is a little different, there is no denying that. So you felt the need to defend him. When I first saw him speaking on jw broadcasting I had to look away, because I couldn't stand looking at his "crazy" gestures. And I know I'm not the only one. But I think we all got used to them now. What did irritate me a little was his pre-school type delivery, but as I said in my comment to you on fb, it is not a big deal as I believe he is genuine, and doesn't mean to sound condescending. What I still can't wrap my head around though is this "need to listen to some type of survival instructions". It may follow a Biblical pattern in the past, but I cant see any indication in scripture that talks about the great tribulation/Armageddon that anything like that will be necessary then. I get suspicious of the kind of statements which urge obedience now, the reason being that we will need to obey later to survive...

1 hour ago, Gone Away said:

(Who are they??? I really don't know who their audience could possibly be??),

You are most likely being sarcastic, but there seem to be a number of "couples" like this who evidently have nothing better to do than make these types of videos. These two look like they may be retired (and inebriated), but there are others who do this in their spare time? It must be a form of therapeutic exercise. I guess whatever works for them....

On 7/17/2018 at 10:02 PM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

In addition to financial penalties paid, the Laurel Congregation body of elders was required to attend the Stewards of Children training program

Ooooh, I bet that was a smack in the face. Our publications have long informed its readers about how to best address child abuse, way before this organization was even set up. Going on their website and reading their education packets....there is nothing new there that we haven't already been taught. It's a pity that these elders gave the impression that they knew nothing about how to handle this issue.

On 7/17/2018 at 10:02 PM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

 Despite his age, the victim was considered a willing participant in consensual sexual acts.

The problem with this is that the state considers the age of consent to be over 16. Not only that but according to a legal website: "Delaware considers having sex with someone under 16 rape. Having sex with someone under 18, if the offender is over 30, is also considered rape. Compared to some other states, the penalties for violating Delaware's age of consent laws are very harsh".

So in view of that, the fact that the 14 year old boy is considered a "consensual participant" by Jehovah's Witnesses, isn't going to go down too well.....

On 7/15/2018 at 3:38 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

To lie, kill, steal, looking woman, dirty words, drinking, be lazy, be fan or member of sport club, cheer for the soccer team, go to coffee with "worldly" aka non-JW colleague except if it is for Bible conversation  and other questionable acts.   

:))

It looks like you are getting hung up on specifics rather than understanding the spirit or principle behind the way a Christian should live.

This reminds me of an episode of only fools and horses ( @Gone Away will probably know what I'm talking about) where Del Boy and Rodney  arrive at one of these funeral parties (wake) dressed up as Batman and Robbin, making a grand entrance busting through the door singing the  "dadadada batman" theme song and spraying all the guests (dressed in mourning attire) with funny string. One of the characters forgot to tell them the guy had actually died the day before and so the fancy dress party had been cancelled.. I wish I could find the scene on youtube, it is really very funny, but I don't think it's there...  The best of British humour in my opinion....

21 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

it is different from the Watchtower's conclusions.

Sorry to be a pain but could you (briefly) outline the differences between WT conclusions and Gerard's conclusions?

The name "Jehovah" on the dome of the Old Catholic St. Martinskirche in Olten, Switzerland, 1521 (wikipedia)

I haven't had a chance to look at Gerard's paper yet, as I need to settle down properly for that, with a cup of coffee or something, but I was wondering why the pronunciation should be so important...

I took a quick peek at what wikipedia had to say about the topic of Jehovah, and with regard to the pronunciation, one of the quotes mentions a scholar named Francis B Dennio who in the Journal of Biblical Literature, said: "Jehovah misrepresents Yahweh no more than Jeremiah misrepresents Yirmeyahu. The settled connotations of Isaiah and Jeremiah forbid questioning their right." Dennio argued that the form "Jehovah" is not a barbarism, but is the best English form available, being that it has for centuries gathered the necessary connotations and associations for valid use in English".

Thanks @JW Insider, it should be a good discussion. I have already got a few of Gerard's papers downloaded from the academia website when we were discussing the controversial "desolation of Jerusalem 587/607" subject. But that's another topic.....

I will take a look at this paper

Jack Ryan is getting a little carried away, perhaps he needs to go for a jog or take up some kind of sports...?