Anna

7 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

Do you think it's at all possible that Jesus could communicate with the anointed directly? And not rely on a centralized GB? If that were the case, would that be acceptable to those taking the lead? 

Sorry, I know this question wasn't to me, but I find it interesting. As far as I am aware, Jesus doesn't communicate with the anointed (any anointed) directly. I believe all the communication is there for anybody to access, because it's the Bible. Yes, holy spirit is needed to help us understand the scriptures, but anyone can ask for holy spirit for that purpose. The only time in my opinion when there is any direct communication, is at the point when the person receives the heavenly calling. It used to be thought that the anointed would regularly receive some kind of divine flashes of inspiration or insight, but there is no evidence that the anointed, including the GB think that now. It seems that all true Christians have equal access to the Bible, prayer and holy spirit. 

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

When Trump tweets that North Korea has launched all its missills, people of heart will run to take cover. People of critical thought will run to their computers to point out that the idiot can't even spell the word right.

funny but true!

10 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

Like I said, I believe the anointed will play a vital role in the future.

I am assuming you mean while still on earth since in heaven they will definitely play a vital role . All the anointed I have ever known (and I have known quite a few) have been very humble people, never ones who pushed ahead and asserted themselves in any way. I cannot imagine that they would suddenly become something they are not. True, I don't now what kind of role you had in mind, and if this role would require some kind of miraculous intervention, since there are many congregations with not a single anointed person in them.

2 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

Is it direct from Christ or from a body of men acting as representatives for him? This isn't meant as an attack on the GB, but I just wanted some clarification on this matter. Because in the first century, Jesus Christ was able to direct Saul/Paul directly to preach on his behalf. He didn't go through a centralized body to see that work done.

You will probably admit that it would be very difficult to accomplish what we have accomplished globally without having a centralized body. I personally see nothing wrong, or even unscriptural about it. Even with regard to keeping a uniform doctrine. 

Here are two articles from the same WT that go into detail of why this idea is reasonable:

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/w20130715/jesus-feeds-many/

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/w20130715/who-is-faithful-discreet-slave/

2 hours ago, Anna said:

are we perhaps going beyond what is written

by going beyond the application intended,  (Isaiah 25:20 and 30:21, 1John 5:3,  Zephaniah 2:3 as cited in the two paragraphs) claiming that "our survival of coming events will depend on our obedience to Jehovah’s instructions" and  "Therefore, we want to develop heartfelt obedience to the guidance we are receiving. (1 John 5:3) If we do so today, we will be more inclined to obey willingly in the future and thus receive the protection of our Father, Jehovah, and our King, Jesus" for the purpose of the Slave reaffirming God given authority over the flock at the present time?

To me, it sounds awfully like some kind of soft threat you make to a child. What I hear when I read those two paragraphs in the “God’s Kingdom book”  is: “you better obey the Slave NOW or you’re gonna die!” And I am thinking, do we really need that? Are we presumed so shallow as to obey merely to save our hides? Or shouldn’t we be granted the dignity that our obedience surely has deeper motives than that?

There, I’ve said it in a nutshell.

For the sake of this discussion I see the need to separate for a moment organizational procedures and spiritual matters, (although many times they are intertwined obviously). We understand organizational procedures to involve things like congregational protocol, certain policies on handling various matters etc. etc.

Spiritual things or doctrinal matters on the other hand are those that we learn when we study the Bible, meditate on, and put into practice what we learn in our lives. This must be what Jesus had in mind when he makes all those references to salvation.

Organizational matters are important for obvious reasons, and cooperation with those taking the lead in these matters is obviously important too.

However, when it comes to actual salvation on that day, are we perhaps going beyond what is written if we attach importance to a location, i.e. where we find ourselves physically, when it seems clear from the scriptures that it is our spiritual state that will decide the outcome for an individual at Armageddon?

Further to the topic above, this WT talks about Jehovah's Valley of protection.

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/w20130215/jehovahs-valley-of-protection/

"How vital it will be during the great tribulation to maintain our faith in Jehovah’s saving power and to remain in Jehovah’s valley of protection"!

" Under Jehovah’s protection, we will survive the end of this wicked system of things and enter into God’s righteous new world. Though we are objects of hatred by all the nations, let us be resolved to remain loyal subjects of God’s Kingdom, ever determined to stay in Jehovah’s valley of protection".

34 minutes ago, AllenSmith said:

The posted question has one simple take. OBEY GOD'S WILL, and stay away from people that oppose his message, when its sent through those that God has commissioned. 1 Corinthians 15:33

Just like people think the GB is overreaching with scripture, So are they with apostasy!!!

 

There you go again with your apostates, lol. I'm sure it must be your favorite word.

6 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

From what little I understood (little: I used the translator) would not it have been enough that they had faith in Jehovah?
Since Jehovah is Almighty and can protect His people in any circumstance, Christians of the first century could also decide not to leave Jerusalem, no?

Good point. I wonder why this wasn't used as an example rather than Isaiah? I guess because we apply it to getting out of false religion and keep ourselves without spot from the world. But my main dispute really is that this is being used in a kind of foreboding way as a reason everyone should be obedient and cooperate with the Slave now.

15 hours ago, JW Insider said:

There is no direct statement in the publications that we must "hide." You have included some bigger questions about timing and survival and obedience, and those are worth discussing. However, the logic of the two paragraphs indicates nothing about "hiding" in any modern-day fulfillment of Isaiah 26:20. The point was only that, in this past example, survival depended on obedience to "commands" and the same will be true in the near future.

Thank you. I wrote this late last night, and knew it wasn't really what I wanted to say. I wanted to talk about the "timing and survival and obedience"  I should have waited till my brain was in gear properly. Although the Slave has insinuated "hiding"  in the convention video, I understand that it was not meant specifically, as we really don't know. So I wanted the whole point of my post to be about the necessity to obey some additional command in order to survive, when already judged as sheep. I was wanting to reason on the fact that what would happen if as a sheep, you happen not to obey this specific command whatever it will be, "especially when it might seem illogical from a human point of view". Is it insinuating a kind of "Final Test" of loyalty? But does that make sense if already judged as sheep and marked for survival and is the concept of this kind of "Final Test" even scriptural? Are we not to be "found finally by him spotless and unblemished and in peace" without some additional requirement?

Why this additional need to prove our loyalty to God, by obeying the Slave to survive Armageddon, and why is the Slave using this as a reason to obey them now. Today, shouldn't we want to be cooperative with organizational arrangements  because it creates order and because we believe it is the right thing to do? Why does the Slave have to preface paragraph 20 in the book with the kind of sentiments in paragraph 19?

I will go and edit the title of the topic and and make some changes to the original post so that it reflects more of what I actually meant

Has anyone wondered about this?

God’s Kingdom Rules! Page 230, par.19 & 20  says:

How to Prepare Ourselves

19  How can we prepare ourselves for the earthshaking

events that are to come? The Watchtower stated some years

ago: “Survival will depend on obedience.” Why is that so?

The answer is found in a warning from Jehovah to the captive

Jews living in ancient Babylon. Jehovah foretold that

Babylon would be conquered, but what were God’s people

to do to prepare themselves for that event? Jehovah stated:

“Go, my people, enter your inner rooms, and shut your

doors behind you. Hide yourself for a brief moment until

the wrath has passed by.” (Isa. 26:20) Note the verbs in this

verse: “go,” “enter,” “shut,” “hide”—all are in the imperative

mood; they are commands. The Jews who heeded those

commands would have stayed in their houses, away from

the conquering soldiers out in the streets. Hence, their survival

depended on obeying Jehovah’s instructions.[2]

20  What is the lesson for us? As in the case of those ancient

servants of God, our survival of coming events will

depend on our obedience to Jehovah’s instructions. (Isa.

30:21) Such instructions come to us through the congregation

arrangement. Therefore, we want to develop heartfelt

obedience to the guidance we are receiving. (1 John 5:3)

If we do so today, we will be more inclined to obey willingly

in the future and thus receive the protection of our Father,

Jehovah, and our King, Jesus. (Zeph. 2:3) That divine

protection will allow us to witness firsthand how God’s

Kingdom will completely remove its enemies. What an unforgettable

event that will be!

Prior to those paragraphs, and in harmony with Matthew 24, it was made clear that the sheep and the goats will have already been judged, the sheep being marked for survival. Why would there be further need to follow some other instructions in order to survive? Matthew 24 does not indicate anything about additional instructions as a criterion for survival. In fact it says “then two men will be in the field; one will be taken along and the other abandoned.  Two women will be grinding at the hand mill; one will be taken along and the other abandoned.” This indicates that people will be in ordinary situations, when they are “saved”. The rest of the gospels focus on doing God’s will and following in Christ’s footsteps as the criterion for gaining salvation. "For this is what the love of God means, that we observe his commandments; and yet his commandments are not burdensome" 1John 5:3. None of the Greek scriptures talk about any special instructions that will have to be obeyed during the great tribulation and Armageddon.  It is only Isaiah that mentions this in relation to surviving the overthrow of Babylon, with similar references to the Passover in Egypt and perhaps also Noah entering the Ark.

I wonder why the Slave thinks that the same pattern will be followed when the ultimate destruction comes, as if Jehovah is not capable of saving individuals wherever they may be. Looking at it from a practical point of view, not everyone will be physically able to “go” or “shut” or “hide”. Think of the old and infirm.  The scripture in Zepheniah 2:3 talks about doing specific things well before  the day of Jehovah's anger. “Seek Jehovah, all you meek ones of the earth, Who observe his righteous decrees, seek righteousness, seek meekness. Probably you will be concealed on the day of Jehovah’s anger”.

The paragraph that follows,  (Par. 20) talks about us learning to obey the Slave now, so that when the time comes we will “obey” the Slave then, because our salvation depends on it.  But the scriptures clearly show our salvation depends on lots of other things, one of them being enduring faithfully to the end.  This was the symposium at this year’s Do not Give up convention as well. This included practical steps to “Run With Endurance”

·         Run to Win! (1 Corinthians 9:24)

·         Train Diligently (1 Corinthians 9:25-27)

·         Let Go of Unnecessary Burdens (Hebrews 12:1)

·         Imitate Good Examples (Hebrews 12:2, 3)

·         Eat Nutritious Food (Hebrews 5:12-14)

·         Drink Plenty of Water (Revelation 22:17)

·         Obey the Rules of the Contest (2 Timothy 2:5)

·         Be Confident of Gaining the Prize (Romans 15:13)

That pertains to everything we do now. And those are the things we will be judged on. That’s how we prepare ourselves surely? Not by obeying some last minute instructions as if Jehovah is not capable of saving each individual Witness wherever they may be, since the whole performance is going to involve supernatural powers anyway....Plus, it has been speculated that some may die at Armageddon, not by Jehovah's hand, but by other extenuating circumstances, even by being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I will do some more research on this....

13 hours ago, Arauna said:

I knew of one handsome young man who was in love with a worldly girl at school and for some reason became depressed.  He impulsively committed suicide and ruined his poor mothers life.

He probably became depressed because he couldn't have her. When they are that young, romantic love is so overwhelming that you are willing to die if you can't have that person. It's an age old story, older than Romeo & Juliette.  If he was older, he might have been able to reason it out a little bit more rationally, and perhaps even do it his own way. It is tragic. I feel so sorry for his mother

1 minute ago, Srecko Sostar said:

I am glad that you put this as honored member of JW community here. If I have had done this i would received some comments how i twisted words :))))))))))) and have bad motives, ahahhaa. 

Well (this has become one of my favorite quotes lately) the truth is truth no matter who says it

This information is publicly available from court transcripts and records:

The $4000/day sanctions refer to Osbaldo Padron/Gonzalo Campos trial where Irwin Zalkin is seeking documents in order to build his case against WT.

The perpetrator, Gonzalo Campos, (baptized in 1980, appointed a ministerial servant in 1988,  elder in 1993 and serving as  a pioneer for several years) allegedly molested at least 8 known children in various congregations between 1982 and 1995. In 2010 he fled to Mexico.

6 of these cases against WT were settled out of court. The 7th case was the victim Jose Lopez, who was awarded 13.5 million by the WT, and the last, 8th case, is the victim Osbaldo Padron.

Zalkin is seeking proof that WT was aware of Campo’s first child molestation (or the allegation thereof) and that despite this knowledge, Campos managed to molest at least 7 more victims in several congregations.  WT allegedly was told of the first case of molestation in 1982, by the victim, and made a record of it. This is one of the records Zalkin wants.

Further, the key to the Padron/Campos investigation is a letter that was sent to the body of elders in 1997 based on the 1991 Kingdom Ministry Question box which states:

 "When a publisher moves to another area, what should be done to assist in the transfer to a new congregation?

As soon as a publisher arrives from another congregation, the congregation secretary should obtain from the publisher the name of his former congregation and the name and address of the secretary of that congregation. He should then write to the secretary of the former congregation, requesting the Congregation’s Publisher Record card and a letter of introduction. The secretary receiving this request should respond without delay.—See Organized to Accomplish Our Ministry, pages 104-5. etc......."

 According to Zalkin, those “transfer” or “introduction” letters with regard to Gonzalo Campos would prove that WT knew about Gonzalo Campo’s previous molestations.

It is those transfer/introduction letters that are costing us $4000/day.

If I am not mistaken, Zalkin is asking for every transfer/introduction letter the elders have ever written in every congregation since 1982

WT did apparently oblige, and did make available some letters, however they were apparently so heavily redacted, that they were of no use. (the names of perpetrators, congregations, as well as the addresses and contact information of the congregation, towns where abuse occurred, and law enforcement agencies that investigated claims were all redacted).

The court is not expecting to know the names of the elders handling the cases, nor the names of the victims.

1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

https://philbarbey.jimdo.com/jws-rolf-furuli/

 

 

Rolf Furuli?

5 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Help me out on a call.

A sister placed magazines with a college kid, conversed a while, and he said she could call back. His father, however, would not likely be welcoming, he said.

She gave the call to me. I made it. He was not home. His father was, and the son had been right. The father was not welcoming. Neither did he tell me to get lost. Well – he did, but it was not in the ordering sort of tone, and I said I had not been looking for him anyway, but his son. He was the family head, and I told him I would not try to sneak around him, but did he mind if I called again on his son? The kid was smart, I told the old man, and that must mean his parents are smart. He said his son was his own person, and if he wanted to speak with me again, that was up to him.

I called again. The son, of course, was not home. The unwelcoming dad was. He was in a wheelchair, as he had been the first time. One bumper sticker on the family car read “Born right the first time.” The other said: “There are death squads in America; they’re called insurance companies.” I think we overdo our advice to take cues from bumper stickers, but this time the Ten Commandments could not have told me more. All that remains is to fill in a few blanks.

Sometimes I open with Job 34:10 – “it is unthinkable for the true God to act wickedly.” I like the verse, I told him, because some people think he does act wickedly. And some see all the nasty things going down and say: “I don’t think there is a true God.” It plays into the theme of why there is suffering, I told the fellow.

He wasn’t nice. I made clear that the instant he told me to go away, I would. We were conversing through the storm door, which added a measure of challenge. I almost reached to open it, for it was awkward for him to do so, but I decided it would be a bit much. He laughed derisively at my Bible verse. “You’re here because you want to tell me about suffering?” he shot back from his wheelchair. I answered: “No. I want you to tell me. I don’t have to talk at all. I want you to invite me in and tell me.”

I said: “Look – everyone has a story, but no one wants to hear it. So I will,. I've got the time.” He’ll never see me again anyway – what does he have to lose? I told him. He answered sarcastically that he could never get over the Christians’ “need” to “save” people. Look, he said, he was one of the 5% who are atheist. “Yeah – I’m here to change that,” I answered. This is far more blunt than I would ever be ordinarily, but I decided I would answer him in kind. It was not even true, really, or at least it was not a goal I realistically held. I also told him that he was right – we are Christian, and it is a bit much that we should appear out of thin air, but that Jehovah’s Witnesses are in a league of their own.

He responded by saying his number one man from his working days had been a Witness, and that he had been the nicest, most reliable fellow in the world. “Yeah, we’re all nice,” I said. “You think I’m nice? Wait to you get a load of Kurt,” I motioned to the brother behind me, who could barely make out through the door what the man was saying. His praise for the brother he once supervised at work didn’t yield me as much ground as might be expected. After two or three more minutes maneuvering, I told him that while I would like to know more, one can only go far, and we would take our leave. He didn’t cry over the prospect, but had never taken the bait of saying I should go.

I am not sure what to do. I will let it go, probably. One more call in a few months to see if anything has moved, and then I am done. Maybe before, but I have no plans at the present. Any advice?

Sounds like you handled it splendidly. I particularly liked this part: " “Yeah – I’m here to change that,”

I find with calls similar to this patience is the key. I don't mean by beating around the bush and taking forever to get to the point, but by building a rapport and getting to know the guy. He's obviously bitter. Reminds me of Stephen Hawking, Dr. of applied mathematics and theoretical physics, specializing in general relativity and cosmology. With his knowledge you know he should believe in a creator, but he fights it and denies there is a God because....well...for obvious reasons.

I wish I had more time to think about this but maybe tomorrow....

Why are our fonts blue? Or is it my eyes?

58 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Sir Isaac Newton,

He was pretty amazing, I agree.

Can't we have  JW

10 minutes ago, Noble Berean said:

Of course it means something. Where did I suggest otherwise? I know our WT literature makes it clear that sexual abuse is abhorrent. Those articles are referring to proactive ways to prevent abuse, but I'm referring to what procedures take place after an event has occurred.

The crux of the problem is that our policies were always more preventive focused and proactive as you say, and less cure focused.  We naively assumed that if we educate the friends on how to avoid child sexual abuse in the first palace, then all will be solved, there will be no victims. That was the ideal situation of course, but was however not taking into account the fact that not everyone was going to, or even capable of applying this advice.

I am trying to  be fair and I have no problem admitting we’ve had to eat humble pie because we thought our child protection was the best, because it focused on prevention. Indeed what’s better than that? In theory it was very good, and that’s because it was assuming that every parent and child applied all that advice that was put out there. But of course in practice this wasn’t the case, and so these preventative measures did not always achieve their goal because they were not always applied. So now, we have to revise the preventive idea and supplement it with getting justice for those for who it is too late, the victims, making disclosure as comfortable as possible, and ensuring punishment for those who committed the crime including limiting access to congregants.  And that all is a whole different ball game, but I trust we are doing our best because we do not want any of our children to suffer.

3 minutes ago, Noble Berean said:

information on how elders handle sexual abuse allegations in the congregation.

Like I said, this is available, or something similar, if you ask for it Child-Safeguarding-Policy-January-2017.pdf

Just now, Noble Berean said:

That's info about ways to keep safe,

Does that amount to nothing then?

@Noble Berean all the policies we have on our website thus far are THESE.  But I have a feeling that's not what you meant. Did you want to see some kind of "confession"? Like the number of pedophiles or sexual predators there are among Jehovah's Witnesses?

23 minutes ago, Noble Berean said:

Please do. It would really be great if I could just go on JW.org and they had a section on their website about their policies on sexual abuse in the congregation. 

Maybe it will be there eventually. But for now it is available to anyone who asks for it. Go ask ask your elders for the new guidelines publication on sexual abuse.

Just now, Noble Berean said:

How so? 

 Evident from G. Jackson testimony, new guidelines etc.

When I have more time I will give you actual references.