Anna

52 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

I think this is his most complete work on chronology and it's excellent and comprehensive but it "demolishes" any chance that he could have believed 607 was the date for destruction of Jerusalem, at least at the time he wrote the paper.

Ha!

As you saw in the video, he and Furuli contradicted each other several times.....

45 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

@Anna, BTW, I only commented up until near the first half of this. There are things in the second half I found to be just as bad. But I didn't want to spoil anyone else's chance to comment first.

That's ok, because I only watched half of it! lol (Don't tell True Tom though)

I will watch the other half and see what I find...

1 hour ago, Noble Berean said:

The issue is that the GB has total, unchallenged control over scriptural interpretation.

Well, the answer to that I guess is if you don't agree with their scriptural interpretation you go and find a religion that you agree with. So really, the ball is still in your court. You don't have to believe anything they say. But I know what you mean. However, how would that work in a practical way....that kind of doctrinal democracy?

38 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

In the meantime, one might consider a missed date as the time you swung a hammer and missed the nail. And the dates all around as the frustrated swings you took thereafter, also missing each time.

We've got to remember though that we are not swinging the hammer, that's left up to the Slave. All the dates we've ever had were put out there by the Slave. We just either agree with the dates or not...

20 minutes ago, Gone Fishing said:

What do you think those who actually did this are now thinking?

Or did you mean those who had a career and did the truth as well, what are they now thinking? Well, maybe something similar to the friends who did not go and sell all their possessions and spent their life savings in anticipation of the end in 1975?

10 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Cat got your tongue?

That would be the day! No, for some reason when you accidentally tap quote, instead of edit you can't remove it, so you have to leave it there, blank.

8 minutes ago, Gone Fishing said:

What do you think those who actually did this are now thinking??

I don't know....they are probably not thinking about it much since they are long gone and deep into this system of things and its reasoning.

8 minutes ago, Gone Fishing said:

And do you think there are any who actually managed to do  this while they were (quote @Anna) "waiting, and waiting, ....and waiting for the paradise" without wasting their lives?

I believe some did manage to juggle both and quite successfully. But not everyone is capable of that. After all, we know we cannot serve two masters.... But I was talking about those who begrudge the fact that THEY, in their eyes, made a "bad" decision and blame the Society/the truth/slave etc. for it

2 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

I fully expect an update in 2021, when we'll have 2020 hindsight.

Good one JWI !

3 minutes ago, Anna said:

 

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Anna, it is possible that i missed a point, or not understand quite clear, in this sentence. Would you simplified it for me, please, in some other words.

Selfish things (what selfish things?) and - who done selfish things? Disappointed people? Or people who are not disappointed and stay in WT org?  

Some are disappointed  because they have been waiting, and waiting, ....and waiting for the paradise, and now they feel they have wasted their life, because they think they could have got an excellent education, made lots of money, and had a good time, instead of devoting their life to teaching others about God's Kingdom and denying themselves the "good" things the world had to offer.  I am  sorry for not making it  clear.

So my question was, what could have made them disappointed? It was not being able to do those things I mentioned, which are selfish things. On the other hand,  ones who gave their life in pursuit of doing God's will unselfishly, have not regretted anything.....and they are still waiting, and will wait for however long it takes.

4 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

But a scenario just as likely is that they are smarter than me and are able to do both without breaking a sweat.

I know what you mean. I mean, I feel the same way about me, lol

16 hours ago, SuziQ1513 said:

 Just a friendly correction to the above statement.  Nehemiah Gordon is indeed a Karaite Jew (Kara means scripture) but not a Rabbi. 

Thank you Suzi! I was actually wondering about that. My bad, I misinterpreted what I read in Wikipedia about him. He was born to Jewish family of rabbis. Which of course doesn't mean he is a rabbi himself, and it didn't make sense after I read what the Karaites stand for. That they do not believe in the Oral Torah like the rabbis do.

16 hours ago, SuziQ1513 said:

have learned quite a lot from him and have read his book:

I will have to try and get a hold of it, sounds very interesting. A while ago I was also looking at a website, and I wish I could remember what they were called, I don't think they were karaites, but maybe some other Jewish "sect" who are anti Zionists, in that they believe Christ will rule from Jerusalem, but not thanks to any human political events and human intervention of the return of the Jews to Jerusalem, but only through the literal coming of the Messiah and through God's intervention, not human. Sort of similar to what we believe except for the physical presence aspect. They feel that when he does come, they will be able to identify him, through genealogical records (this was a debate I wanted to have with one of the Rabbis, since all those records no longer exist, but didn't get around to it). Anyway, that was a bit beside the point, just interesting.....Interesting to note that so many Religions (Christendom and Judaism) have grains of Biblical truth, just all muddled up and inconsistent.....

17 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

31 minutes ago, Anna said:

And have you watched the video yet?

Well, no. But I'll get to it.

That's good. I'm interested in how you understand it, since we already have several people's take on it. Of course you need to be fair and unbiased, and there is no need to be diplomatic and defensive, since this is not from the society. Not officially anyway.

14 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

18 hours ago, Anna said:

it's only weeding out those who are disappointed over selfish things,

No Anna, i disagree with this final conclusion you had made on people. 

Then why do you believe they are disappointed?

Ok Ok, you can stop now with these likes @TrueTomHarley They're clogging up my notifications. Yep, us women never seem to be satisfied

10 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

If saluting the flag is a form of idolatry, surely 'liking' the comment of an apostate is a form of association.

But then so is reading the comment in the first place

4 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

There! It was a like. A real genuine grade A honest-to-goodness like. Don't ever say it wasn't.

See, there you go again, always weaseling your way out! Because that like doesn't count.And have you watched the video yet?

9 hours ago, JW Insider said:

But it was "Pastor Russell's" own journal "The Bible Students Monthly" that included the following, in 1915, while Russell was still alive. I'll include the entire portion, although it was not the only contribution of its type found in issues of the Bible Students Monthly.

http://www.heraldmag.org/olb/contents/history/st paul defences.htm

How Pastor Russell Ranks in Greatness 

Dr. Jackson Analyzes Elements That Constitute True Greatness of the Man

 

A LEADER IN MANY LINES

 

His Temperament Poetic, Literary, Scientific, Analytical and Strong for Business

 

The world seldom recognizes its great men. Few or none saw the magnificent greatness of Lincoln until after his death. To the prominent and learned of the Roman Empire, Saint Paul was only an insignificant Jew; but we can see that in all that constituted real greatness he towered above them all, like a giant among pigmies. So it is today. If you ask "the man on the street," who are the great men of today, he is not likely to name Charles Taze Russell first, but let us see:

 

C. T. Russell commenced business for himself while yet a boy and with very little capital. When he was eighteen he owned a store, when he was twenty-four he owned five stores and was worth three hundred thousand dollars, and this at an age when John D. Rockefeller had hardly made a start, and J. P. Morgan, with his inherited capital, had but little. If C. T. Russell had devoted his life to business it is easy to guess that John D. would not now be the richest man in the world nor J. P. Morgan have been the prince of financiers.

 

However, that is the least remarkable thing about the career of Pastor Russell. With all this phenomenal talent for business he gave it all up and surrendered the most brilliant opening for obtaining wealth and power that has ever been offered to an American in order to take up a humble religious work. Such a thing as a man with surpassing wealth-getting power, voluntarily giving it up was unknown before in all history. He made no mistake, for the Master said, "Whosoever would become great among you shall be your servant." With an insight into the higher things that enabled him to choose aright, he saw from the Scriptures that the time had come for the greatest work of the ages to be done, and as he was the right man for the place, the Lord chose him to be his servant to lead the visible earthly part of this work, namely, the harvest work of the end of the Gospel Age.

 

In the case of the Apostle Paul the Lord chose a man of great business ability to do his work then, but in this "End of the Age," when business is on a scale a thousand fold greater than in Paul’s day, business talent is all the more necessary, and so the man chosen for His work today is a Napoleon of finance and business.

 

History shows that other men great in business and finance have not been richly endowed in other departments of the mind, but Pastor Russell in addition to his financial talent has remarkable mental talents of the most varied character. He has a frame of mind that may be described as a poetical mind that gets an insight into deep things by intuition, like a great poet or a Hebrew seer; it is as if Isaiah and J. P. Morgan were united in one individual. Poets are not usually of a logical scientific form of mind but Pastor Russell has these talents also, that is, he has the acute discrimination and analysis of a great lawyer, that can test the truth of things and sift the evidence on which they are founded. Thus the fallacies of the creeds of Christendom were brought to light as they had never been before.

 

His literary talent would distinguish him among the writers of his generation if he was tested by this alone. Without any special literary training he writes English in a simple and idiomatic style that sometimes reaches the sublime and that will make many passages from his pen take their place among English classics. Another phase of his many sided greatness is his scientific talent. He has the mind of an investigator and student, a scientific love of truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth; the freedom from bias, the willingness to accept truth wherever found, willingness to be corrected, no difference how humble the instrument, in short a mind like Agassiz and Newton. The field of research to which Newton applied himself was the physical world, the earth and sea and sky wherein God’s plan is revealed in regard to physical things. The field of research which Pastor Russell chose was the moral world, the plan of God in regard to mankind as revealed in the Bible. As Newton discovered the great Law of the Attraction of Gravitation which binds the universe together and brings order out of seeming confusion, so Russell discovered the grand "Plan of the Ages" which binds all history together and brings order into the field of theology where before there was so much confusion and error; founding all his teaching upon the impregnable rock of Holy Scripture, his position has been unassailable. The united talent of Nominal Christendom has striven for thirty-five years to overthrow his teachings but has not been able to meet him on his own ground (the Scriptures), with a single fair argument.

 

Standing, as we do now, in the midst of the battle of Armageddon we can thank God and take courage because the Lord has sent us so great a leader. Courageous as a lion, pure as snow, wise as a serpent, harmless as a dove, a knight of God without fear and without reproach, no obstacle can turn him, no danger dismay him, no grief or pain distract him from his grand purpose. His motto is the words spoken for him by the prophets: "For the Lord God will help me; therefore have I set my face like a flint, and I know that I shall not be confounded."

That Dr. Jackson writes some flattering bios! At least Russell didn't write it himself. I am having to write my own bio and refer to myself in 3rd person, that's always awkward and weird....

9 hours ago, JW Insider said:

logical scientific form of mind but Pastor Russell has these talents

Except when he said that small flies become bigger flies

22 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I can't help but see that he very carefully and deliberately put himself on a pedestal. It appears to have been his plan from the moment he began spending money to put himself on Barbour's masthead. His publishing career started with material he borrowed and presented as his own, but with added "humility" about how he is just God's servant which soon turned into a very humble way of saying that he was "God's mouthpiece."

It's just that he was so good at 19th century "mock humility" that people truly thought he was humble.

Hmmm...you may be right of course, it is a difficult thing for man to stay humble when he believes he has an important mission to accomplish. I believe his motives must have been noble though, why else would a man spend his fortune on something that would not profit him financially?

22 hours ago, JW Insider said:

included with Studies in the Scriptures claiming that Russell himself privately admitted to others that he was the "faithful and wise servant.

I don't blame him to be honest for thinking that.

22 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I have a couple from about 1915 with Russell, Rutherford and my great-grandfather.)

Cool!

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Some have tied this idea of each nation getting a guardian angel to the "watchers" of the books of non-canonical Enoch and canonical portions of Daniel. This is why Michael is the guardian archangel of Israel, and other nations have their own guardian angels. This relates to a question that @Anna asked recently on this forum . https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/topic/47150-why-do-we-understand-the-prince-of-persia-in-daniel-1013-to-be-a-wicked-angeldemon/?tab=comments#comment-69704

Thanks for drawing my attention to that question as I forgot all about it and never even noticed an answer there from @Gone Fishing

39 minutes ago, John Houston said:

These new one had no insight at first, right? Where would it come from?

From the teachers of course, and as you say, those who are taught themselves become teachers. I don't think that is a problem. What is being questioned here I think is that there is one group of teachers , 7 at present, who have the final say and also who make adjustments to their prior teachings. It is to be noted though, that there are many who have already understood some teachings to be "wrong" even before the 7 have made adjustments. This would indicate that others CAN interpret the Bible correctly by themselves. How I understand the arrangement is that although others have insight too, it is only those who are classed as the Faithful and Discreet Slave who distribute this knowledge to others. After all, they have the means to do it, (publications, talks etc.) whereas we do not.

9 hours ago, JW Insider said:

We could always send our questions to the Governing Body to see if they can come up with a scenario that does not create contradictions.

Say, JW Insider, have you ever sent a letter and received an answer?

15 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

very disappointed and are in dissident mode

I don't really see that. There have always been waves of JWs coming and going since I have heard and/or remember personally. Quite a number left during Russell's days, then in Rutherford's days, a number around the 1975 debacle and then around 1995. But also many have "survived" those times. Now with the transparency of the internet and social media era there will be others. But really, it's only weeding out those who are disappointed over selfish things, why else would they be disappointed? Those who believe God's Kingdom will come, whether in their life time or not, are not disappointed, after all, those who endure to the end will be saved.

2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

There! Happy?

You are very good at evading. Those are not likes