Anna

46 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I am uncomfortable trying to peek between the curtains of the tabernacle into the Holy compartment

Why not, please explain

5 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

If you ignore it, lady - a plain and clearcut brilliant truth -  Let us toy with the number 2022 a bit and see what profound truths are revealed: 22 take away 20 is what? Two!! And what numeral is featured most often in the year 2022? Two again!!

How many times is it featured? Three! Here we see that this  flash of light even has the added advantage of separating the sheep from the goats. Those who accept it for the right reasons - three times for emphasis - enter the gates as a slam-dunk. Those who accept it for the wrong reason - it proves the trinity - are toast. 

 

I hope you are not mocking those who have a tendency to do this along similar lines...!

35 minutes ago, DefenderOTT said:

They have not dedicated their lives to serve Jehovah only until 1975. Christians have been running this way ever since Christ Jesus blazed the trail and commanded his disciples, “Follow me!” So keep this same mental attitude in you that was in Christ Jesus.

To me that means our following Christ and serving Jehovah will not stop with 1975, because it's not dependent on a date. It's just basically stating the obvious, but stating it anyway....just in case some got the idea they can slack off after 75 in the new system.

47 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

42 is interesting number, perhaps some type and antitype is possible to get from 42

You better hurry up, you only have a few weeks left to come up with something

I am really late on the scene here as JWI started this topic in 2016, with the intent of keeping it devoid from any personal attacks but keeping strictly to the subject, which is great. I hope also it will be free from personal bias. I am no scholar and I am just starting to look into the 607/587 chronologies, so please bear with me because I may have some stupid questions!

I wouldn't mind keeping to some order and developing this systematically (otherwise I'll get lost with all you guys who know so much about it)

One thing I wouldn't mind having explained first is the for/at Babylon thing. If this was for Babylon, then some sources suggest this meant the the period of the Babylonian empire, but according to Wikipedia: The Neo-Babylonian Empire  began in 626 BC and ended in 539 BC”

So that there is 87 years is it not? So I am thinking,  why would the 70 years apply to Babylon, rather than to the Jews under Babylonian captivity?

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

But in trying to prepare people for the likely needs during such a time, which is based on speculation anyway, it's probably best to start with reasonable suggestions rather than telling everyone to prepare to follow advice that may sound unreasonable. If you are gong to speculate on what the advice could look like, then speculate on some specific scenarios so people know what you are thinking. Otherwise we are asking for a different type of follower than the ones that Jesus and the apostles asked for.

The bit I highlighted - Very good point.

1 hour ago, Gone Fishing said:

Actually, all JW's are rank and file.

Yes. We are supposedly all domestics, including the Slave/GB

And as a side point, if someone brings up the overlapping generation I'm going to waive my hand dismissively like Br. Herd and go "pfft..."

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I am going to go out on a limb slightly.

2022!!!

Be Ready

only 1457 shopping days left for someone to buy your home.

But come on.......you have to give us at least some basic calculations for your deduction. Otherwise if you don't,  it doesn't count, and I'm going to ignore it. So there!

8 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

I think so. The dominance given to Babylon would have been when Babylon became the obvious ascendant heir to the Assyrian Empire. Egypt had dominance when they were the "world empire" then Assyria had dominance when they were the "world empire." Therefore, it would start around 609 BCE and end in 539 BCE, when Babylon was the "world empire." 

Ok....so that is looking at the dominion of Babylon in general, but wasn't the point of the 70 years referring only to how it affected the Jews politically, i.e. when Jerusalem, as the capital, and the Temple representing everything the Jews stood for, was razed? Wasn't that the coup d'etat? Not all the bits and pieces that occurred all the years leading up to it? (paralyzing fear of Babylon, followed by desecrations by Babylon, deportations to Babylon,  death and destruction by Babylon etc)

22 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

It's the exact same time period given to the 70 years of Babylon over Tyre.

I feel this must be an important point. I have heard about Babylon and Tyre but am not familiar with it. I will have to do some homework on that..

5 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

18 hours ago, Anna said:

the correct understanding

the "current" understanding is all it can ever be until it has passed, and then we "will know accurately", just as we "are accurately known".

I agree with you implicitly. So do you think when Br. Herd made this statement: "And now we know all about that generation, right?"  (about six minutes into Dec. broadcasting) he was actually being ironic? 

3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

The 607 calculation is based on claiming that 70 years ended in 538/7 and it is a CORRECT calculation of the 70 years. (plus or minus one or two years)  It's just that it has nothing to do with the date of the destruction of Jerusalem. It's a very good calculation of the 70 years of dominance given to Babylon.

So is it wrong to say that the dominance given to Babylon started with the destruction of Jerusalem?  I know you gave reasons why we cannot be sure when the 70 years started, but as it stands, it looks like it's down to  interpretation....?

Excuse my being a little thick, but just pretend I am a 10 year old

On 11/4/2017 at 5:51 AM, JW Insider said:

Yes. A 70 year period that ended in 539 would have to have started around 609. And this is a pretty good match for when Babylonian power reared its head over Assyria. The capital of Nineveh fell in 612 and Babylon took advantage and became the next world power. 609 was the year that Josiah died. Josiah was considered by many Jews to be the next potential Messiah, a king like David.

In fact, notice that 609 is exactly the year that the Watch Tower publications point to (indirectly) when it speaks of the end of the Assyrian empire. (Remember that the WTS arbitrarily adds 20 years to every date prior to 587 B.C.E., so that 607 B.C.E.is actually 587 B.C.E., and therefore 629 B.C.E. is actually 609 B.C.E.)

*** it-1 p. 205 Assyria ***

• According to the same chronicle, in the 14th year of Nabopolassar (632 B.C.E.), Ashur-uballit II attempted to continue Assyrian rule from Haran as his capital city. This chronicle states, under the 17th year of Nabopolassar (629 B.C.E.): “In the month Duʼuzu, Ashur-uballit, king of Assyria, (and) a large [army of] E[gy]pt [who had come to his aid] crossed the river (Euphrates) and [marched on] to conquer Harran.” (Ancient Near Eastern Texts, p. 305; brackets and parentheses theirs.) Actually, Ashur-uballit was trying to reconquer it after having been driven out. This record is in harmony with the account relative to the activity of Pharaoh Nechoh recorded at 2 Kings 23:29, which activity resulted in the death of King Josiah of Judah (c. 629 B.C.E.). This text states that “Pharaoh Nechoh the king of Egypt came up to the king of Assyria by the river Euphrates”—evidently to help him. “The king of Assyria” to whom Nechoh came may well have been Ashur-uballit II. Their campaign against Haran did not succeed. The Assyrian Empire had ended.

So this is an excellent match for the 70 years of Babylonian domination from 609 to 539, spoken about by Jeremiah:

• (Jeremiah 25:11, 12) 11 And all this land will be reduced to ruins and will become an object of horror, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon for 70 years.”’ 12 “‘But when 70 years have been fulfilled, I will call to account the king of Babylon and that nation for their error,’ . . .

Just as the Watch Tower publications have explained it in the "Isaiah's Prophecy" book:

*** ip-1 chap. 19 p. 253 par. 21 Jehovah Profanes the Pride of Tyre ***

• “These nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.” (Jeremiah 25:8-17, 22, 27) . . . Evidently, the 70 years represents the period of Babylonia’s greatest domination—when the Babylonian royal dynasty boasts of having lifted its throne even above “the stars of God.” (Isaiah 14:13) Different nations come under that domination at different times. But at the end of 70 years, that domination will crumble.

So that is ONE period of 70 years that started in 609 and ended in 539.

The Bible, in the book of Zechariah, also mentions another period of 70 years that starts around 587 (destruction of Jerusalem) or even 588 when the siege began, and ends around 518. Since it's been so many months I'll repeat some portions of the post you referred to, where this was explained:

------- the remainder of this post copied from a previous post (JWI: 4/14/2017) above -------

(Zechariah 1:12) . . .“O Jehovah of armies, how long will you withhold your mercy from Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, with whom you have been indignant these 70 years?”

(Zechariah 7:5) . . .‘When you fasted and wailed in the fifth month and in the seventh month for 70 years. . .

(Zechariah 8:19) . . .‘The fast of the fourth month, the fast of the fifth month, the fast of the seventh month, and the fast of the tenth month will be occasions for exultation and joy for the house of Judah. . .

*** w96 11/15 p. 5 Does God Require Fasting? ***
For example, at one time the people of Judah had four annual fasts to commemorate the calamitous events associated with Jerusalem’s siege and desolation in the seventh century B.C.E. (2 Kings 25:1-4, 8, 9, 22-26; Zechariah 8:19)

According to our current understanding of the chronology that includes the supposed destruction of Jerusalem in 607 BCE, then this produces a contradiction, because we date the book of Zechariah as follows:

*** nwt p. 1662 Table of the Books of the Bible ***
Zechariah
Jerusalem rebuilt
518
520-518 [BCE]

If Jerusalem was destroyed in 587 BCE, then 518 BCE is 69 years later, and therefore matches Zechariah's theme of 70 years of withheld mercy and indignities, and wailing and fasting over Jerusalem, which is now being rebuilt.

If Jerusalem had been destroyed in 607 BCE, then by Zechariah's time, in 518 BCE, it would have been 89 years of wailing and fasting.

Neither date is "Biblical" and neither date should really matter that much, but it is curious that 607 BCE is totally impossible from the perspective of secular evidence, and it becomes very difficult from the perspective of Biblical evidence. Yet 587 BCE is totally supported from the perspective of secular evidence and provides an excellent match to the Biblical evidence. There should really be no reason why we are not rejoicing that secular, historical, archaeological evidence for 587 BCE once again shows the Bible to be accurate and sound from a historical perspective.

Sorry, I have just now had the chance to return to this.

So basically, from what I can see, the difference between the two dates is this:

The 607 calculation is based on 70 years of desolation to the START of rebuilding the temple in 537/8

The 587 calculation is based on 70 years of desolation to the END (completion) of the temple in 516

So I see it is simply a matter of when the 70 years were considered ended, at the beginning or at the end of rebuilding the temple.

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

5 hours ago, Anna said:

I was hoping that the reason why 1975 was brought up again (at convention) was because it was a reminder that the Slave err, and that some of the new things i.e. the OVERLAPPING GENERATION theory was perhaps to be treated with caution.

I have my doubts that this was the lesson. But you never know.

I was actually being sarcastic, because with Br. Herd's assurance that we NOW know the correct understanding of the generation, my theory about treating the overlapping generation with caution was wrong....regrettably...

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Friends do not require apologies

Just candor and honesty will do...thanks

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

(This, of course, got the writer, R.L., dismissed from Bethel, even though he continued working for the Writing Dept.)

This makes no sense to me. If he was dismissed for his renegade writing, why was he retained as a writer?

That's what I wondered......

54 minutes ago, Gone Fishing said:

It must be a "British" thing. As far as my limited experience goes, we were just not swayed by American hysteria on this matter. We took no notice of end date statements. Maybe we were ALL APOSTATE!!! 

You might be on to something, after all, they were chastised for wearing tight pants.....and what about all those beards...those wayward Brits..

17 minutes ago, Anna said:

It's what in England we call the royal WE, it isn't we, it's just ME!

Or is it an editorial WE?

Wikipedia: The editorial "we" is a similar phenomenon, in which an editorial columnist in a newspaper or a similar commentator in another medium refers to himself as we when giving his opinion. Here, the writer casts himself in the role of a spokesperson: either for the media institution that employs him, or more generally on behalf of the party or body of citizens who agree with the commentary.

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Partly because of eagerness to be alive when Jesus Christ reveals himself in glory, there have been believers throughout the centuries who began looking to a particular period or a year for the windup of the ungodly system of things. This has happened right down to these “last days.” Since certain expectations were not realized, many stumbled and returned to the ways of the world.

w86 3.15  "Yes, Jehovah’s people have had to revise expectations from time to time. Because of our eagerness, we have hoped for the new system earlier than Jehovah’s timetable has called for it. But we display our faith in God’s Word and its sure promises by declaring its message to others. Moreover, the need to revise our understanding somewhat does not make us false prophets or change the fact that we are living in “the last days,” soon to experience the “great tribulation” that will pave the way for the earthly Paradise. How foolish to take the view that expectations needing some adjustment should call into question the whole body of truth! The evidence is clear that Jehovah has used and is continuing to use his one organization, with “the faithful and discreet slave” taking the lead. Hence, we feel like Peter, who said: “Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life".

The problem as I see it is in the FDS/GB's reluctance to make a definite distinction between when they mean themselves and when they mean everyone else. So it's  us/we/some/our/Jehovah's people etc.... all in the one basket. And yet, as we know, when it comes to making decisions on what to believe, everyone else has absolutely nothing to do with it, so any obscuring in that regard is just silly really. It does confuse the issue temporarily, but not for long and it just causes annoyance and becomes counter productive. It's very short sighted and I wish they would stop it.

It's what in England we call the royal WE, it isn't we, it's just ME!

 

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

some brothers on the Governing Body were very vocal that you never admit a mistake because it will be used against you.

Do you have any concrete evidence for that?

10 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

so, in late 1974, I caved in, and quit my job in Zaire, the Congo, and flew back home to Virginia to be with my parents when the "end came"

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

what he said, please? to make you change your mind? in reasoning you made down 

"reason why 1975 was brought up again (at convention) was because it was a reminder that the Slave err, and that some of the new things i.e. the OVERLAPPING GENERATION theory was perhaps to be treated with caution."

because i can not believe that you believe in such logic  you stated

and what kind of logic Herd provide to win your logic

 

I was being sarcastic

I was hoping that the reason why 1975 was brought up again (at convention) was because it was a reminder that the Slave err, and that some of the new things i.e. the OVERLAPPING GENERATION theory was perhaps to be treated with caution.

But how wrong I was!....... listening to Br.Herd.... we have finally got THAT part figured out!

About Charles Sinutko, the District overseer who was one of those who publically, in  front of a very wide audience made several very pointed remarks about 1975 including those already stated on this thread such as ““they know what’s coming, and don’t wait till 75, the door is going to be shut before then!”. No doubt he was one of the contributor to the 1975 “frenzy”.

However, Reading his life story in the  2004/8/22 Awake  it is evident that he is one of the ones “who made the needed adjustments” and who “didn’t run away and didn’t give up” (as per the video) Did he suffer selective amnesia? Surely not...   We don’t know what he thought, because he doesn’t say, but I can picture there must have been some interesting discussions between him and others after 75.

The question has been raised on here, what was the purpose of bringing up 1975 again at the last (2017) convention, and then some theories as to why.

The video was part of the talk “How you can by no means ever fail" based on 2 Peter 1:5-10; Isaiah 40:31; 2 Corinthians 4:7-9, 16

I don’t have time to figure out how to isolate the video from the rest of the talk to post it on here,  but here is a “transcript” beginning with Rachel’s father talking to his grandson with whom he had just attended pioneer school:

“Hard to believe this system would last so long, and I certainly would never believe I would be a grandfather”. Then he goes on to relate how his wife died and how “with Jehovah’s help and the support of the brothers we got through it”.

We learned to rely on Jehovah in ways we never had before – and that helped us when years later, another test came our way. You see, back then, some were looking to a certain date (1975) as signifying the end of this system of things and a few even went as far as selling their homes and quitting their job. I admit, I was ready to see this old system go away too. But something just didn’t seem right. Both at meetings and personal study – I was reminded of what Jesus said “nobody knows the day or hour” . I was dedicated to Jehovah, not a date. After that year came and went most of those who had wrong expectations made the needed adjustments…..and they stayed. We didn’t run away and we didn’t give up. We trusted in Jehovah. And when I see older ones now, I don’t just see grey hair, I see living breathing examples of endurance”.

So what IS the lesson?

On 12/5/2017 at 10:30 AM, JW Insider said:

But, we've just touched a few things: like the generation. Ahhh! [purposely making a sound as if something was bad-tasting in his throat and he needed to spit it out] Twenty years ago we -- "Ahhh" -- the generation. [with a dismissive hand movement] And now we know all about that generation, right?

 

 

 

 

Just steering a little back to 1975, I think maybe the confusion and conflict in this thread regarding what "really" happened apparently come from the fact that some of us are talking about stage 2 and 3, and others about stage 4 and 5. So two different aspects of what was said about 1975, and both aspects are true.

The 5 stages as posted by JWI, as a refresher:

1.The initial idea is floated, often with a bit of caution.

2.Then someone is sure enough to begin championing the prediction and begins to stake their reputation on it.

3.Then as confidence builds, those statements become more and more direct and less careful.

4.Then as the time approaches and the kinds of surrounding expectations that might have validated the prediction aren't there yet, real caution kicks in, and if necessary, some backtracking begins.

5. After the failure is obvious, we can expect blame and finger-pointing.

On 12/3/2017 at 1:33 AM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

and I made many cartoons making fun of the ludicrousness of the 1975 frenzy. 

did you make your cartoons during the 1975 "frenzy" ?