Anna

On 10/6/2017 at 5:08 PM, JW Insider said:

The only difference was that a religious organization could not own property but had to lease it.

What about the churches of Christendom? Were they also leased?

Like this one:

2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Two or three witness rule principe" are also great. haha 

Law enforcement will not take any action either if they cannot prove someone guilty. And if they do convict someone of child sexual molestation, then guess what, after serving a prison sentence, sometimes of only 6 moths to a year, they are released back into the community, and unless you have a sex offender tracker, you will have no idea there is one living in your neighborhood.

44 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Everything is relative, depend where some man position is

I thought you might understand what I was saying in this way. But that is not what I meant. As we say, "just one molested child is one too many". However, my point was that there will be a certain amount of crimes committed even among JWs, it is the law of averages. But to call it an "incredibly huge" amount gives the impression there is at least one pedophile in every congregation. When Raymond Franz (former G.B) was asked by a certain campaigner against the Witnesses about child sexual molestation in the organization, it was Raymond's opportunity to really expose this "huge problem". However, and much to the campaigners disappointment, Raymond told him that he did not think that child sexual abuse was a major problem in the organization and that it had been sensationalized. I believe had it been a huge problem, Raymond would have most definitely addressed it in one of his anti Witness books.

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

How can you be so insensitive again?? First with other people's feelings and problems in life, and now with other people's  money? Drop? That is not drop because most of JW members are not rich with money, have modest income.

I am afraid it is a drop if we spent $80 million dollars on stamps to send letters to Russia. Ask @James Thomas Rook Jr.. The most that was ever asked in a lawsuit was $21 million and that ended up being settled out of court for an undisclosed amount which would have been very much less than that (probably a few thousand). But if we are going to use your argument, then why are former members imposing this on their brothers and sisters? They don't seem to care much that "most of JW members are not rich with money, have modest income" do they?

2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

you have no one court case or settlement out of court announced on JWorg TV, not mentioned about how much money they paid to victims in his reports. No columns in Yearbook on that issue. That is nothing but hiding.

Are you serious? The organization is about preaching the good news. That is its mission. Problems arising from man's imperfection and the world in general are side issues that have to be dealt with by those who are  involved, and not by every single member of the organization. I mean would you expect every problem to be reported to the whole worldwide brotherhood? If not, then which problem would you chose to report and which would not be reported? The goal is to stop child sexual abuse and other problems. Not to report on the statistics of them. Have you been to this years convention? There was a whole talk based on protecting our children. All those who attended would have heard it, and all those who know that the organization never arbitrarily just puts information out there, will have understood that this talk was given because there is still a problem.

2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

problem of child molestation in JWorg are incredibly huge

Incredibly huge? That is a relative concept. A mouse is incredibly huge to an ant, but tiny to an elephant. By huge, do you mean there is at least one child molester in every congregation, or maybe more? Or is it "huge" because of the way it has been blown out of proportion by critics and opposers?

2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

millions of $ that WT Corporation

A drop in the ocean. The majority of cases are settled out of court, and don't forget, the WT uses its own lawyers, so no lawyer fees there.

2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

It is also because it was hidden in front JW members all this decades. 

It was never hidden. The publications made it clear that child molestation can happen, and gave helpful advice to parents on how to lessen the opportunity of it happening. I still remember that particular Awake from the 80's.

2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

That is not always role model how you, today must solving your problems

I agree, that is why principles are great, because you can adapt them to any situation in any period of time.

Why do we understand the "prince of Persia" in Daniel 10:13 to be a wicked angel/Demon when it seems that the messenger is talking about a succession of actual kings, and if the demon is called a "prince" of Persia,  who then is the "prince" of Greece in 10:20?

A thought has just occurred to me. Was Br. Russell ever baptised?

1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I see from the double circle  sketch that the generation begins about 1880?

I included Br. Russell and a random date of when he founded the WT society, by that time I assume he was anointed. We can just as easily leave him out as it does not change the 1914 generation.

1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

if you take the square of the last three numbers of your car license plate, and add it to 1880, and round it back arbitrarily to AD 4180, in anticipation of the formation of the First Galactic Empire.

Just drop your formula in the suggestion box at Bethel

32 minutes ago, Gone Fishing said:

It is not a matter of understanding. It is quite simply that the GB's definition of the word "generation" and the concept they have attached to it is not accepted by all people

Yes. Thank you for putting it succinctly into a nutshell. 

35 minutes ago, Gone Fishing said:

Scripturally harmonious.

But how can that be?

36 minutes ago, Gone Fishing said:

It seems that the final arbiter will be the passage of time and events as is often the case with matters of Bible prophecy.

Indeed. And that's what I'm relying on.

2 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Since when did "baptism dates" have

ANYTHING to do with how long a generation is?

It has everything to do with it since we are talking about the generation that was anointed before 1914. (Jesus talking about the signs of the last days which began in 1914 and THAT generation not passing away). Therefor the person would have to have been baptised before 1914. So it's that generation.  .

Which is where we encounter the problem because THAT generation is all but dead now and it does not apply to M. Sanderson, since he was baptised and became one of the anointed well after 1914 BUT, and this is the whole point of the overlapping generation, his life OVERLAPPED (between approx 1977 when Sanderson was baptised and 1992 when Franz died) with the life of one of the anointed who was baptised before 1914 (Franz).

On 9/28/2017 at 3:25 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

All sorts of hedge funds, money and stock funds. Trust entities. Building, buying and selling real estates.

Thank you. That answers my question about where does the money come from to cover litigation costs.

On 9/30/2017 at 8:42 AM, Srecko Sostar said:

What "long standing and widely published religious principles

Those religious principles in the WT and other publications. They part of the inserts of the 2017 policies.

On 9/30/2017 at 8:42 AM, Srecko Sostar said:

?If those NEW policy are long standing???? why change old Policy??? to New one that is long standing and widely known???

It is normal for policies to be adjusted to adapt to new circumstances, but the principles behind them do no change and have been long standing and widely know in WT articles and other publications available to everyone.

I thought I would do a little diagram illustrating the concept of the "overlapping generation". I ask myself, in all honesty, can those two groups (circles) really be called ONE generation? If you think the answer is yes, can you explain it using this diagram.

P.S. Sorry, dropped the L in Russell, and not sure of Mark Sanderson's baptism date.

20 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Speaking of which . . . Have you seen how hard it is to get a Warwick tour?

Unless you're like lucky, lucky me and have a friend there who will give you a private tour . No but seriously, it's who you know.....as always...

19 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

(JC elders asking very inappropriate questions, interrogation to children (and adults too) about sexual experience and what and how all that have happened) causing more trauma because elders have  not proper education (in every way) to deal with such sensitive issue

Although completely off topic on this thread I just thought I would mention this: This has already changed. Victims are no longer  required to “testify” in front of JC elders, and sisters may be able to assist the elders in establishing facts etc. (however sisters will never be able to take part in a JC committee because of its “official” nature).

View the 2017 Child Safeguarding policy HERE

This particular one is for the UK and Ireland, it will be the same all over the world.

5 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Of course, this doesn't mean that any of the words are wrong. We can worship in spirit and truth inside a physical place just as we can worship in spirit and truth when we are at home or at work or on vacation. Having a physical place is wonderful, but emphasis on one as "making our hope reality" or "what we wanted" can reach a point where we begin walking by sight, not by faith.

True, and we may also subconsciously perhaps view it as some kind of central temple, like the one the Israelites had in Jerusalem, and we may even stretch it further by reasoning that Jehovah’s spirit resides there more than it resides in any other building we use for worship.  Brings to mind the verse in Acts 17:24, where Paul is addressing the people of Athens, with the many temples dedicated to various Gods.  So I am hoping that the spirit behind those words will be understood to be more of it being  a small taste of what paradise will be like as regards living together and the  cooperation etc. and that everything done there "is for Jehovah” “ ...."and  because what we do (at Bethel) helps people draw close to Jehovah” as was brought out in last week’s WT study.

P.S. Notice the brother in the front row, (second one of the brothers from the right) is Nicolas King, the guy who sings Jazz professionally.

30 minutes ago, Gone Fishing said:

first impressions, it seems like we are all a bit in the dark!

Like Jesus said: "Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows, neither the angels in heaven nor the Son, but the Father" Mk 13:32.

Huh! Don't you hate it when someone's always right???

Hahaha, too true!

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Of course, what you are talking about would still be the common reasoning, even if we somehow found a way to restart the generation with the start of the Governing Body around 1972, or the apostasy in 1980, or AIDS, or cart witnessing, or the re-assignment of the Governing Body as "guardians of doctrine" around 2000, or even some brand new unexpected event in 2018.

So I brought up the point about the sign in Matthew 24 to propose that we would still be wrong to try to find new reasons to claim that earthquakes and wars were somehow more "concentrated" after a new starting date --

But Jesus did have a specific period of time in mind when he spoke of the first fulfillment didn't he? Should we not expect a specific period of time for the second fulfillment also?

3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Well - heavy things are afoot these days in the news. Maybe they will make all other points moot.

It makes one wonder...and we can only hope. But I still think we will all be taken by surprise, because things rarely have a habit of turning out like we thought they would!

Matthew 24:34 " All the generations, then, from Abraham until David were 14 generations; from David until the deportation to Babylon, 14 generations; from the deportation to Babylon until the Christ, 14 generations". This is counting each person's lifetime as a generation

Insight to the Scriptures under Generation, p917:

A generation commonly refers to all persons who were born about the same time. (Ex 1:6; Mt 11:16)

Associated with this is the meaning “contemporaries.” At Genesis 6:9 it is stated concerning Noah: “He proved himself faultless among his contemporaries [literally, generations...

Length. When the term “generation” is used with reference to the people living at a particular time, the exact length of that time cannot be stated, except that the time would fall within reasonable limits. These limits would be determined by the life span of the people of that time or of that population. The life span of the ten generations from Adam to Noah averaged more than 850 years each. (Ge 5:5-31; 9:29) But after Noah, man’s life span dropped off sharply. Abraham, for example, lived only 175 years. (Ge 25:7) Today, much as it was in the time of Moses, people living under favorable conditions may reach 70 or 80 years of age.....

“This Generation” of Christ’s Prophecies. When Bible prophecy speaks of “this generation,” it is necessary to consider the context to determine what generation is meant. Jesus Christ, when denouncing the Jewish religious leaders, concluded by saying: “Truly I say to you, All these things will come upon this generation.” History recounts that about 37 years later (in 70 C.E.) that contemporary generation personally experienced the destruction of Jerusalem, as foretold.—Mt 23:36.

Later that same day, Jesus again used practically the same words, saying: “Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.” (Mt 24:34) In this instance, Jesus was answering a question regarding the desolation of Jerusalem and its temple as well as regarding the sign of his presence and of the conclusion of the system of things. Before his reference to “this generation,” however, he had focused his remarks specifically on his “coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory” and the nearness of the Kingdom of God. Immediately afterward, he continued with references to his “presence.” (Mt 24:30, 37, 39; Lu 21:27, 31) Jesus was using the word “generation” with reference to humans whose lives would in some way be associated with the foretold events.—Mt 24.
The people of this 20th-century generation living since 1914 have experienced these many terrifying events concurrently and in concentrated measure—international wars, great earthquakes, terrible pestilences, widespread famine, persecution of Christians, and other conditions that Jesus outlined" (in Matthew mark and Luke).

However, I do understand the idea that the Slave is trying to present when it says "Contemporaries" rather than generation. But even then, in general, contemporaries also live and die roughly at the same time. As regards the contemporaries of a certain time period, for example the contemporaries of WW, that would surely not include someone who was born in 1960 would it? As for the contemporaries of a certain sign, in this case the "time of the end", well the contemporaries of that time could be as long as the "time of the end" lasted! In view of the different time concepts of humans as opposed to Jehovah, the time of the end could be a 1000 years long! And all those people that lived and died (approx.12 generations), could be counted as generations living in the "time of the end" if we are going to use that formula...

So....I hate to say it, but since I agree with the explanation of the Insight Book, and the dictionary definitions, I have no choice in this stream of time but to question the accuracy of 1914, rather than the logical understanding of Generation...and Contemporaries.  So that's my alternative suggestion @Gone FishingBut of course I could be wrong.

3 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

TTH:

THAT's my boy AMOS, that I used to keep chained to the attic rafters! 

Been missing for YEARS!

Here is a current portrait photo of me .... suitable for framing.

I have been framed before .. I am quite used to it.

I do see a certain resemblance

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Anna you have answer before eyes :))))

 

Hahaha, yes, you could call it disaster relief. But I'm being serious. Anyone?

In view of the midweek Bible study from the God's Kingdom rules book, and the chart "where do our donations go" I was wondering what do legal fees, such as lawsuits, fall under? Does anyone know. I was going to ask an elder friend after the meeting, but ran out of time...

Very good, the answer is not one but three! . I swear, it wasn't a trap, just plain ol logic

How many generations?

On lunch break. I just thought I would illustrate how easily hysteria can get a hold of even rational people; there is an old abandoned house at the end of a small field on a little hill in our neighbourhood. It’s been empty for years and there are vultures nesting on the top floor near the chimney. The windows are all broken, the door boarded up...well you get the picture. It looks a little like Norman BatesÂ’ mother could have lived there.  My son, when he was a teenager would go and take the dogs for a walk in the field, and at the weekends he and his friends would roam around there. We called it the haunted house. Well I still take the dog there for a run twice a day, as the owner of the property gave me permission. So guess what, the other night, after our extensive discussions of spirits and demon possession, I go and take the dog for his nightly walk as usual , but I never went near the house this time because I was spooked! Yep. I know intellectually there are no demons in that house, as I donÂ’t believe that is what demons do.  And yet I felt scared and weird about going there that night. I swear I could have seen NormanÂ’s mother peeking out of the window, lol. Talk about mental suggestion! So my point is, if Russell and others,  (later on Rutherford), occupied themselves with this subject that came in to vogue at the time, then no wonder readers were on high alert and perhaps saw something demonic in everything. If you think I am wrong then go and watch a horror film (I am not really suggesting you do that) and then go and walk down a dark alley or visit an old grave yard in the middle of the night.

Interestingly I think I found the culprit to the “hysteria” in the Truth book (of course there may be other publications). Note portions in bold.  That whole section is entitled “Keep free from every form of spiritism” Then it goes to list a variety of spiritistic practices, so the reader is made aware that dabbling in them (despite being popular) is not something a Christian would do.  Then it goes to the paragraph I cited bellow, about spirits misleading people by talking to them. But in view of the paragraph above it in the book, this is still within the framework of “spiritistic practices” in this case consulting a medium or dabbling with an Ouija board etc. in other words actively seeking out such a connection.  But the sentence in bold, can make someone understand that a demon will talk to you randomly out of the blue, even if you have not actively sought a connection.  And it’s then that we  have the suggestion to pray out loud and call on Jehovah’s name,  which reaffirms the understanding that the spirit has chosen you randomly, because why would you pray and say Jehovah’s name out loud if you were inviting the spirit to communicate with you in the first place? And there’s I think is the connection and misunderstanding.

Then the next paragraph re-connects the reader with the practice of spiritism again;  “what if someone had dabbled....and now wants to break free”. The advice is to destroy anything  related to spiritistic practices (used by the person I assume) in the manner of those in Ephesus, i.e. burn them.

So there is nothing saying that objects will be randomly possessed by demons and that the demons will randomly pick on you and talk to you. I am not saying that there may not have been magazine articles being more explicit about random demon possession and personal experiences stories of random possession, but it seems the Truth book never directly said anything like that, and looks more like it was the reader’s misunderstanding  that caused the confusion....To recap, it's the practice of spiritism, i.e. actively seeking out spirits that causes problems, not random objects, (even if perhaps once in the possession of a spirit medium), or random voices that pick on a person who has never consulted them, and then our personal feelings due to inferred "suggestion" from books such as the Truth book and other publications, and from stories. And then it's a viscous circle....

I am sure I could have said all this in a couple of sentences....

Truth book p. 62/63:

“One of the common ways in which wicked

spirits mislead people is by talking to them, either

through a spirit medium or by a "voice" from the

invisible realm. The "voice" pretends to be a departed

relative or a good spirit; but this is falsehood!

The voice is actually a wicked spirit speaking!

What should you do if such a "voice" speaks

to you? Well, what did Jesus Christ do when the

ruler of the wicked spirits spoke to him? Jesus

rejected the Devil's suggestions, saying: "Go

away, Satan!" [Matthew 4:10) You can do that

too. Also, you can call on Jehovah for aid, praying

aloud and using his name. Follow this wise course,

-and do not give ear to such voices from the invisible realm.

But what if one has been dabbling in some of

the spiritistic religions or sciences and now wants

to break free from spiritism? Well, what did many

of the early Christians at Ephesus do when they

wanted to get free from the magical arts? The

Bible tells us that, after accepting the "word of

Jehovah" preached by the apostle Paul, they

"brought their books together and burned them

up before everybody," even though they were

worth 50,000 pieces of silver! (Acts 19:19, 20)

Their example of destroying objects related to

spiritistic practices is the wise one to follow.

le Do not be deceived by the increasing interest

in mystic and occult matters. Wicked spirit creatures

are promoting such spiritism. But these

wicked spirit forces, including the Devil, will

eventually be destroyed. (Matthew 25:41) If you

want eternal life you need to stay free from their

influence by avoiding every kind of spiritism.