Anna

On 9/25/2017 at 8:19 AM, JW Insider said:

is that the tall lamp makes a distinct shadow, but none of the apostles, etc., make any shadows

I think this might be because the lamp is very close to the wall, whereas the apostles are not. They do cast some shadow, on each other, and the scroll, but not on the wall because of their distance, and the position of the light source.  But I agree, the shadow of the lamp looks a little exaggerated, probably to add interest and depth....It looks like the like the light source is coming from 3 o'clock and 4 o'clock...

14 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Samuel Herd Talk referencing Angels and Women.mp3

I didn't hear him say anything about it being a "fantastic novel" as quoted by the original poster, but he definitely recommended it  by saying; "You may want to pick it up and read it" and that "it's very interesting reading" .  

I would like to comment on a lot more but this is a busy two weeks for me work wise, and I am able only to read the comments, and  briefly reply with little snippets that don't require a lot of thought (well, I am blonde)...

7 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin 

Oh! Hasn't anyone started a topic on that yet?

(Chuckles wickedly)

6 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Yikes! Could it be? Do I not have feelings?

Well I was hoping J.R was referring to himself, the astute man that he is, but I'm afraid it was probably directed at JWInsider. He's just jealous....

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

And, let's not forget. . . . . [do not scroll down if you are squeamish]

Awwww..........that was a let down!

39 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

 But do we want to be a part of helping the Devil get the word out that he can possess objects if he cannot? That may have been what we were doing when we warned people that things they buy from Goodwill and garage sales might be possessed.

Exactly! 

34 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

....

I dunno....let me think.........to be honest, I didn't even think this thread was going to be this long. The "Burned over District" @Gone Fishing sounds like an interesting subject to pursue...

Just now, JW Insider said:

  It's now a mystery!

 

Quite appropriate for this topic

10 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Just as a point of etiquette. If a person has self-censored, I think this should be respected.

Yes. That was dumb of me, I shouldn't have used his name. I went ahead and edited it out.

40 minutes ago, Anna said:

.

12 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

There! A connection to hopefully keep this intriguing thread on track! 

 

11 hours ago, JW Insider said:

And just to help you keep @Anna's interest, she should know that Joseph Smith of Mormon fame also had his start in the Burned-over district. (In the same time period when Second Adventists began rescorching the region.)

Thank you both!

I did discover though that I can go back and edit the title of the topic. I have actually done that several times now as I started only with "Seola aka Angels and Women", but there is only so much one can say about a book, and so when I introduced some of the background on spiritism I added mummies...and then the "plethora" in hopes this would cover a broader scope. Then I realised we were no longer discussing the 1800's so I added "onward". This is my way of beating that "old hen" Librarian, who, believe it or not, introduced a topic of the Smurfs right here, and even bid others to comment on what they knew about them. But then took it down within the hour realising that was introducing an entirely different topic! Ha! So.....I will just edit the topic as needed and that will stop "the old hen" from shutting down further comments! This is MY topic, so lay off Librarian

13 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

16 hours ago, Anna said:

the demon’s seeking out individuals to haunt. Why would they do that with regard to the real objective they have.

I would say............why not?

Of course. Anything is possible. But my point was is it likely with regard to the Witnesses, since their objective is to do us lasting harm, not even to kill us physically, but to kill us spiritually. Therefor Satan's attempt at the "scorched Earth policy" must surely be futile, if we take his main objective into consideration.

13 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

It's about maintaining control over those who are not God's people by any means possible, including "circus shows", real or imagined.

Yes, and I agreed with this. Spiritistic practices, and various manifestations of the demons, whether  a haunted Castle in Scotland, or a voodoo tribe in Africa, serve well to occupy and distract people from the Truth. Indeed, haunted castles (whether real or imagined)  help propagate belief in the afterlife. But my main focus was not on those who are not God's people, but on those who are. Would Satan use those kind of tactics, if there are much more subtle and effective ones at his disposal, such as the ones I spoke about. Someone relayed an extreme experience  of demons trying to suffocate his mother. That tactic evidently wasn't very effective in causing his mother spiritual harm except it scared the living daylights out of both of them. I would guess that experience was from the 60/70s? It proves my point that the "hysteria" among the Witnesses went well beyond what started in the 1800's.  I feel there might even be a rational explanation to your nightmares and their subsequent cessation after the removal of the supposed culprit.....

13 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

Like all other tactics employed by this "fallen star", Satan, it is uncomfortable for those enduring, fatal for those succumbing, but, basically, futile to the one employing it. Remember, "we are not ignorant of his designs" 2Cor.2:11. But those we preach to are.

Yes.

7 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Brother Smurf is giving the public talk tomorrow. I'm going to run these points by him and see what he thinks.

Let us know! Oh, are you being funny about the Smurfs? Did they have something to do with demonism?

5 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

Jehovah gives us sufficient information in Scripture to warn us about spiritism, its origin and danger

Exactly

5 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

It's not difficullt to understand the need to keep well clear of its manifestations.

But my question was not regarding those who seek out the demons, but rather the demon’s seeking out individuals to haunt. Why would they do that with regard to the real objective they have. How would scaring someone such as the Sikh family accomplish their purpose if “their experiences preceeded my contact with them so could not be connected with them "starting to study the Bible"  and “They were looking however for a quick fix, some sort of exorcism ritual” so they weren’t interested in the Truth anyway, since you gave them the formula for beating the demons but it wasn’t what they were looking for.

5 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

Trying to analyse how the Devil works over and above the information provided in the Bible seems to be playing into the hands of one who is "far more intelligent than us" and dead set on our lasting harm.

Yes, that’s why it’s good to analyze the Devil's works based on the information provided in the Bible. A good place to start I think is analyzing what does it mean when you say “lasting harm”. Well, obviously that is referring to him putting our prospect of everlasting life in jeopardy.  So what would that entail? Wouldn’t that be if we became disloyal to Jehovah by practicing any of the things he hates, which includes being ..... "sexually immoral, idolaters,  adulterers,  men who submit to homosexual acts, men who practice homosexuality,  thieves, greedy people, drunkards, revilers, and extortioners”. If we practice those things we will not inherit God’s Kingdom.  However, the whole world is lying in the power of the "wicked one" and that is why we can say the whole world is geared towards making it easy to commit those sins, and to rationalize why it’s ok. Why do most people fall away from the truth? Isn’t it because they want to pursue their selfish fleshly desires, whatever these may be, and be “free” from Jehovah putting restrictions on them in that regard?  I have never heard of anyone falling away from the truth because a demon threw them out of bed.  Doesn’t Satan know that direct attacks only make his Witnesses stronger?  .....In your own example, didn’t the fact that when you got rid of the Ouija board confirm that the Witnesses had the truth? So wouldn’t that be counter productive for the demon, considering he is so intelligent? During communism in Easter Europe, most brothers and sisters were given ultimatums, but remained loyal despite harsh conditions as a result (many had to go and work in the coal mines).  They were viewed the same way as political dissidents and many were imprisoned. Then after the fall of communism and the introduction of capitalism, many of the same brothers and sisters were seduced by the lure of materialism and are no longer in the Truth today.  That is how Satan and his demons operate in the western world, with much success. The Bible tells us of the machinations of the Devil, and as Bible students we get to be very familiar with their subtleties. Did Satan persuade Eve by a showy display of power, or by scaring her out of her wits? No, he was subtle and cunning and thoroughly deceived her by appealing to the desire of the eyes and planting the idea that she could become independent of God and do what the heck she wanted. We know Satan's tactics haven't changed, he makes sure that people believe the only way to happiness is money, and the pursuit of pleasures. And maybe in America, throw in a dose of “charitable works and false religion in the shape of Christendom” to placate a spiritual need.

That is why I am skeptical about Satan and his cohorts putting on a circus show of how good they are at spooking the Witnesses because that notion, as far as I know, has not had any success in turning them away from the Truth, probably the opposite.

So, to answer the question " Are we saying that we are too intelligent to fall for their (the demons) childish tricks"? No, but wouldn't they be rather dumb if that is what they really do, because it doesn't seem to accomplish their main purpose, which is to do us lasting harm....

8 hours ago, JW Insider said:

“Python” was the name of the mythical snake that guarded the temple and oracle of Delphi, Greece. The word pyʹthon came to refer to a person who could foretell the future and also to the spirit that spoke through that one.

We don't have to guess where they got that idea from......and it makes sense, because many of the ideas of the pagans did spring from Bible accounts and were twisted and adapted according to need. That is why some people find it difficult to take the Bible seriously because they think it's just another made up story or legend to explain things that people did not understand at the time. I really enjoyed studying "Mankind's Search for God" during our family study when my son was still at home, because it deals concisely with the origins of various beliefs, getting down to the grass roots, and showed that there is an explanation for everything pertaining to religions including their spiritistic practices. 

18 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

As for “hysteria”, anyone can fall victim to an imagined preconceived notion such as it was done in 1975

Yes. Good point.

8 hours ago, JW Insider said:

What JTR pointed out here once, which surprised me for how obvious it seems now, was that no one ever warned the brothers that a used car (or car parts from a junk-yard, or a used lawn-mower, etc) might just as well be demon-possessed. It was always the things that women were known to shop for.

Hahaha, maybe it's because women are sent by the devil, as some men believe And the first one really was.

13 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

I have to say I would be wary of dismissing this outright as "mass hysteria", although obviously these things have a way of taking hold on a certain mentality. Anecdotal I know, but I do have a couple of experiences in this area. Here's one:

When I first had a Bible study, I was staying in a premises in Central London. I was subject to a repetitive nightmare of disturbing images and a feeling of someone in the room. This took place a number of times in such a way that I could not ignore it's repetitive nature. Not being one for disturbed sleep, I was concerned about this, so on the strength of a paragraph in the old Truth book (p145, para 14), I searched the room. Under the couch I was sleeping on I found....a Ouija board! I dispensed of it and ..you guessed it...no more sleepless nights!

I was hoping someone would relay an experience. There seems to have been a lot of experiences like these, some of my friends, my mother in law, my husband, all have either personal stories or of someone they knew, but my only experience was the trembling mattress. You could say I am a skeptic, but like JWI, not about the fact, but more about the manner.  I hate saying it, especially to people that have personally had an experience, as it makes me look like I don't believe them. And I am not saying I doubt your experience either.  I don't know what to think but mainly, I try and reason rationally and try and put myself into the demon's shoes (now that really does sound weird, lol). I think, what do we know about their primary objective?  Is it to scare people just for kicks and giggles, or do they, like their leader, desire everyone to not get to know Jehovah, or if the person is already serving Jehovah, then to turn them away. Surely these fallen angelic creatures are far more intelligent than us, and therefor would surely use more sophisticated methods than haunting houses and making things go bump in the night to turn people away from Jehovah. (To some extend, they may be feeding into the superstitions and fear of demons in countries like Africa,  that would be understandable because in this way they can keep people occupied and in their vice, so they are less likely to be able to focus on getting the truth. But with Brothers and Sisters, who already know the truth, what would be the point?)  We don’t need a demon to convince us of his existence by some manifestation of his power, because we already believe he exists and is capable of supernatural manifestations. In fact, I think the more attention one gives them, the more they are succeeding. This was confirmed to me by one of our circuit overseers a few years back (and I think I have mentioned this on this forum somewhere before), this was during the meeting with the pioneers, he asked where do we think that half of the t-shirts we wear are made, and by whom.  Yes, in countries rife with spiritism, and for all we know we might be wearing an item of clothing made by someone who is a spirit medium. Does that mean we should throw out all our clothes just in case? He said we need to be reasonable. Then he went on to relate an experience (from the 80’s) of a new brother and sister in his congregation who were convinced there was a demon living in their house.  They had burned so many things already and there was no let up.  Our circuit overseer was just a young elder at the time and he took his visiting Circuit Overseer to their house (which was quite bare by then) for shepherding.  The CO’s advice? Stop burning things! He explained that by getting so anxious, they were actually pandering to the demon’s objective to disrupt their life. He said the demons do not deserve ANY of our attention. Our attention should be on Jehovah and doing his will. He said just STOP. They did, and lo and behold, all their troubles stopped too. Which was just as well as they were about to burn the bed they were sleeping in.  I was glad our CO told us this story as it pretty much confirmed what I had been thinking for a while.

I had a study with an older gentleman about 4 years ago, (well actually it was going to be a proper study from the Bible teach book as he agreed to it on my next call). I had been calling on him a few months already and he always invited us in and was very interested in the Bible. He and his wife were Catholic, and as we know, most Catholics do not know much about the Bible. We had a few very nice conversations and he seemed to be so keen. That day when he agreed to a regular Bible study he also asked me whether we believed in demons as he was worried about some strange noises coming from the Garage and upstairs closet. I thought uh oh. I had heard quite a few stories about ones starting to study and being bothered by demons (including yours now!).  So I told him that yes, we believe demons exist, and that we will learn about them and what they do as our Bible study progresses, but as for them doing things like this now, I said naaah, and waived my hand in dismissal, it’s most likely some critter looking for food. He nodded and seemed satisfied. He said he is looking forward to our study next week. Well guess what, as I get there a week later, diligently prepared, he opens the door with a sad look on his face. He confessed that he had been hiding the Bible teach book and the magazines in a drawer, because he didn’t want his wife finding out he was talking to the Witnesses, because from their conversation he realised she was strongly opposed  (she was never at home when we called) and that she had found his stash and threw it all in the bin,. Apparently she never mentioned it, but he knew he would be in big trouble if he had any more to do with us, and so out of a “desire to preserve my marriage” as he put it, he asked us not to call again, and that he was really sorry.  The two things I did learn was that if the demons had anything to do with it, it was a lot more clever and effective  than rappings in a garage.......and who it was that wore the pants in that household....

14 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

Then we should be wary that what took place in biblical times, Matthew, Luke, and Mark, can, have an impact in modern times.

Yes it can have an impact. But we mustn't forget that demons too move with the times and adapt their methods. I doubt they would try to convince an atheist of their existence for example. In the "enlightened" western world, especially within more rational cultures the experience with demons like in Jesus' day is limited. Unless you're an Italian Catholic it appears. It's something that people like to get entertained by more than anything.

I thought I’d also mention that funnily enough this kind of “mass hysteria” regarding spiritism prevailed into the 1990’s among the Witnesses, and was marked by supposed demon possession of items brought in bazaars, including mattresses which would throw the person on to the floor. Friends were known to do almost public burnings reminiscent of those who practiced magic in Paul’s day, of any items thought to be demon possessed. I too was guilty of this "hysteria" which confirms what @Gone Fishinghad probably in mind when he said had we lived in Russell's day, we too would have made the kind of "errors" in judgement that they did. One morning I was lying in bed, when I could have sworn my mattress shook. I thought to myself, this is it, it's possessed. In my mind I was already going through the steps of how I would tell my mother, and then the practical procedure of where and how we would burn it. No doubt we would have to pour  gallons of petrol on it because these demons are very resistant and stubborn, as I learned in one account in one of our magazines. I was worried about how to broach the subject though. The thought did occur to me that maybe I had done something wrong, and this is why I had been chosen by these supernatural beings as their next victim. I didn't have to worry too long because as soon as my mother got out of the shower, she had a phone call from one of her friends asking her if she had felt the tremor too. There had been a small earthquake. Whew!

3 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

Maybe Mrs. Smith went to Washington, decided to read the books of Adam and Eve along with the Book, Enoch, “NOT THE BIBLE” and decided a rewrite. I don’t know if plagiarism was high back then, but if it was, then it makes, for better storytelling. That also speaks for canonical and non-canonical books. And if Mrs. Smith never read the canonical bible (KJV), or books therein, then she was correct.

Possibly. There doesn't seem to be any information whether she did or didn't consult the account in Genesis, although perhaps that was a a given. But yes, she definitely seems to have consulted non canonical Hebrew writings and even the sanskrit literature of India. She would have got similar information about a flood since as we know, the flood "legend" appears in most ancient writings. What is definite is her novel is a hundred times more accurate Biblically than that awful movie Noah, which I only watched because of Russel Crowe and because everyone said how terrible it was.

3 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

Or maybe just did what any of us would have done, had we been there. We can all look back on our "naivety".

I agree completely! Hindsight is  20/20

3 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

I always found it fascinating that the Greek word translated as "spiritism" (pharmakeia) has no relationship to the word "spirit" (pneuma) or any of it's derivatives.

Googles quick reference result is interesting: The ancient Greek word “pharmakon” is paradoxical and can be translated as “drug,” which means both “remedy” and “poison”. ... From the same root derives another word, “Pharmakos” (Greek: φαρμακος), which becomes later the term“pharmakeus”, meaning druggist, poisoner, by extension, wizard, magician or sorcerer.

Of course the relationship  to our modern "pharmacist" can easily be seen.

Interesting, thanks!

2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Hey lady, what is it with you and those Mormons?

 

I know......I just can't seem to stop....

 As we know, spiritism has been around since the fall of Adam and Eve in various forms, but “modern spiritism” (or spiritualism), apparently  “developed and reached its peak growth in membership from the 1840s to the 1920s, especially in English-speaking countries. By 1897, spiritualism was said to have more than eight million followers in the United States and Europe, mostly drawn from the middle and upper classes"  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritualism  

My opinion is that Spiritism can be associated with a type of “mass hysteria” which is defined by Wikipedia as: "a phenomenon that transmits collective illusions of threats, whether real or imaginary, through a population in society as a result of rumors and fear"^..

I don’t want anyone to think I am dismissing that spirits are real and that they have had influence in the past and present.  I am merely suggesting that a lot of beliefs and stories surrounding the concept of a spirit world in modern times can be attributed to “mass hysteria” and it could explain Russell and others being influenced by it (the hysteria, not the spiritism). I agree with JWI comment in one of the threads: “I do think people who tend to decide that everything is either Satan or Jehovah are more likely to fool themselves into thinking in black and white. When they don't understand something and think it's positive then that must be Jehovah. When they don't understand something and they think that it's negative, then it must be Satan” A classic example, as also brought out by JWI is the dramatic musings of Br Woodworth regarding what he thought were influences from Satan: “Visions may be tried, wonderful illuminations of the mind as by a soft but glorious greenish or yellowish haze. Seductive suggestions may be made, based on circumstances of the environment. Offers of inspiration may be made. (Finished Mystery) When I read that it reminded me of what the author of Seola said regarding her inspiration for the novel: “...listening to the performance of an extraordinary musical composition. It was sudden and unforeseen as the landscape which sometimes appears to a benighted traveller, for one instant only, illumined by the lightning's flash”

It seems like people in those days were full of notions of “Gothic Romanticism” and flowery speech. Coupled with the “mass hysteria” I mentioned, you have the ingredients for all kinds of perceived ideas and theories. Interestingly, during that period of time people were also fascinated with anything Egyptian, initiated by the public unwrappings of mummies in the 1920’s in Europe, (brought over by French archeologists during Napoleon's invasion of Egypt) and later the travelling mummy  exhibits in the United States (where Joseph Smith purchased the Egyptian papyri claiming they were  written by Abraham, sorry @TrueTomHarley)

I made up a (very incomplete) list of just some of happenings during that particularly “spiritistic” era.

1823 Joseph Smith is visited by Angel Moroni

1827 Jane Webb publishes her Gothic fiction “The Mummy!”

1835 Joseph Smith publishes the “Book of Abraham”

1845 Edgar Allan Poe publishes his poem “the Raven”

1848 The Fox sisters begin their “mysterious” rappings

1875 Ms. Mary Baker Eddy publishes her book “Science and Health”

1878 Ms. Smith publishes her novel Seola

1890 Elijah Bond gives commercial birth to the Ouija board (what is commercial birth?....I think I just made that one up)

1923 Greber attends his first séance

1937 Greber translates Bible manuscripts

etc. etc.

Of course in that list would also be Russell’s writings, including Woodworth’s “Finished Mystery”

But I am no more suggesting that Russell or Woodworth were under the influence of the spirit world than I am suggesting that any of the other the people in my list were.  Joseph Smith was an egotistical con man, Edgar Allan Poe, although brilliant, an alcoholic and drug addict, the Fox sisters con artists, Elijah Bond an opportunistic businessman....etc. etc.  I believe they all had their reasons for why and what they wrote or did, but communicating with the spirit world was not one of them. ...

Nor would I ever suggest Russell and co were con men, but rather, naively led along with the fascinations of that time, and maybe sometimes influenced by a lack of sleep.

6 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

Since spiritism was a fade in those days. Could it be possible, people like Gerber and others lied in order to receive recognition? After all, Gerber’s wife was the “medium”, not Gerber. He could have simply seen a different bible translation from earlier works and ran with as a spiritual, calling (The powers of BE). Unfortunately, opposers did the same thing.

 

I don't know much about Greber. But since he lived in that popular spiritistic era, it's quite possible. Reminds me of Joseph Smith translating the golden tablets, and instead of a hat and seer stone, Greber had his wife.....