Anna

4 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

Does it really matter? It is garbage wherever it comes from, grandiose claims or not.

I agree, the adage  "truth is truth no matter who says it" works with the opposite too, rubbish is rubbish no matter who says it. Except what constitutes rubbish is sometimes subjective. As for it mattering...well it doesn't matter to me, but it may have made a difference to someone who was in that situation. I am not surprised to hear apostates make fun of us and say something along the lines of "well, as long as he had sex with a sheep his ex won't be scripturally free to re-marry". Thankfully we no longer make these kind of complicated speculisations ( a new word) on scriptures, as was illustrated by JTR with his cat parody, except for a few minor things (at least minor to me) which I won't mention right now, as it's just my opinion anyway.... maybe one can understand a little the trust issues some friends are battling with.....

4 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

Why worry about mistakes as if we didn't expect them? When we have the word of God?

Yes, exactly,  that was the point I was trying to make in the other thread, when I mentioned the video about 1975.

1 hour ago, Gone Fishing said:

This is just unadulterated Rubbish! It does not matter where it originates!

Unfortunately it originates in the WT magazine January 1 1972 - This evidently is one of the gaffes. I am not sure, but I have a feeling this may have been written or approved by Raymond Franz. @JW Insider may know better. In any case, I have not seen or heard about this since....

3 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

 

That does not mean we are OBLIGATED to be blind, ignorant, and stupid, and not have a clue as to reality the way it really is.

 

So on the basis of that, and having thought the matter thoroughly through, I have decided there is no scriptural basis not to own a cat.

Ours is a cute one year old tabby.

And James, you really must stop visiting those apostate sites. You are not doing yourself any favors.

 

On 11/27/2017 at 9:50 AM, JW Insider said:

The most common point of similarity that people point out is the fact that Jehovah finds the aroma of sacrifice pleasing and so do the Greek gods

Nothing surprising really. I find the aroma of my husband's cooking "sacrifice" very pleasing too!

8 minutes ago, Anna said:

1 hour ago, Gone Fishing said:

Oh dear..but you are right..so many questions....At least I can't see "Are we there yet? in among them..........

Never going to ask that, never!

P.S. Because you know how I feel about the "overlapping generation"! 

1 hour ago, Gone Fishing said:

Oh dear..but you are right..so many questions....At least I can't see "Are we there yet? in among them..........

Never going to ask that, never!

13 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

 

Dear Anna, is it possible that you say "this is not strictly true"??

GB claim that WT JWorg is "the only organization supported by JHVH, "the only true religion". How one religion can be as this if people who are leaders of "Gods organization" are not persons who have Gods guidance to properly interpret Bible and all in Bible?? What is needed for one person to be one who can interpret the Bible? Must be guided, inspired by holy spirit - that is first and last. Even for Bible writers is said that those humans was guided by holy spirit in such simple task as it is writing. How much more spirit, one person would need to have for interpreting and living by interpretations from him alone or from other who gives interpretations.

The whole subject of interpretation is complicated of course. I mean no one on earth can claim they have the perfect, or correct interpretation in every matter that is in the Bible, the GB don't claim that either. But there are certain rules and principles that are quite clear in the Bible and if one does not have any preconceived ideas or an agenda, and lets the Bible speak for itself, then I am sure you will agree that one is that much closer in getting the correct interpretation. I personally believe that the GB's interpretation of core, fundamental Bible teachings is absolutely correct. There are a host of other things (too many to go into here, maybe a new topic could be started on that) that to me prove we are the true religion, despite mistakes and hiccoughs. I also believe the Bible says there is only one true religion. I do not think the GB is inspired, and has to work hard just like any one of us to figure out correct meaning and interpretation, and has to be willing to change their mind with additional proof or information. We can all ask for holy spirit, and we can all be guided by it. If your interpretation of the Bible is different to the GB, then that's fine. And if you don't want to keep it to yourself, start a new religion

On 11/25/2017 at 11:27 PM, Noble Berean said:

The GB don't speak as prophets, and it is clear they often speak and direct with thoughts generated by imperfect, human minds rather than God's mind. They acknowledge that they have erred in their direction throughout the organization's history. So, how can they expect the same level of obedience that Moses received? It doesn't add up in my mind. Besides, it is Jesus who is the greater Moses and not the GB.

I would perhaps say it wasn't as often as opposers make out. Sure, there have been some blunders, which is what inevitably happens on any road of discovery. Same with medicine and science etc. This is why the GB reminded us that they are not inspired. I think the other  reason they mentioned this might have been because some of us truly believed that every Wednesday they received direct messages from God. And still now, some believe they receive some kind of epiphany on a regular basis. This is one reason why I started this topic, because I was wondering if they were alluding to the fact that they will have some kind of vision which will enable them to give these "instructions". Armageddon will be a supernatural war, and the GB will already be in heaven, so my reasoning was along the lines that we too will be saved due to supernatural intervention, rather than some instructions from elders (who will have received a vision?? surely not).

As I already posted in my previous reply to you Br. Jackson's explanation, obedience is based on our (yours and mine) understanding of the scriptures, which you can say are based on the GB's interpretation, but nevertheless are either agreed to, by us, or not.  Mostly we agree with the GB's interpretation and that is why we are in the religion of Jehovah's Witnesses. So I think the level of obedience is based on that. Perhaps to illustrate, when the GB directly or indirectly alluded to something special happening in 1975, that something special being the "end", many friends got excited (understandably) and started doing things which they perhaps would not do otherwise. Some of the things were commendable, like pioneering, so the GB would naturally not discourage that, but to cut all ties with the practical aspects of life, like selling houses and other assets and spending the money in anticipation that they would never need it again was foolish and not based on the scriptures, because as that brother pointed out in the convention video, the Bible never gave a specific time or date, in fact it would come as a thief in the night. So the brother was relying on HIS knowledge of the scriptures (as presented by the GB) and did not get involved in the "hysteria" of that time. Maybe he was already pioneering at the time, but he definitely did not start spending his money as if he was never going to need it again. It even seems that he kind of went "against the grain" of what others may have been telling him to do, I am not sure, I would have to look at that video again....

The GB never bring up things unless there is a specific reason for it. So no doubt there is a lesson for us in that video that they want us to recognize .

19 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

Well I know you probably mean this: "I am not thinking this is a sinister or underhanded way to over assert authority," but when you then say this: "insinuating our prime motive for obedience is to survive Armageddon", to use the word insinuating is a bit confusing to me in view of it's meaning. I definitely do not think the GB are making such an insinuation which would sound remarkably similar to the one made at Job 2:4. And I am sure you do not think that either.

You are right, wrong choice of words. I should have said "it could be misunderstood to mean".....all sorts of things actually. Just too ambiguous. Those kind of statements are exactly the type that cause people to speculate on very "specific" things and then get to having those kind of "narrow minded" ideas you mention. Thankfully the older wise sister put things into proper perspective. Also, it gets people hung up on some kind of specific "announcements" or "revelations". I've seen it, friends discussing this and speculating  on it, especially when there is some significant shift on the world scene....

It raises more questions than it answers, for example:

How will these “new instructions” come from Jehovah, if Jehovah talks to us exclusively through the Bible, and we cannot add anything more to the Bible, and new scrolls won’t be opened till after Armageddon? In other words, instructions that we get now, are either based on the Bible, or on organizational procedures which are based on Bible principles and on common sense. There are no specific instructions on how to survive Armageddon in the Bible (except for the obvious qualifications, to even be considered). So where will these come from?? Instructions we receive now we can check for ourselves in the Bible as per Br. Jackson’s comment "that they be in harmony with the Bible". Are we to believe there will be instructions that we won’t be able to check? How would we be able to decide whether this was "right direction or wrong direction" as per Br. Jackson? Wouldn’t it be more like blind obedience? Is this idea scriptural? In the past, Jehovah’s people had prophets to warn them. Jehovah spoke directly to those prophets. We don’t. We have the Bible right? And the slave that distributes spiritual food. So where will these instructions come from?

19 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

The logistical stuff comes later and I am sure the GB will know how to delegate in this area according to local need.

Won't they be in heaven by then?

19 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

strangeness about those instructions will probably be in comparison to what those who don't trust Jehovah are doing at the time. (Compare 1Cor.1:25: "Because a foolish thing of God is wiser than men"). Wonder what Egyptians would have thought about what the Israelites were doing with sheep's blood on the night of the Passover, (if any were aware)? Ex.12:7.

By behavioural instructions that seem strange, I mean ones based on, for example, Matt 5:29 "Do not resist the one who is wicked, but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other also to him." This is the kind of "strange " instruction that is going to lead to salvation

Good points regarding "strangeness" . What I wonder though is; who in actuality is going to deliver those instructions?

I'm not quite satisfied with the answer... yet. Sorry, my own dear mother said I could flog a horse to death.....

On 11/25/2017 at 11:27 PM, Noble Berean said:

Perhaps I haven't been very clear with my wording on this forum. I don't actually disagree with a Governing Body existing over the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses. That would be like me questioning why each congregation has an elder body. It is clear that the GB fulfills the role of an elder body over the entire congregation on earth.

What I take issue with is the unquestioned obedience that the GB demands. I have yet to receive satisfactory, Scriptural evidence for this view. Is this how the first century apostles perceived themselves? Any questioning by JWs is compared to the fatal murmuring of Korah and his associates, but Moses was a prophet for Jehovah God. When he spoke to the people, it was like God himself spoke. He was granted the authority by Jehovah to lead the Israelites like God. Jehovah made his divine support of Moses clear when he parted the Red Sea and performed many miracles in his name. When Moses spoke to the people with a thought generated by his own imperfect mind rather than God's, Jehovah actually removed his blessing of the Promise Land. The GB don't speak as prophets, and it is clear they often speak and direct with thoughts generated by imperfect, human minds rather than God's mind. They acknowledge that they have erred in their direction throughout the organization's history. So, how can they expect the same level of obedience that Moses received? It doesn't add up in my mind. Besides, it is Jesus who is the greater Moses and not the GB.

Now, you may say that prophets don't exist anymore, so it's unfair to expect prophets in this day and age. That's true. We no longer need prophets, because we have God's complete word in the Bible. I believe that Jesus Christ's leadership is expressed through the Bible. It trumps all human authority. It is the "check" to us all. The Bible stands alone. In my research, I pondered why Jehovah separated the roles of apostles and prophets into two groups in the first century. I have my own theory that Jehovah did so to prevent one  group from gaining too much authority--sort of like the checks and balances in the US government. But the GB acts as those taking the lead and guardians of doctrine. Instead of the Bible "checking" their authority as an independent entity (like an auditor), it has become completely intertwined with the GB. They have stated that they alone have been granted the capacity from God to properly interpret the Bible's message. So, no one else can use the Bible to check them, because they can simply discredit that individual by saying that he/she was not chosen by God to interpret the Bible. Therefore, their interpretation is invalid.

It's like when the gov't does an internal investigation...we roll our eyes. We know that it won't be too critical against itself, but instead create an outcome that is the most favorable. The GB has interpreted the Bible and structured the org in such a way that gives them maximum control and minimum accountability. They essentially play both sides of the fields: God's channel that deserves unquestioned obedience and the imperfect human group that err. Having to be submissive to a GB who play these 2 conflicting roles is very frustrating for me. I don't know how to work with them.

And while I've said a lot, I just want to be clear that I don't want to usurp anyone's authority--especially in God's religion. My questioning is how I make my faith and my ideology firmer. I'm a work-in-progress. I'm not so dogmatic to claim I have all the right answers. My views are evolving, and I appreciate the discussions on here.

I have noticed that as yet, nobody has attempted to answer any of the very valid questions and points you raise. Is this perhaps because there is no foolproof answer? I have heard many times Christendom say that certain unexplained matters are a matter of faith. That is why religion is a faith based organization. While I don't subscribe to the way they use this explanation (because it's more blind faith) we do have to have faith that Jehovah will surely not allow any lasting harm to come to anyone that serves him out of a complete heart.

I for one, appreciate your honesty.  I think we are all a work in progress in one way or another (including the GB). Always learning new things. This is why I posted this particular topic, because it is something that I wondered about, you may not be too bothered about it, you may have something else on your mind. I think most of us, if we are honest, have some topic that we do not see eye to eye. But rarely do we make a public fuss and tend to ride it out, wait on Jehovah and see what happens.

And also as @Gone Fishing pointed out Matthew 25: 34-40 “Then the King will say to those on his right: ‘Come, you who have been blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the founding of the world.   For I became hungry and you gave me something to eat; I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink. I was a stranger and you received me hospitably;   naked and you clothed me. I fell sick and you looked after me. I was in prison and you visited me.’ Then the righteous ones will answer him with the words: ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?When did we see you a stranger and receive you hospitably, or naked and clothe you?  When did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’  In reply the King will say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’"  Jesus tells us that supporting his brothers, which applies to the anointed, so the GB included (and by extension to all of us) is very important. This of course does not mean we will support something we believe is scripturally wrong.  Br. Jackson also  alluded to the fact that it is each individual's responsibility to "make sure" when he made this statement at the ARC, I quote: ": “Now, the Governing Body realises that if we were to give some direction that is not in harmony with God's word, all of Jehovah's Witnesses worldwide who have the Bible would notice that and they would see that it was wrong direction”.  @JW Insider made some good points in his comment regarding producing versus sharing/distributing spiritual food. There is nothing the GB can add to the Bible all we can do is share its message effectively, which can include using Bible aids.

This brings us to the notorious question of interpretation, but by our baptism, didn’t we agree with the interpretation? But also I think it has definitely to do with faith. We had faith that what we were learning was the best interpretation we had heard.  Hebrews ch 11 gives examples of all those who followed Jehovah’s instructions because they had faith "in things not yet seen". Abraham didn't even witness some of the things he was promised.  

On 11/25/2017 at 11:27 PM, Noble Berean said:

They have stated that they alone have been granted the capacity from God to properly interpret the Bible's message.

This is not strictly true according to Br. Jackson:

Q.   And do you see yourselves as Jehovah God's spokespeople on earth?  

Br. Jackson.:  That I think would seem to be quite presumptuous to say that we are the only spokesperson that God is using. The scriptures clearly show that someone can act in harmony with God's spirit in giving comfort and help in the congregations, but if I could just clarify a little, going back to Matthew 24, clearly, Jesus said that in the last days - and Jehovah's Witnesses believe these are the last days - there would be a slave, a group of persons who would have responsibility to care for the spiritual food.  So in that respect, we view ourselves as trying to fulfill that role.

also:

Q.   And the definitive interpretation of the Bible from time to time is the Governing Body; is that right?

 Br. Jackson: Ultimately, as guardians of our doctrine and beliefs, yes, some central group needs to make that decision, but that doesn't mean to say that we are just on our own   uunilaterally making those decisions without research and input from others.

also

Q.   I take it, too, that the state of knowledge about the

scriptures and, in particular, historical knowledge about

scriptures, also improves or increases from time to time?

 Br. Jackson:  That is correct.  But there are some basic things in

 the Bible that have not changed right from the beginnings

 of the Jehovah's Witness religion, and I won't take your

  time, obviously, going through those, but it is important

  to realise what are basic things in the Bible.  For

  example, is the Bible from God?  There is no possibility of

  us changing our viewpoint on that" end of quotes

It is those basic things that I think we can all agree on. They are the backbone of our faith/religion. As for those other things, we may have our opinion, without causing any upset, provided we don't go and harass other people about them or try and make them see it our way.

Sorry, I am going to have to continue this later....

On 11/25/2017 at 1:07 PM, Gone Fishing said:

Then 1Cor 10:31 stands. The concept of  judgement on whether humans are classed figuratively as sheep or goats is drawn from the parable which shows that judgement to be based on how they treat Christs "brothers" (Matt 25:31-46).. So, respect and solidarity for and with anointed Christians, and particularly the Governing Body, is a key component of the favourable judgement.

But if anyone thinks that just standing by an organisational arrangement serves as the sole ticket to Armageddon survival....well..... let me know how that works out, although the "probably" is starting to look a bit "probably won't" from here.

I am looking at a whole range of other scriptural criteria as well, (like Mic 6:8), on this issue, and I am going to continue to be very grateful for the provision of a shepherding arrangement to help and support me in the discerning and applying of those requirements. To me that is the part of the purpose of the congregation as described for example at Eph 4:11-16.

Yes indeed, "united we stand, divided we fall"

And I like this remark you make " I am going to continue to be very grateful for the provision of a shepherding arrangement to help and support me in the discerning and applying of those requirements".

On 11/25/2017 at 1:07 PM, Gone Fishing said:

On that basis I cannot see that encouragement to be obedient to instructions and directions by means of the Christian congregation through these crtical times would be in any way a sinister or underhand scheme to over assert authority, or to somehow direct attention away from our need to have complete dependence on the "one who can destroy both soul and body in Ge·hen?na".

I am not thinking this is a sinister or underhanded way to over assert authority, but rather I am:

1. wondering about the application of the scriptures that were used, using them to show that there will be, without a doubt, special instructions passed on from Jehovah to the Slave, then to the congregations, to preserve us alive.

2. wondering about the logic of such an interpretation. Just yesterday we were asked if our house could be used for a new field service group (as there is a need for another group because of the increase in the congregation) and I reminded the brother (tongue in cheek) that we don't have a basement and does that matter. (For those who don't know the significance of this it's from the idea that service groups will receive instructions for the survival of Armageddon (it used to be Book Study groups) and from the insinuation at the convention video where the (presumably) field service group were hiding in a basement). Then I get to thinking along practical lines. Each group is different, (location, publishers, some old and infirm etc.) and has different circumstances (different countries). Does that mean that "specific instructions" will be passed to each individual group overseers, or slightly more general such as  "those groups that have a basement go and hide in there, those who don't have one get with a group that does, those who don't have access to any basements go and hide in the woods, those that are not near any woods go and hide in the shed etc. etc. even then as one can see it would become ridiculous to give out even generalized instructions because of the infinite number of specific circumstances that exist for each individual all over the world. Or are we thinking each group overseer is going to receive personal divine instruction for their particular group? It all seems just far fetched and unlikely...and on top of that, standing on a somewhat shaky foundation, as another poster reminded us of the 2017 Feb WT where it mentions that the Slave can err....... in organizational direction. Also, when will there be time for the announcement of such instructions to the congregations, especially since the day will come as a thief in the night while we are "in the field, or grinding at the hand mill"?

3. wondering about the manner used, insinuating our prime motive for obedience is to survive Armageddon, rather  "our love for Jehovah and his sovereignty, appreciation for the ransom,  and our desire to please him".

 

On 11/25/2017 at 1:07 PM, Gone Fishing said:

So, I do believe we are kicking into the same goal are we not??.............

I like that. Yes!

4 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

For now 

2 hours ago, Anna said:

Thank you to the other contributors.

@Gone Fishing has presented excellent reasoning, @JW Insider counter reasoning, @TrueTomHarley realized all too soon this might me one of my "rants" that I don't raise anywhere else and that it could be the next topic for a letter to the GB that I never send, @Noble Berean went straight to the heart of the matter. Thankfully this post has been spared JTR's cartoons because maybe he has not discovered it yet, @Nana Fofana hit the bottle, Allen et al resorted to personal attacks and apportioning down votes left right and center.....so nothing new there, and last but not least Srecko with his obviously biased interpretation, and Bar Avaddhon with his complex interpretations and sometimes difficult to understand discourse but that is not his fault, Google translator needs to do a better job.

I don't have time right now, but when I do I would like to reply to individual posters in more detail...

I also meant to mention @Melinda Mills who like me, finds  other poster's comments (not the rude ones) helpful and inspire her to do more research and "reason out a matter" .

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Controversial Posts' carries this caution: 

Only enter this section if you feel strong enough spiritually to defend yourself biblically. As you probably are aware, not everyone on Facebook, Twitter and the Internet is nice and civilized. Some are rather rude. You are hereby forewarned.

To be fair, this topic is not under controversial posts, but under Bible discussion, because that was what I was hoping it was going to be....

Thank you to the other contributors.

@Gone Fishing has presented excellent reasoning, @JW Insider counter reasoning, @TrueTomHarley realized all too soon this might me one of my "rants" that I don't raise anywhere else and that it could be the next topic for a letter to the GB that I never send, @Noble Berean went straight to the heart of the matter. Thankfully this post has been spared JTR's cartoons because maybe he has not discovered it yet, @Nana Fofana hit the bottle, Allen et al resorted to personal attacks and apportioning down votes left right and center.....so nothing new there, and last but not least Srecko with his obviously biased interpretation, and Bar Avaddhon with his complex interpretations and sometimes difficult to understand discourse but that is not his fault, Google translator needs to do a better job.

I don't have time right now, but when I do I would like to reply to individual posters in more detail...

38 minutes ago, Successor said:

For no other reason, there is no discussion!!!!

Most parts in your post were nice, and true, but had actually nothing to do with the discussion...

On 11/25/2017 at 4:28 AM, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

Instead, the Bible explains that the people of God will be gathered (from all over the world) to a specific spot on Earth just before Armageddon. 

This is speculation. As if Jehovah can only save people when they are gathered in a specific spot?

On 11/25/2017 at 4:28 AM, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

Perhaps the instructions to survive Armageddon (perhaps) are already written in the Bible.

They sure are, as far as I can tell.  John 17:3, John 20:31, John 8:12,  Matthew 7:21,  Romans 2:13, James 1:22, 1 John 2:17, 1 John 5:3, Jude 3:3-5, Romans 13:11-13, Heb 10:36,  3John 3,4,  Romans 8:6....etc. etc.

19 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

WOW!

I am sure TTH would be able to find reliable references in support of his "projections", as they are a dime a dozen

6 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

Sometimes after I research things to help others I often understand them better or things become clearer to me as well.

Yes,  agree.

4 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

What kind of spin? The spin you propose? or something else?

No, no, NO! I protest! I did not propose any spin. In fact part of this whole debate is me trying to reason that no spin should be put on it at all.

4 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

then there is no reason to doubt that appropriate guidance will be provided by him regardless of logistical challenges speculated upon at this point in time. We do know the meaning of his name don't we?

Yes, and I don’t doubt it at all. It just irritates me a little when what is speculation, is presented as fact.

4 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

7 hours ago, Anna said:

we will evidently have to rely directly on Jehovah and on miracles he will probably perform at that time.

Isn't that what we are doing now??

I would say yes and no. Many rely on Jehovah through the Slave.  What I was meaning “rely directly” was that this reliance will be between individuals and Jehovah only. We have a tendency to do  ”group saving”   through phrases such as “Jehovah’s people as a whole”  “through the congregation arrangement”  etc.  There is nothing wrong with that at all, and is scriptural of course.  But Jesus indicates that this time it will be a little different. Romans14:12 “So, then, each of us will render an account for himself to God” Rev 22:12 “Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to repay each one according to his work". Matt. 24:41 “Two women will be grinding at the hand mill; one will be taken along and the other abandoned....”.  So I was trying to indicate that concerning Armageddon, speculation on Jehovah  going through specific channels or agents to give us instructions  might be adding to what is not there...in spite of referencing Hebrew scriptures of how it used to be done etc.  As for miracles, I meant the kind of miracles that are not dependent on location or someones activity or that are done on behalf of a group. But the kind of miracle where you are standing in the middle of a war zone by yourself, with bullets flying and bombs going off and you are untouched, Marvel movie style. And then the miracle of actual survival during the aftermath, which I went into already a little.

4 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

7 hours ago, Anna said:

If we are already judged as sheep before Armageddon, would it stand to reason that we would suddenly become disobedient, if we have proved by our life (on the basis of which we were judged) that we were worthy of being judged as sheep by our previous obedience?

Not sure of the purpose of this question in the light of the ancient advice at 1Cor.10:31 "So let the one who thinks he is standing beware that he does not fall." (Not gender specific either).

The purpose of that question was based on this reasoning in par 20.

Therefore, we want to develop heartfelt

obedience to the guidance we are receiving. (1 John 5:3)

If we do so today, we will be more inclined to obey willingly

in the future and thus receive the protection of our Father,

4 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

Do you mean "the faithful slave should have said etc etc etc....."

I mean the paragraph would have been better without speculations and without the "if's", and the implication that we are so shallow as to obey merely to save our lives, without being granted the dignity that our obedience surely has deeper motives, such as our love for Jehovah and his sovereignty, appreciation for the ransom,  and our desire to please him. Therefor we shouldn't need the  "if's" but rather "because" .

Am I making too much of a big deal out of this...?

I think I need @TrueTomHarley to put things into perspective. Because to be honest, all I want to do during Armageddon is hide in the closet and pray like crazy, and afterwards sit on a pile of rubble, hopefully with my loved ones, have crows bring us food and water and just relax for a week or so. Because we will probably all be physically so tired and too emotionally drained and elated at the same time, to even comprehend any instructions blasted at us through a loudspeaker.

.

11 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

It doesn't matter how far you extend my illustration through the stages of a journey (of which "landing safely" is only the first), there will always be some set of protocols to ensure a safe passage.

Exactly, and this is what I tried to explain in the post above, when I said  “We can take this whole survival thing further into the stream of time. Even after being judged as sheep, and after entering the new world, our survival will always depend on obeying Jehovah’s instructions, since we will always be dependent on him to stay alive”.

11 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

There will be no "faithful and discreet slave" as we know it once these expected events have taken place. But there will be an arrangement to continue "the journey" safely, under Jehovah's direction. Ez.45:7.

So do I think that being reminded that obedience to Jehovah's instructions through congregational arrangements is a way that the Governing Body is saying “you better obey the Slave NOW, or you’re gonna die later.”, "like some kind of soft threat you make to a child"?

You could probably spin any kind of instruction Jehovah gives through an agency in that manner

Yes indeed, and it has apparently already been spun a certain way, according to those two paragraphs.

However, thinking about it logically does that kind of a spin make sense?  I see several problems with it. If we are obedient to the Slave now, we will be judged as sheep obviously, and if we are obedient now, it follows we will be obedient during Armageddon, as per the reasoning in par. 20.  So this is a closed circle, since one naturally leads to the other. Therefore on that basis, what is actually the point of those two paragraphs? And what is to say we are at liberty to apply Jehovah's saving arrangements in the past to what he will do in the future?

Because how can it be categorically said that there will be instructions given to us through some centralized body or agent? Or even congregation overseers? Am I to imagine elder John is going to receive a vision which he will then relay to the rest of the little group?

To go into even more detail, it was different  with the Israelites for example, coming out of Egypt, following Moses. This kind of a scenario will obviously be impossible during Armageddon, although similar scenes are depicted in our literature. However, if you think about it, something like that is not even remotely possible because:

How could we be organized into one large group when we are so scattered? Although we are one nation symbolically we are not one nation physically. The next congregation from us is 10 miles away, and even if we were grouped according to circuits, we might have a couple of thousand, with the next couple of thousand in the next city, miles away. On top of that, how are we going to travel with no fuel, (and with the frail and infirm) since there will be no one to operate the stations, and no electricity to pump the fuel out as there will be no one operating the generators, and no one supplying the fuel as there will be no drivers and there will be no pilots to operate planes, no captains to operate ships, and no one to operate the oil rigs.  How are we going to get any messages forwarded across miles and miles of land and sea? This is a very complex modern infrastructure we live in at the present time, and it is wholly reliant on workers, who will be dead. And on top of these obvious logistical and communicational problems, there will be masses of rotting corpses, poisoning the water and air, to contend with. What are we going to be drinking and eating while we are figuring this out? I am sure we can all think of so much more. So what I am trying to say is that it goes without saying we will evidently have to rely directly on Jehovah and on miracles he will probably perform at that time. It stands to reason we will all be direct witnesses of these miracles, and will experience them personally, without them going through some human centralized group, or agents.

11 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

or now, I prefer the statement made by (even) a demon-possessed woman when she stated of Paul and others preaching the good news, "“These men are slaves of the Most High God and are proclaiming to you the way of salvation" Acts 16:17.

If we are already judged as sheep before Armageddon, would it stand to reason that we would suddenly become disobedient, if we have proved by our life (on the basis of which we were judged) that we were worthy of being judged as sheep by our previous obedience?  It doesn’t make logical sense we would suddenly see the need to not follow instructions, especially after we have obviously been following instructions to get to where we are that point (judged as sheep) and especially when we had just witnessed the supernatural manifestations of the last prophesy being  fulfilled.  If we are honest, are many of us not already psyched up and eagerly waiting for some “special pronouncement” by the slave, so much so that most of us would be willing to move to Timbuktu at the drop of a hat, if those were the instructions given to us by them? And are we not sitting on the edge of our seats in anticipation and hint of any significant turn of events on the world scene any moment?

Wouldn’t it have been much simpler to say something along the lines of: “How will Jehovah preserve alive those who have been judged as sheep during Armageddon? We will have to wait and see. One thing we can be sure of is that Jehovah knows how to deliver people of Godly devotion. At that time all of us will most likely experience supernatural manifestations on our behalf, and we will want to put our full trust in Jehovah’s protective and life giving powers. Of course it won’t end there, as we will continue to do so after the dust of Armageddon has settled, and in to the distant future"......etc.

So I am still trying to figure out the motive behind those two paragraphs....

11 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

Zephaniah 8:23: “This is what Jehovah of armies says, ‘In those days ten men out of all the languages of the nations will take hold, yes, they will take firm hold of the robe of a Jew, saying: “We want to go with you, for we have heard that God is with you people.”’”

This is the scripture I always go to, to explain why it's reasonable to expect that God has an organized and a united people on earth today.

On 11/20/2017 at 5:03 PM, Matthew9969 said:

1 Corinthians 15, 42-5

42 ^fSo is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. 43 It is sown in dishonor; ^git is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 Thus it is written, ^h“The first man Adam became a living being”;^{5 i}the last Adam became a ^jlife-giving spirit. 46 But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. 47 ^kThe first man was from the earth, ^la man of dust; ^mthe second man is from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, ⁿso also are those who are of heaven. 49 Just ^oas we have borne the image of the man of dust, ^pwe shall⁶ also bear the image of the man of heaven.

Mystery and Victory

50 I tell you this, brothers: ^qflesh and blood ^rcannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. ^sWe shall not all sleep, ^tbut we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For ^uthe trumpet will sound, and ^vthe dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and ^wthis mortal body must put on immortality.

 

What are your thoughts on this great scriptures?

Talking about the anointed......that they will become spirit creatures when in heaven.

@Gone Fishing

We can take this whole survival thing further into the stream of time. Even after being judged as sheep, and after entering the new world, our survival will always depend on obeying Jehovah’s instructions, since we will always be dependent on him to stay alive. Still, I don’t think that warrants us thinking that there will be some kind of “special logistical” instructions at Armageddon, as if Jehovah needs us in one particular place, or do some particular thing in order to be able to save us. Or in order for us to prove we are worthy of salvation. Like one more test on top of a test. And especially not when the reason for that is used to “encourage” us to be obedient now.....  

Just my thoughts

2 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

Bit like saying " Well, you're on the right plane, we're taking off in a minute, but there are some safety instructions I need to give you as we are expecting some disturbance on the flight. Don't be too concerned, we've never lost a passenger yet who followed the instructions to the letter. Here they are, please pay attention..

Assuming that landing safely is the ultimate goal, that illustration is good, except what I think the Bible (Jehovah) is saying is; " Well, you're on the right plane, we're taking off in a minute, but there are some safety instructions I need to give you as we are expecting some disturbance on the flight. If you follow them,  you will land safely". And what the Slave seems to be adding is; "So when you have landed safely and arrived at the gate,  there will be additional instructions because without those you will not be able to make it into the building".

1 hour ago, Gone Fishing said:

Is all this discussion about this little piece of advice in paragraph 20 of Chapter 21 of the Kingdom Rule Book?

Yes, including paragraph 19. But I think the thread might have digressed a little by now.

1 hour ago, Gone Fishing said:

Let's turn it around. "Do not follow any instructions given through the congregation, particularly those coming from the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses, regarding any action that needs to be taken through the coming cataclysmic events that will accompany the end of the current system of things."

Let me know how you get on.

I think you might have misunderstood. I have no issue with following  instructions per se. None at all actually. What I am wondering about is the reasoning in par. 19 and 20 in relation to this. There are two questions that came to mind as we were studying the lesson at the midweek meeting (actually a week ago since I read on ahead last week). I already posted my line of thought in several posts above and you might have missed it, so I will just rearrange and copy and paste some of it here:

In those two paragraphs I was wondering if we might be going beyond what is written by going beyond the application intended for the scriptures that were cited: (Isaiah 25:20 and 30:21, 1John 5:3,  Zephaniah 2:3)( saying that "our survival of coming events will depend on our obedience to Jehovah’s instructions" and  "Therefore, we want to develop heartfelt obedience to the guidance we are receiving. (1 John 5:3) If we do so today, we will be more inclined to obey willingly in the future and thus receive the protection of our Father, Jehovah, and our King, Jesus") It makes me wonder, was this written for the purpose of reaffirming the Slave's God given authority over the flock at the present time?

Otherwise it doesn't seem to make sense to me that after those who are judged as sheep, and marked for survival then their survival (of coming events) will depend on their obedience to Jehovah’s instructions. I don't see anywhere in the scriptures where Jesus teaches this idea with regard to the final judgement. In fact I see the opposite "Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken along and the other abandoned. Two women will be grinding at the hand mill; one will be taken along and the other abandoned".

To me, it sounds awfully like some kind of soft threat you make to a child. What I hear when I read those two paragraphs is: “you better obey the Slave NOW, or you’re gonna die later.” And I am thinking, do we really need that? Are we presumed so shallow as to obey merely to save our hides? Or shouldn’t we be granted the dignity that our obedience surely has deeper motives than that?