Anna

11 hours ago, Witness said:

Are you putting the Son of God on the same level as the GB?

No, of course not. But you used the example of Jesus, implying we should do what he did, so I was asking what you thought he would do in the 21st century to get the good news preached, without miracles.

11 hours ago, Witness said:

Are you dismissing the power of Holy spirit within Christ and his ability to empower others? Ps 110:1-4  Didn’t he use the Holy Spirit to perform powerful works in the first century; and, are you forgetting who his Father is? 

 I’m not dismissing that at all, but we both know that those powerful works performed in the 1st century  ceased.

11 hours ago, Witness said:

Perhaps you are saying that Jesus would have to take Satan up on his offer of riches and power and prominence in the world to get the work done in the way the Watchtower does.

Now you’re being ridiculous. As if the WT ever had, or has, or will have, the kind of riches, and power and prominence Jesus was offered. Not even close. I really don't think you've thought that one through considering Christendom's churches, such as the Catholic Church etc.

11 hours ago, Witness said:

It is an unrealistic perception to believe God must choose man’s way to get his will done. 

It is an unrealistic perception I agree.  As it is, God has given the privilege to man to make disciples for Jesus  and to tell all about the Kingdom.  

The topic bellow is not accepting any further comments so I have no choice but to start another topic, although this thread will probably be really short...

I  wanted to comment on this remark made by @Alessandro Corona : "Russell was also involved in the distribution of a book written by a demon through automatic/angel writing called seola, later renamed to of angels and women. Samuel Herd has even come out and said it was a fantastic novel. So you can see the type of judgment the leadership of bethel really has".

That the book was written through automatic angel writing is mere speculation and not based on any know facts.  The publishers Leopold Classic Library commented on its re- print: ....."our view is that this is a significant literary work, which deserves to be brought back into print after many decades...... We hope that you will enjoy this wonderful classic book”  I have the book, and agree with both Leopold publishing and Br. Herd (if he really said anything like what was quoted). It is a romantic novel of the caliber of well known classics and if you can get a hold of it (Amazon has it) then I recommend it for your library.

I think the rumour originally got started because it was said that  Ms. Ann Eliza Smith, the author, had never read the Bible and despite that, her observations regarding that time (antediluvian) were remarkably accurate so much so that is was deemed she must have had this information communicated to her via an angel. I find it unlikely that she didn’t know anything about the Bible since most people at that time did, and one of her other novels (From dawn to sunrise) apparently deals with “the historical and philosophical religious ideas of mankind”. She herself says that : “the theory upon which the story is founded is in strict accordance with the sacred writings of the Hebrews and traditions of other ancient nations”.

Anyway, for those who want to know more about the novel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seola

Note what the footnote says about the music that she said had inspired her: “A book review publisher called, "Good Company-Sunday Afternoon: A magazine for the household" released an article on the novel Seola in 1878. The magazine believed the compositions that motivated Smith to write the novel was the prelude to the “Creation”, one of Strauss’s waltzes, a scrap of a symphony of Saint Saens, and Wagner’s Centennial March, all played simultaneously in a small room”. 

Also note the reason Br. Russell recommended the book was because: "we believe it will be of interest to Bible Students, who are familiar with the machinations of the devil and the demons and the influence exercised by them prior to the flood and also now in this evil day. The book throws light on the subject and is believed, will aid those who carefully consider it to avoid the baneful effects of spiritism, now so prevalent in the world".

Of course this kind of reasoning was very popular at the time because as was said "spiritism was now so prevalent in the world"*. However now, we would just consider the novel an interesting read as any other, well written story, (that was made up but based on facts), would be.

*It seems the popularity of spiritism (called spiritualism by wikipedia) got it's modern start in Europe and the USA in the late 1800's with the "help" of the Fox sisters: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fox_sisters

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Witness said:

Regarding earthly riches Jesus taught just the opposite of what the Watchtower practices. 

He carried a money bag to give to the poor.  He turned over the money tables on the temple steps, shouting, “stop turning my father’s house into a marketplace!”  John 2:16

He said, “sell your belongings and give to the poor”.  As the Wt. sells KHs, do they “give back” to those in need?  Or…do they invest in more shady stocks, like those in the the link I provided?  The GB reside in comfort, their physical needs are met.  Why are they any more worthy than anyone else, to receive physical comfort?  Jesus, who had nowhere to lay his head, said “it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.”  Luke 18:25 

The leaders will tell you with apparent sincerity that the example of Jesus is what you, as a sheep should display.  So, you give to what you think is the true need – the organization.   Along with you, are thousands digging into their pockets and who will not be eating three meals a day as the GB does, or sleeping in plush surroundings as the GB does.  These poor ones will save from their want to serve the needs of the organization. 

The Wt leaders are to be walking in Jesus’ footsteps, even to the point of denying oneself. Matt 16:24   Clearly, they have left that path and desire all that the world’s riches can provide them; including power and prestige.   Didn’t Jesus say to love one’s neighbor as yourself?  By doing so, wouldn’t the needs of the other person become paramount?

“Give, and it will be given to you; a good measure—pressed down, shaken together, and running over—will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.”  Luke 6:38

The flock is fleeced not only monetarily, but spiritually.  Rev 3:17,18

 

You have very unrealistic perceptions. This is not the 1st Century. If Jesus was on earth today, what do you think he would be doing? (if it wasn't time yet to rule over the earth). I reckon he would be organizing the preaching of the Kingdom in all the earth, as that is the commission he left his disciples with.  Assuming he refrained from using his supernatural powers, how do you think he would go about it?

3 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

How would you qualify your message different than that of ex-witnesses, then?

I am not trying to convey a "message". I hope I am merely presenting facts.

@AllenSmith

I'm afraid we might be misunderstanding one another.  I for my part find it difficult to see what you are trying to say sometimes because I know English is not your first language.  And you might find it difficult understanding what I am saying for the same reason. It’s not your fault. And I am partly to blame for this confusion as  I have clearly veered off topic. None of this has anything to do with demonism and the WT.  I joined the thread when it was already very well along and to be honest I never even read the initial post for this topic......I will go back and take a look at it.  In any case, I don’t think the WT, as in the organization now, nor during Russel or Rutherford's day, has ever had anything to do with demonism, at least not intentionally. As for past mistakes, I don't have any problem with those.

3 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

By the way. Russell wasn’t buried under the pyramid stone. The pyramid stone is simply a “marker” that was placed 5 years after his death by close friends of Russell, NOT the Watchtower

I know, I have been there, his grave is a couple of steps to one side, and apparently the "Bible Students" keep stealing his photograph that's there on his grave stone.

I still don't know what you mean by "the Watchtower".

26 minutes ago, AllenSmith said:

Then you have a KNOWN ERROR! to understand the pyramid gravestone was placed way after Russell's burial, buy friends of Russell NOT the Peoples' Pulpit association or the Watchtower Bible and tract society. The same can be said about Rutherford. A few good people bought and paid for the house in San Diego, NOT the Watchtower. So, the only reason to bring up such distortion becomes a KNOWN ERROR. So, should we use this as a constant here?

Whatever.....I think you just want to argue....I wasn't even worried about who sanctioned what, and who bought what, the fact is Russell's theory about the great pyramid didn't die with him but much later, and the belief about the ancient worthies coming to earth before Armageddon didn't die with Rutherford, but quite a number of years later.

Just some funny trivia; when Br. Rutherford was interviewed by the Time magazine when it became known he deeded the house to the ancient worthies, he said "I have purposely landscaped the place with palm and olive trees so these princes of the universe will feel at home when they come to offer man a chance to become perfect.” Here is the whole article:

and here is the deed:

 

4 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I have an entire Mormon category on my blog

I  know, you already told me that on the other thread, and I did reply And it's Donny and Marie Osmond if I'm not mistaken

 

3 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

1.       Pastor Russell Pyramid stone was NOT sanctioned by the Watchtower. It was placed by loyal Bible Students to Russell.

I don't know what exactly you mean by "the Watchtower". Surely it was sanctioned by whoever was in charge of the society at the time.

3 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

2.       Judge Rutherford Beth Sarim home in San Diego was NOT sanctioned by the Watchtower. It was provided by loyal friends of Rutherford after developing breathing problems from being imprisoned for sedition by the Catholic Church

Again, not sure what you mean by "the Watchtower". And no, that is not the only reason, Proclaimers book:

Box/Picture on page 76]
“House of the Princes”
 Brother Rutherford had a severe case of pneumonia after his release from unjust imprisonment in 1919. Thereafter, he had only one good lung. In the 1920’s, under a doctor’s treatment, he went to San Diego, California, and the doctor urged him to spend as much time as possible there. From 1929 on, Brother Rutherford spent the winters working at a San Diego residence he had named Beth-Sarim. Beth-Sarim was built with funds that were a direct contribution for that purpose. The deed, which was published in full in “The Golden Age” of March 19, 1930, conveyed this property to J. F. Rutherford and thereafter to the Watch Tower Society.
  Concerning Beth-Sarim, the book “Salvation,” published in 1939, explains: “The Hebrew words ‘Beth Sarim’ mean ‘House of the Princes’; and the purpose of acquiring that property and building the house was that there might be some tangible proof that there are those on earth today who fully believe God and Christ Jesus and in His kingdom, and who believe that the faithful men of old will soon be resurrected by the Lord, be back on earth, and take charge of the visible affairs of earth.”
  A few years after Brother Rutherford’s death, the board of directors of the Watch Tower Society decided to sell Beth-Sarim. Why? “The Watchtower” of December 15, 1947, explained: “It had fully served its purpose and was now only serving as a monument quite expensive to keep; our faith in the return of the men of old time whom the King Christ Jesus will make princes in ALL the earth (not merely in California) is based, not upon that house Beth-Sarim, but upon God’s Word of promise.”
[Footnote]
At the time, it was believed that faithful men of old times, such as Abraham, Joseph, and David, would be resurrected before the end of this system of things and would serve as “princes in all the earth,” in fulfillment of Psalm 45:16. This view was adjusted in 1950, when further study of the Scriptures indicated that those earthly forefathers of Jesus Christ would be resurrected after Armageddon.—See “The Watchtower,” November 1, 1950, pages 414-17.

3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

One of the elders in our congregation has created a kind of "formula" at the end of all his prayers over the last few years, where he thanks Jehovah for the Governing Body, then "redundantly" offers thanks for the  wonderful food provided by the Slave, through Jesus Christ. Amen.  He prayed at a backyard bar-b-que this summer and accidentally thanked Jehovah for "this food provided by the Slave."  I thought he meant one of our wives.

Hahaha, that is hilarious! There must be an  elder like that in every hall, we have one! (And don’t tell me you don’t @Gone Fishing)  The curious thing is, off the platform this brother can be quite crass and has made some rather dirty and inapropriate (as in sexually) remarks about some women to my husband. Maybe when he’s up there he feels the need to make atonement and that’s his way of doing it. A few weeks ago we had a speaker from another hall and in his talk he asked if we thank Jehovah regularly for the Bible and the publications he has authored. To be fair to him, maybe he was nervous and didn’t mean to say it quite this way. In any case, my husband and I looked at each other and he whispered in my ear “I thought Jehovah only authored the Bible”. Sometimes I think some of us say things, as you say, as if it was a “formula”. How many times do you hear friends saying, when there is a disaster, Jehovah protected them etc. when you know that if that was the case, then Jehovah is partial, because he helped brother Albert, but sister Mildred unfortunately got struck by flying debris and died.

6 hours ago, JW Insider said:

They have said that they would rather follow the Governing Body into KNOWN ERROR than to accept the Bible where it is known to differ from the current teachings of the Governing Body.

I know who you're talking about as I saw their remark too. I would like to believe though it was made because the person lacked maturity and said it in more of a "cut my nose off to spite my face" manner. But I could be wrong. As Fishing says, some people have all the fun But not me, I have not met anyone in real life who says that, but who knows, they might be thinking it!

6 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

If you were going to put your throne somewhere, the Pleiades is the place to be. I'd put mine there.

The Mormons (what is it that I've got with the Mormon's - I seem to bring them up all the time) believe God resides on a planet and that when we die we will have our very own too! Maybe you can put your name in for Pleiades

3 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

In both the cases you mention, the GB seeks to mitigate, not propagate, fat-headed notions that the friends may have. 

Maybe. But I would expect things like this to be mentioned in a "history" book, such as the Proclaimers book, even if no one had a notion about it in the first place...

11 hours ago, JW Insider said:

The dirty laundry is already hung up for everyone to see.

11 hours ago, JW Insider said:

of course, it's easy to show that we regularly misrepresent our past almost every time we print a book about it or make a claim about it. We do it as individual humans and we do it as an organization. It's a common human failing to want to be seen as better than we really are.

A few years ago we were visiting my husband's relatives in Pittsburgh and also went to their congregation in Allegheny. In conversation with one of the elders there about Russell, I mentioned how funny it was that he believed the great pyramid was God's witness in stone. He frowned and said "yeah....but we don't talk about that" (as in DON'T talk about it). Later on that afternoon we went to see Russell's grave site there up on the hill, and as you probably know, there is a big tombstone in the shape of a pyramid, (including the engraved names of the anointed at the time, and the "all seeing eye") even visible from the road below..... thinking about it now....well, there's a witness "in stone" right there And what's even funnier is that the elder who "chastised" me, regularly takes visitors up there....

To be fair though, the Proclaimers book and probably other newer publications do mention this unusual belief that Russell had. But usually you have to be aware of  it in the first place to go digging for it. I remember reading about Beth-Sarim, the house of the Princes that Rutherford built to receive the resurrected ancient worthies in the Proclaimers book too. But I first found out about it from, yes you've guessed it, the internet.

5 hours ago, JW Insider said:

It's what's behind the instinct to call something "obviously rubbish" and "nonsensical gobbledygook" even if it's more true than false.

I don't want to speak for Fishing,  he is quite capable of explaining himself, but what I understood him to mean by that is not that the information you presented was rubbish - as in untrue, after all you cited references, but that the belief itself was rubbish and obviously nonsensical.

19 minutes ago, Gone Fishing said:

. Is there any room for angelic direction in the preaching work?

Yes, I know, I know. This also crossed my mind and there is scriptural support for it isn't there? I just can't think of the scriptures right now as I'm getting ready to go to bed. Still, I think angelic direction in this respect works a little different to what we've been talking about....not only that, but apparently this angelic direction is not directed exclusively to a select few, but wherever and to whoever as ineeded.

1 hour ago, AllenSmith said:

OK, even though it seems you might not quite have understood Bro Jackson's summary,

How do you understand Br. Jackson’s summary?

1 hour ago, AllenSmith said:

and you didn't answer the "fallible" part.

I didn’t think it was relevant to the topic, but I can give an example of fallibility, again using what Br. Jackson said in the previous quote: “and it could be that in our initial discussions there was something that maybe we were missing and then in another discussion that would come to light"

1 hour ago, AllenSmith said:

ow is your understanding in prayer driven spiritual enlightenment directly through God's Holy Spirit. Wouldn't God inspire those he has chosen through prayer instead by spiritism, or other means of communication God has the "power" to achieve what direction he would want those that have full trust and faith in him, that whichever avenue he chooses, can't be questioned?

I am not questioning that God has the “power” to use whichever avenue he chooses to communicate, even today.  I am saying that it is reasonable to conclude that the avenue he is using today is his inspired Word, because with it “the man of God is fully equipped”  and needs nothing else. (2 Tim. 3:16,17). Anything we as JWs have ever taught always goes back to the Bible, even if our understanding of some of it has been erroneous in the past.

This brings me to your next question

1 hour ago, AllenSmith said:

Now, you mentioned, we "all" have the same capability, How so?

We all have the Bible, and we can all pray for holy spirit. Which means we can all be guided by it, by means of the Bible, similarly to the GB. “Therefore, if you, although being wicked, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more so will the Father in heaven give holy spirit to those asking him!”( Luke 11:13), “for the holy spirit will teach you in that very hour the things you should say.” (Luke 12:12)  etc.

WT 12/1/15 mentions:  Making Study Time More Enjoyable and Productive

“The first step to take is to pray. (Ps. 42:8) Why? We should consider the study of God’s Word to be part of our worship. Therefore, we need to ask Jehovah to put us in the proper frame of mind and to give us his holy spirit. (Luke 11:13) Says Barbara, a longtime missionary: “I always pray before I read or study the Bible. After that, I feel that Jehovah is with me and that he approves of what I am doing.” Prayer before study opens our mind and heart to accept fully the abundant spiritual food that is before us”.

There are thousands more examples of how we all have the same capability, all you need to do is enter “holy spirit” , "Bible" and  "prayer" into the word search in your WT library….

When Jesus talks about the Slave in Matthew 24:45 “Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time”  I notice  that Jesus never says they will have some special understanding  that no one else will be capable of, or that they will have an exclusive channel of communication or means of getting information other than the Bible. Jesus merely says that the Slave will be in charge of dispensing the spiritual food. Jesus also said he, not the Slave or any other man, will be with all of us as the head of the Christian congregation. 

So, where the slave differs to us is that they are anointed, and charged with the dispensing of spiritual food to the domestics, of which they are also a part. (Of course we know that the anointing itself isn’t a guarantee that the person will stay anointed forever, that can change).

13 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

The probability is 72.4962% give or take

Now this one, you just pulled out of a hat! You need to try a little harder, I know it's late...

4 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

I'll leave someone else to determine the probability ratio.

I think we should let @TrueTomHarley have a go at that one, since he did such a good job with pinpointing the day of the End in Tomsheepandgoats.

2 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

I noticed you seem to take what the Watchtower article, suggested toward the GB of neither inspired nor infallible to heart. What is your clear understanding on that? You keep implying it as an absolute, so, please, ascertain your meaning.

Well,....the Awake #3  in the topic IS THE BIBLE REALLY FROM GOD?  “INSPIRED”—WHAT DOES IT MEAN? states: .....the expression “inspired of God” means that the Source of the information in those writings is God......... Some Bible writers actually heard God’s message conveyed audibly by an angel. Others saw visions from God. In some cases, God communicated his message in the form of dreams   

The Insight book  p. 1206  says this: Inspiration The quality or state of being moved by or produced under the direction of a spirit from a superhuman source…….. “Inspired Expressions”—True and False. The Greek word pneu′ma (spirit) is used in a special manner in some apostolic writings. At 2 Thessalonians 2:2, for example, the apostle Paul urges his Thessalonian brothers not to get excited or shaken from their reason “either through an inspired expression [literally, “spirit”] or through a verbal message or through a letter as though from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here.” It is clear that Paul uses the word pneu′ma (spirit) in connection with means of communication, such as the “verbal message” or “letter.” For this reason Lange’s Commentary on the Holy Scriptures (p. 126) says on this text: “By this the Apostle intends a spiritual suggestion, pretended prediction, utterance of a prophet.” (Translated and edited by P. Schaff, 1976) Vincent’s Word Studies in the New Testament states: “By spirit. By prophetic utterances of individuals in Christian assemblies, claiming the authority of divine revelations.” (1957, Vol. IV, p. 63) Thus, while some translations simply render pneu′ma in this and similar cases as “spirit,” other translations read “message of the Spirit” (AT), “prediction” (JB), “inspiration” (D’Ostervald; Segond [French]), “inspired expression” (NW)".

So, the Slave is not inspired i.e. does not receive any communications from the spirit realm. But they are spirit directed (as we all are to a certain extend) and there is a difference.

I will let Br. Jackson explain what it means being spirit directed:

Q By what mechanism would you understand God's spirit to direct your decisions?

Br. Jackson:  "Well, what I mean by that is, by prayer and using our constitution, God's word, we would go through the scriptures and see if there was any biblical principle at all that would influence our decision - and it could be that in our initial discussions there was something that maybe we were missing and then in another discussion that would come to light.  So we would view that as God's spirit motivating us because we believe the Bible is God's word and came by means of holy spirit". Source: ARC public hearing

So in summary, to say that one of the anointed may have received some kind of communication from one of the anointed in heaven regarding the great crowd is not in line with anything we believe regarding that kind of communication happening IN OUR DAY. The way Jehovah communicates with us today is through the Bible.

2 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

As for Brother Albert, I do not care if he feels he gets special communication from the spirit realm any more than I would question if he claimed to be one of the anointed.

I wouldn’t care either, except I’d think he was a little cuckoo. We have a sister in our hall who claims she is of the anointed. Sometimes she walks through the aisles during the meeting  and says she is “working”. She will go up to people while they are having a conversation and tell them  she has had a communication from heaven telling her such and such....I forget  what  plethora of things. She doesn’t like me.  I can feel her eyes boring into the back of my head every now and again. Apparently, in one of her conversations with the heavenly realms I have been judged unworthy. But then again so has our overseer, and he is a super nice guy.... so I might still stand a chance...

Otherwise she seems quite normal

30 minutes ago, Gone Fishing said:

Akin? Except that it is unlikely there is an angel Moroni. I have my doubts about the existence of the gold plates as well.

I know, a slight exaggeration on my part. But the point that I was trying to make is that this kind of thing no longer happens, regardless whether there is an angel  Moroni  or not. To me it's as bad as saying one of the anointed in heaven (who DO exist) communicating with one of the anointed on earth.  We are not like the Mormons or any other religion who believes in this kind of thing happening now. That’s why I find that WT statement unique, and totally out of character. In fact, it has probably made some friends believe that the anointed on earth (the Slave in particular) have some kind of direct line to Jehovah whereby they receive instructions directly from the heavenly realm, and then being stumbled when they find out this cannot be the case because if it were, they wouldn’t be making the mistakes they do.  This is why the Slave deemed it necessary to remind the flock that they are neither inspired nor infallible, whereby communication from the heavenly realm, in the sense we have been discussing, is included I assume....

1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

'm in i'm in!      Wait.................... which generation is this for? 

Well I'm assuming it's the 23rd of this month this year so it appears no one living today will be left out!

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Ah. Here it is:

http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2017/09/20/september-23-end-of-world-theory/

 

Oh wow, the Egyptian pyramids are back!

1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

Do you believe the overlapping generation ? What is your opinion? 

I have discussed this under the appropriate topic already. My opinion is the overlapping generation makes no sense, and it doesn't make sense to quite a number of other Witnesses either. On the other hand, it does makes sense to quite a number too, and I am not going to argue with them. Opinion is opinion after all.....

11 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

Tell me how the overlapping generation is a matter of personal opinion? 

Didn't everyone think those old folks on the cover of that mag were not going to die? This was doctrine. Then it became those who were alive and could perceive the events of that time would not die. Next it was those who were born then would not die, and now it includes people not even in the same generation? how absurd. I can dig up the wt references if you'd like. 

It's ok, you dot need to dig up any references, I'm quite familiar with the ins and outs of this subject. However, I thought we were talking about being pushed out if you don't believe the overlapping generation theory.  You are still misunderstanding me though. I was saying that the overlapping generation theory IS an opinion.