Anna

24 minutes ago, The Librarian said:

Look for this area below:

Where is one supposed to look?? I can't see anything like this...

11 minutes ago, SuziQ1513 said:

 castrate them

Not quite this, but there are discussions whether medication to suppress sexual desires could work.

Here is another interesting article: https://www.health.harvard.edu/newsletter_article/pessimism-about-pedophilia

9 minutes ago, SuziQ1513 said:

I do think a victim should be able to have someone in a supportive role with them when they meet with the Elders.

This is the case now. I will try and dig up the latest child protection policies of Jehovah's Witnesses if you haven't seen them yet.

21 hours ago, SuziQ1513 said:

I have to admit I didn't read all of the info that Anna and Ann plus others have submitted, but the article (submitted above) about what a child molester looks like :

 http://www.childmolestationprevention.org/pages/tell_others_the_facts.html#georges_story    

rang true with my step-father (of 50+years - not a JW, married, good income, white) who abused my daughter and youngest son.  Back in the late 70s my daughter was about 3yo, I caught him picking her up by putting one hand between her legs and the other under her armpit.  I immediately went to him, firmly told him not to do that anymore.  My daughter who is now in her 40s claims she can still remember the feeling. 18 yrs later, I relied on my parents for childcare since I had become a single mother and couldn't afford daycare when my son was small.   (Both parents were retired at this time.) The abuse began at about 4-5yrs old thru teen yrs.   The abuser was so clever, I had no idea for which I have felt deeply guilty.  We would sit at family meals (the 4 of us) and the abuser could act like nothing was wrong.  My son was weighed down with threats and so remained silent.  I thought he was just moody.  I didn't find out until my son was 23yrs old when he finally told me.  By this time his abuser was dead.  My son has left the Truth since he claims he is now Gay.  What the abuser takes freely for selfish reasons has a huge cost to others.  They are clever and cunning.   Good people just don't think the same way perverts do.  You just don't want to accuse someone of such serious crime.  Education is important and it's unfortunate we can't trust anyone.   Children (under 10yo) are now abusing younger children and the government can't do a darn thing about it because of their age.  This whole thing is such a mess.  They need to castrate the B______ds (crude, I know).  

I have a RV with an ex-member of the FLDS polygamist group (their leader is in jail for life for sex abuse) and I fear doing an internet search will put them off from learning more from the Bible.   I have stopped donating for the ww work because so much money is going to these settlements.  I donate to the KH and if they send money to the HQ, that's their business.  I feel I should write to the HQ and let them know, maybe that will get them to be more transparent.  I came across a quote from the Dali Lama the other day:  "A lack of transparency results in distrust and a deep sense of insecurity."  I would send that but I think they would disregard it given the source.  I pray to Jehovah that he will direct Jesus to handle this matter quickly and with great wisdom.   I pray for the victims and for protection for all children, JW or not.  May we all maintain our joy and peace in these troubled times.  Love to all.  

 

Suzi, thank you for sharing your story.

21 hours ago, SuziQ1513 said:

  Good people just don't think the same way perverts do.  You just don't want to accuse someone of such serious crime.

This is the crux of the problem I think, that is why I posted that article you mention. It wasn't to excuse the perpetrators of course, but to excuse those who naively believed a child was safe with them (the perpetrator). As you say, good people just don't think the way perverts do, and that was my argument with regard to Candace Conti, that the elders (despite knowing about one incidence with his step daughter) just did not believe that the perpetrator (Kendrick) would ever do anything like that again. He did. He molested Candace. Then after Candace, he molested his new wife's grandchild. The elders had no idea about any of this. They only found out when Candace confronted them with it years later.....

You also had no idea about your step father, you blame yourself for it, but as you see, you are a good person, who just couldn't imagine that anyone could be capable of anything like that....

The adage should be: "once a child molester, always a child molester". HOWEVER, this is not entirely compatible with scripture, and with the idea that people can change. This is the attitude we Witnesses try to take. BUT, at the same time it needs to be recognized that pedophilia is a real clinical case, almost a disease, that has to be fought like an addiction to alcohol. Is a cure possible? Not entirely, as an alcoholic has to abstain for the rest of his life otherwise he will revert. The same with a pedophile, he cannot ever be trusted around children, until in the new system.

3 hours ago, bruceq said:

And being most translated is a given for the True Religion 

Yes, I fully agree with you, one should expect that

 

3 hours ago, bruceq said:

Even in "Catholic" countires like Italy!!!  

Actually JWs in Italy are one of the largest religions after the Catholics

54 minutes ago, J.R. Ewing said:

. People like "ANNA" believe the governing body was comprised to hold everyone's hand. Did Jesus? Did the Apostles? NO! they gave instruction!!!!!!!

Yes, instruction is fine, but with this instruction comes honesty. For years we have bashed the Catholic church for shutting their eyes to child sexual molestation. Although our situation is different to that of the Catholic church,  we are not immune to those in authority using their position to get away with such things as child molestation, wife beating etc. Although not prolific like opposers would make out, still, in the words of our own organization "one molested child is one too many". The facts are; there have been elders and ministerial servants who have sexually molested children, and who have got away with it for a long time because no one would believe something like this could ever happen in our organization, after all we ARE Jehovah's organization! I do not believe the GB should hold our hands, just admitting this problem does exist in Jehovah's organization would suffice. Sooner or later this admission will be made, but the longer it's evaded, the worse the results will be as there will be a lot of publishers who will wonder why this information has been withheld for so long.....

4 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

Nah.

Nice to know JWs are not in the top 10 cults of America either

https://www.toptentopia.com/the-10-most-famous-cults-in-united-states-history/

P.S. But funnily enough there is a suggestion in the comments by a number of people saying they should be included. A little bit of bias there perhaps?

7 hours ago, bruceq said:

, "Who go to heaven", "What happens when you die", "Why does God allow suffering" and so forth...JW.ORG came up FIRST in all these searches

True, one reason is because these are targeted questions, the kind of questions not necessarily asked by the general public, but mainly the questions WE, Jehovah's Witnesses ask the public to think about. To illustrate, if I was a random person, (someone perhaps who has never heard about Jehovah's Witnesses) and I begun to be conscious of a spiritual need, I might wonder where to begin. I might google "getting to know god" .  This search brings up various Christian denominations from the Christadelphians to the Mormons. JWs do not appear even after 3 pages (I didn't look any further). The same results come up after searching for "ways to praise god"  "how to find god"  and "where can I find god".  On the other hand questions such as "Truth about god"  and "Who is god" brings up JWs as the first entry. “Who are true Christians” brings up  6 “Christian websites” first, and  7th one is ours with the slightly curious heading “Origin of the Cross—Why True Christians Do Not Use the Cross”.

8 hours ago, bruceq said:

 WORLDWIDE, the most popular religious website out of 100,000 as of 2017 is now JW.ORG.

Interestingly, according to  this website  the percentage of traffic directed from search is 13.40%.  It is a lot higher in some of the other sites. But it’s pretty cool that we rank  number 1 especially as the most translated website.  We probably also still rank number 1 for most widely distributed magazine in the world (WT 1^st, Awake 2^nd)

Very interesting so far JWInsider. Enjoying reading your analysis.

I got into a discussion once with a "Bible Student" and he wanted to know the difference between Christ's coming (to execute final judgement) and his parousia (the invisible extended period of time prior to that). He said it was one and the same thing. It does get kind of confusing when Jesus apparently "came" in 1918...

I'm sure you are aware of the July 2013 WT, where the writers attempted to explain the new understanding.  (I realise this is bringing another element into the equation, namely the faithful and discreet slave)

¹⁶ Regarding the faithful and discreet slave, Jesus says: “Happy is that slave if his master on arriving [“having come,” ftn.] finds him doing so.” In the parable of the virgins, Jesus states: “While they were going off to buy, the bridegroom arrived [“came,” Kingdom Interlinear].” In the parable of the talents, Jesus relates: “After a long time the master of those slaves came.” In the same parable, the master says: “On my arrival [“having come,” Int] I would be receiving what is mine.” (Matt. 24:46; 25:10, 19, 27) To what time do these four instances of Jesus’ coming refer?

¹⁷ In the past, we have stated in our publications that these last four references apply to Jesus’ arriving, or coming, in 1918. As an example, take Jesus’ statement about “the faithful and discreet slave.” (Read Matthew 24:45-47.) We understood that the “arriving” mentioned in verse 46 was linked to the time when Jesus came to inspect the spiritual condition of the anointed in 1918 and that the appointment of the slave over all the Master’s belongings occurred in 1919. (Mal. 3:1) However, a further consideration of Jesus’ prophecy indicates that an adjustment in our understanding of the timing of certain aspects of Jesus’ prophecy is needed. Why so?

 ¹⁸ In the verses that lead up to Matthew 24:46, the word “coming” refers consistently to the time when Jesus comes to pronounce and execute judgment during the great tribulation. (Matt. 24:30, 42, 44) Also, as we considered in  paragraph 12, Jesus’ ‘arriving’ mentioned at Matthew 25:31 refers to that same future time of judgment. So it is reasonable to conclude that Jesus’ arrival to appoint the faithful slave over all his belongings, mentioned at Matthew 24:46, 47, also applies to his future coming, during the great tribulation. * Indeed, a consideration of Jesus’ prophecy in its entirety makes it clear that each of these eight references to his coming applies to the future time of judgment during the great tribulation.

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/w20130715/jesus-prophecy-last-days/

I am looking forward to what your final conclusion is, summarized in just a few paragraphs I hope!

12 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

"Openly consort to believe"?

Hahahahaahaaaaaa.

Gimmee a break!

What does that even mean?

It's Allen Smith speak

@James Thomas Rook Jr. Hebrews 10:26-29 explains further: "For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left  but there is a certain fearful expectation of judgment and a burning indignation that is going to consume those in opposition.  Anyone who has disregarded the Law of Moses dies without compassion on the testimony of two or three. How much greater punishment do you think a person will deserve who has trampled on the Son of God and who has regarded as of ordinary value the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and who has outraged the spirit of undeserved kindness with contempt?"

And 2 Peter 2: 20-22:  "Certainly if after escaping from the defilements of the world by an accurate knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they get involved again with these very things and are overcome, their final state has become worse for them than the first. It would have been better for them not to have accurately known the path of righteousness than after knowing it to turn away from the holy commandment they had received. What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog has returned to its own vomit, and the sow that was bathed to rolling in the mire.”

Self explanatory I would say

15 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

If the tone has turned comedic, it is because this is at root a farce with a decidedly tragic outcome

I find that once we have covered all there is to cover about a certain subject some of us (me included) resort to silliness as a way of concluding and signalling that anything else added will probably just be blah blah. But on that note, and contrary to what I have just said (lol) I would like to add a couple of things which no one explicitly mentioned although it was alluded to by True Tom, and that is the amateur awfulness of the actual website that this information came from. I have seen many an apostate website, but this must be one of the craziest.

I watched one of the videos on there; a demonstration outside a KH on memorial night, and one of the demonstrators holding up a banner with Jesus’ words at John 6:52 ““Most truly I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in yourselves” was  being interviewed and asked why this was her favourite scripture. With a passionate voice, barely choking back the tears, she replied “because Jehovah’s Witnesses are meeting all over the world...and there’s very, very few people who will be partaking.... because they have been told not to. They are kept out of heaven! I want them to see that it’s ok, that Jesus said we should do it. Please do it”. Is that one of the “truths” that is being revealed*? Oh please! (Of course there were other banners including "child abuse" but all the comments were just as uninformed).

Of course people are entitled to their opinion. But that website is the most awful, uninformed and boring thing I’ve ever seen.  Not worth looking or listening to as there is very little that’s even relevant. It’s just filled with opinionated nonsense, and for someone to take their life over it, THAT is the real tragedy!

To top it all, the caption on their front page says:

“Our mission is to expose the real truth* behind the destructive cult known as the Jehovah's Witnesses. Active Witnesses are discovering the real "truth" and are now realizing that there is life after The Watchtower”.

What does that even mean? (rhetorical question that doesn’t need answering) But isn't that ironic? For that young woman there was evidently no life after the Watchtower......

I can up vote my own comments too!! Look!! Maybe I will post a bikini shot of myself next! 

3 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

I agree.

Signed,

Allen Smith

That's the first time I've seen you up voting your own comment 

58 minutes ago, J.R. Ewing said:

No more than anyone here.

However, personalities are invented constantly to agree with each other. One setup the question, the same one by sub accounts answers it. It's not that hard. And then comes the same likes!!!!!!

You must be Allen Smith then

I know this is you pet subject @JW Insider . Maybe you should send this to the writing department at HQ .

I look forward to reading more when time allows,  and perhaps contributing my tuppence worth 

35 minutes ago, AllenSmith said:

Until government accepts responsibility for failed policies and laws? How can religion compete with proven social failures? Many of the past regulations and laws are still found in every STATE, even today.

However, I have yet to hear the Governing Body blame a “Victim” for any heinous crime perpetrated by someone with a sick mind, as other religions upper echelon has done in the past.

Also, NOT every Elder think alike, and can’t be placed in the same barrel as the unwise. Yet, I have seen countless of times, when Elders actually went against the prevailing social laws to see justice was rendered NOT only in a court of law but also to keep the Christian Congregation clean.

Why, doesn’t the NEWS make light of those cases. It wouldn’t be news worthy!!!!!!!!!

The man's lawyer asked Cunningham whether, in the eyes of the church, a child molested by a priest has committed a sin.

"The boy is culpable," Cunningham said Oct. 14, 2011, according to a transcript of the deposition.

His sworn testimony provides rare insight into the thoughts of the highest-ranking Catholic in Syracuse about one of the most troubling chapters in the church's history.

http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2015/09/victims_partly_to_blame_in_priest_sex-abuse_cases_syracuse_bishop_testified.html

 

California evidence code 1030 1034

1030.  As used in this article, a "member of the clergy" means a

priest, minister, religious practitioner, or similar functionary of a

church or of a religious denomination or religious organization.

1031.  As used in this article, "penitent" means a person who has

made a penitential communication to a member of the clergy.

1032.  As used in this article, "penitential communication" means a

communication made in confidence, in the presence of no third person

so far as the penitent is aware, to a member of the clergy who, in

the course of the discipline or practice of the clergy member's

church, denomination, or organization, is authorized or accustomed to

hear those communications and, under the discipline or tenets of his

or her church, denomination, or organization, has a duty to keep

those communications secret.

1033.  Subject to Section 912, a penitent, whether or not a party,

has a privilege to refuse to disclose, and to prevent another from

disclosing, a penitential communication if he or she claims the

privilege.

1034.  Subject to Section 912, a member of the clergy, whether or

not a party, has a privilege to refuse to disclose a penitential

communication if he or she claims the privilege.

 

Evidence Code - EVID

DIVISION 8. PRIVILEGES [900 - 1070]

  (Division 8 enacted by Stats. 1965, Ch. 299.)

CHAPTER 4. Particular Privileges [930 - 1063]

  (Chapter 4 enacted by Stats. 1965, Ch. 299.)

 

ARTICLE 8. Clergy Penitent Privileges [1030 - 1034]

  (Heading of Article 8 amended by Stats. 2002, Ch. 806, Sec. 18.)

 

1030.

  As used in this article, a “member of the clergy” means a priest, minister, religious practitioner, or similar functionary of a church or of a religious denomination or religious organization.

(Amended by Stats. 2002, Ch. 806, Sec. 19. Effective January 1, 2003.)

1031.

  As used in this article, “penitent” means a person who has made a penitential communication to a member of the clergy.

(Amended by Stats. 2002, Ch. 806, Sec. 20. Effective January 1, 2003.)

1032.

  As used in this article, “penitential communication” means a communication made in confidence, in the presence of no third person so far as the penitent is aware, to a member of the clergy who, in the course of the discipline or practice of the clergy member’s church, denomination, or organization, is authorized or accustomed to hear those communications and, under the discipline or tenets of his or her church, denomination, or organization, has a duty to keep those communications secret.

(Amended by Stats. 2002, Ch. 806, Sec. 21. Effective January 1, 2003.)

1033.

Subject to Section 912, a penitent, whether or not a party, has a privilege to refuse to disclose, and to prevent another from disclosing, a penitential communication if he or she claims the privilege.

(Amended by Stats. 2002, Ch. 806, Sec. 22. Effective January 1, 2003.)

1034.

Subject to Section 912, a member of the clergy, whether or not a party, has a privilege to refuse to disclose a penitential communication if he or she claims the privilege.

(Amended by Stats. 2002, Ch. 806, Sec. 23. Effective January 1, 2003.)

2005 California Evidence Code Sections 1030-1034 Article 8. Clergy Penitent Privileges

EVIDENCE CODE
SECTION 1030-1034

1030.  As used in this article, a "member of the clergy" means a

priest, minister, religious practitioner, or similar functionary of a

church or of a religious denomination or religious organization.

1031.  As used in this article, "penitent" means a person who has

made a penitential communication to a member of the clergy.

1032.  As used in this article, "penitential communication" means a

communication made in confidence, in the presence of no third person

so far as the penitent is aware, to a member of the clergy who, in

the course of the discipline or practice of the clergy member's

church, denomination, or organization, is authorized or accustomed to

hear those communications and, under the discipline or tenets of his

or her church, denomination, or organization, has a duty to keep

those communications secret.

1033.  Subject to Section 912, a penitent, whether or not a party,

has a privilege to refuse to disclose, and to prevent another from

disclosing, a penitential communication if he or she claims the

privilege.

1034.  Subject to Section 912, a member of the clergy, whether or

not a party, has a privilege to refuse to disclose a penitential

communication if he or she claims the privilege.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priest%E2%80%93penitent_privilege#Federal_rule

 

According to New York state law, confessions and confidences made to a clergyman or other minister are privileged and cannot be used as evidence. This privilege is not limited to communications with a particular kind of priest or congregant, and it is not confined to statements made "under the cloak of confession". What matters is that the conversations were of a spiritual nature, were confidential enough to indicate that the penitent intended that they be kept secret, and that the penitent did not waive the privilege subsequently.

2012 New York Consolidated Laws

CVP - Civil Practice Law & Rules

Article 45 - (4501 - 4548) EVIDENCE

4505 - Confidential communication to clergy privileged.

Universal Citation: NY CPLR § 4505 (2012)

 

    § 4505.  Confidential communication to clergy privileged. Unless the

  person confessing or confiding waives the privilege, a clergyman, or

  other minister of any religion or duly accredited Christian Science

  practitioner, shall not be allowed disclose a confession or confidence

  made to him in his professional character as spiritual advisor.

 

 

 

RULE 505: Communications to members of Clergy

Texas Rules of Evidence

A member of the clergy” is a minister, priest, rabbi, accredited Christian Science Practitioner, or other similar functionary of a religious organization or an individual reasonably believed so to be by the person consulting with such individual.

(2) A communication is “confidential” if made privately and not intended for further disclosure except to other persons present in furtherance of the purpose of the communication.

(b) General Rule of Privilege. A person has a privilege to refuse to disclose and to prevent another from disclosing a confidential communication by the person to a member of the clergy in the member’s professional character as spiritual adviser.

 

 

 

(c) Who May Claim the Privilege. The privilege may be claimed by the person, by the person’s guardian or conservator, or by the personal representative of the person if the person is deceased.  The member of the clergy to whom the communication was made is presumed to have authority to claim the privilege but only on behalf of the communicant.

 

 

 

    Texas Rules of Evidence

    CCP Article 42.12

I don't see what clergy penitence privileges has anything to do with what's under discussion. If a person has reasonable suspicions that a child may be in danger, or if there is evidence that the child has already been a victim, then that person can go to the police, regardless of any confession by the perpertraitor. But really, the other problem is, lack of transparency that WE  have a problem at all, regardless how small in comparison, in our own words "one molested child is one too many". 

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

Was this from one of those books, or a later interview?

It was from his second book, which like you, I merely skimmed over, but I seem to recall that particular part whenever issues about reporting field service and "legalism"  come up, since he devotes an entire chapter to that subject.

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

The reason I ask is that when you first mentioned the "free riders" I was about to respond to the following quote (see quote below) with just "Interesting theory."

Actually, the idea and the term I got from an essay by Rodney Stark and some other guy. I don’t think the authors had your interpretation in mind (“ that these were the ones who rose to the very top of the food chain at Bethel, and I don't mean the "spiritual" food chain” ) They were referring more to someone who is not entirely serious about the religion especially the spiritual side of it. But what you say is interesting and unfortunately, as your experience shows, true.

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Also, the current brothers who are named "Helpers" of the Governing Body, well, most of these were working their way up the bureaucratic and political ladders at Bethel in 1980 and the personality similarities among many of them. I shouldn't say, so I won't.

Ahem.....I hope you are wrong. I hope their climb was a spiritual one,  because by your own admission you say that things have changed for the better in the last 20 years.  I have my favourites in the “helpers”, although I don’t know them personally, they seem like good genuine brothers.

On 7/24/2017 at 1:17 PM, ComfortMyPeople said:

I have witnessed (as secretary) the brother's embarrassment when delivering a very low report, only that month had problems.

Hahaha, just a couple of weeks ago, when reporting my hours for last month to our group elder (a good friend as well) I told him how embarrassing my report was. I wasn't beating myself up over it though,  I had my parents in town and there just wasn't the time like usual as we were making day trips to show them around etc. He told me his weren't much better as he had been on vacation for two weeks

On 7/24/2017 at 0:52 PM, JW Insider said:

Similar to what @PeterR said, my opinions are expressed here as a "thought experiment" for anyone to consider and respond to.

Maybe I just couldn’t see the point of this experiment.....all I see is what I have already read from some ex-JWs , especially one  ex GB member  who made it seem like reporting field service created selfish, status climbing, bureaucratic butt kissers (pardon the expression). He was right to a small extend, this did apply to a few, but for the most part, those few are no longer JWs . If you are "slaving" for Jehovah for the wrong reason, it doesn’t last. You don't need to see what would happen if you stopped reporting, true motives become apparent sooner or later regardless. That was my point.

On 7/24/2017 at 0:52 PM, JW Insider said:

 but counting hours is not the only motivation in keeping up the "status" of being a pioneer. It's the accolades from men that go with the title. The same could also be said of appointed elders, and ministerial servants, and the various types of overseers in the organization

Yes, I agree,  and it does get on my nerves when I hear such expressions as  “so many years in time in full time service" etc. as if these persons are somehow better than someone who is like the widow. But we all know that is not true. If we place too much stock on what others think then obviously that is foolish, because it is ultimately what Jehovah thinks that counts, and he knows our hearts and circumstances. Those who elevate themselves or others because of "titles" well, that's their problem....in the end they too will stand in front of Jehovah and render an account, regardless of what title they have.

20 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I couldn't know what motivations  @PeterR or you or anyone else might have. But I can say that what I said is (to me) merely a truism about legalism, and has nothing to do with taking it easy as you state. Also, I don't recommend that people stop reporting the types of service that help others prepare useful and appropriate publications, convention material, encouragement from circuit overseers, talks about local needs, etc. If you think you'll need 100 magazines next month in service, you should order 100 magazines; if you think you will need 10, order 10. Even in the days when we paid directly in advance for all the publications, I'd still see some Witnesses with rooms stacked with unused magazines and books. The specific need for printed material is no longer a big factor, as we are encouraged to make more use of electronic formats. (In some countries, more than others.)

Obviously, we could also take it too far and forbid the reporting of our service to others, too, but this could end up being just another form of legalism. Our motivation for reporting our time and experiences might be purely meant as an encouragement for others who have trouble finding the time, or our motivation for reporting could be out of the pure joy of reporting on experiences in our ministry that make our sacrifice of time worthwhile. (Remember the joy that Jesus expressed when the 70 evangelizers returned to tell about what kinds of experiences they had just had. Giving a good report can be a matter of encouragement or just a matter of the mouth speaking out of the "abundance of the heart" -- not just preaching, but telling fellow Christians about our experiences in preaching.)

However, the methods by which a "placement" or even a "return visit" can be counted have now made some of these reports mean less because people would be comparing Apple iPads to oranges. The differences in what some elders or family heads might count as a "Bible Study" might also be quite different from what the average pioneer will count. TTH is right that these numbers are not used in such a way that each congregation member knows who is more active than others, except by actual observation while working with others in the ministry, and by a couple of different level pioneer titles. Neither are they used at levels higher than a circuit overseer, in any form other than the aggregate. Other forms of "full-time" service might come with little or no field service, although there is overlap in the use of the "title." My brother, for example, was on a project at Bethel where Brother Wisegarver asked him if he could work 6 days a week for at least 4 months, and skip all his meetings except Sunday. I know several elders whose work on regional building committees kept them from almost anything else for several months at a time, and some have preferred it that way.

My point is that the Law included measurements and even certain threshold requirements to meet the Law correctly. We SHOULD be working purely from proper motivation, but this will not be true of everyone. This is why the Law was necessary as a tutor. But our ministry that is pure from the standpoint of 'our God and Father' MUST include a lot of ministry that is not currently counted as "sacred" service, even if Jesus counts it as "sacred" service. (Looking after orphans and widows, for example.) I do think that if proper motivation is what is explained and encouraged at all meetings, then most of us would rebalance our ministries toward the other forms of service that Jesus counts as sacred. But we would also be looking for more opportunities to buy out more effective time in all our ministries, making time count rather than looking for ways to count time.

My comments about the legalism behind the reports and titles might have sounded discouraging, but it's not so that anyone would do less, or lose their motivation. It's so that whatever we do is a JOY because of the motivation. The points about legalism include the confusion that most immature Christians have about being rewarded for "works." These legalistic ideas are really more obvious when we look at the history of the ways quotas and counting time and placements has worked since Rutherford's time. A quick reading of old Bulletins, Informants, Messengers, Kingdom Ministrys, Convention reports, etc., will make it clear what I mean by legalism in the sense that the apostle Paul spoke out so strongly against. I won't try to prove it here.

But I would agree that we have also moved toward a more sensible and balanced view of time to remove the common "burdensome" nature of counting time and placements.

I guess I was asking for this (your long post - just kidding! )

Sorry, I always seem get suspicious when people start objecting to reporting field service.  Thank you for explaining.  It would be dishonest of me to claim that there is never a problem such as you or Peter have mentioned. I think we are all aware that there are those who just go out to count hours etc. But I have never known a pioneer to last more than a few years just counting hours. If that was the only motivation. Because naturally there cannot be any JOY just counting hours. But to view field service as a Christian duty, and if time and circumstances permit, to do that duty full time, then I don’t see that as a problem. There are duty bound instructions in the Greek scriptures ; you must love your wife as your own body, (even if you can’ stand the sight of her, and hate your body), you must love your neighbour (even if you couldn’t care less about anyone because you are a hermit by nature). Although Jesus instructions to make disciples is not prefixed by a must, it is evidently a command. But it’s not easy for some to come out of their comfort zone and talk to complete strangers.

I think we are unnecessarily placing too much importance on the question of “legality” because really, when we get down to the grass roots, if someone is only concerned with doing things to the “letter” but his doing so is not linked to faith, then that person will eventually fail and will end up with no faith.  However, if we view “legality” as a means of keeping order, and not something that robs one of “Christian freedom” or as per Galatians 3, then we have the right attitude. This will separate the “free riders” from those who are genuine. The term “free rider” I have from an interesting article written by two non-Witnesses in the Journal of Contemporary Religion. Essentially, free riders eventually become nominal Witnesses at best, or totally inactive or disfellowshipped at worst. The authors make a good but obvious point: If free riders were not screened out, then we would have essentially the same situation that exists in all of Christendom’s religions, we would all end up nominal Witnesses (my words).  In any case, what I am trying to say is if we have a proper view of “legality” then this should not interfere with our whole souled service for the right reasons because we would have the "law" written on our hearts.

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

All is well. It caused me to scratch my head in non-recognition - a name, apparently a villainous one, and I never did get around to figuring out who it was. 

That was my fault I'm afraid. I shouldn't mention names in that context, especially not villainous ones. I will try not to do it again.

.

13 hours ago, PeterR said:

I'm simply pointing out the mindset and counter-productive fruits that can result by being constantly oriented in this way.

One thing is being constantly oriented in this way, and the other is merely using "numbers" as a guide. A good Elder is also a good Christian, and as a good Christian he will act in a Christian way, regardless of numbers.

Something tells me this discussion we’ve got going on here has much deeper significance than just having a tizzy over a few record cards and how elders respond to them. Surely we all agree that blowing ones trumpet is wrong, and condemned by Jesus on many occasions.  So really, it can’t be about that, otherwise it would be too obviously hypocritical. Numbers by themselves mean something, but not everything, and as JWI points out IF as a publisher, we are merely concerned with the hours we put in, then we are blowing our own trumpet and merely performing token service. There are some who actually are like that, but eventually this backfires. I've known a few pioneers who left the truth to lead a selfish life. Maybe they had just been concerned about numbers. But we also have to be honest and admit that usually if someone is spiritually low, then the first thing (with Jehovah's Witnesses) is that field service suffers because out of the heart's abundance the mouth speaks.

It was relatively easy for the disciples to be eager about spreading the word. They’d  witnessed Jesus’ resurrection, were filled with holy spirit and experienced divine support. Charged with immense zeal to tell everyone about Jesus, they made Christianity spread like wildfire. BUT, the situation today is entirely different. What motivation is there to do what they did? What motivation is there to make disciples of all nations? What motivation is there to preach the good news? Not much evidently since most members of Christendom’s churches either think that this work is done, or leave it to the pastor, and if they believe there is still room to save a few souls they do not go out and teach the people the truth about God and his purpose. They barely even lead a Christian life themselves.

So if reaching a certain amount of numbers, (besides the love of neighbour), is what initially motivates one to get out of bed and go out and preach, then what is wrong with that? I mean, who of us doesn't admit to occasional reluctance in going out in FS rather than shopping/ golfing/staying in bed etc. and then, and despite "wrong" motivation, being rewarded with a really good and productive call and being happy that we had made the effort, despite initial "wrong" motivation?

Therefore I cannot agree with this statement:

12 hours ago, JW Insider said:

The idea of a "pioneer" or "full-time servant" as opposed to a publisher is just another legalism based on a measure so that we are "noticed" for our gifts of mercy.

In fact, this is going the way of the sentiments of Carl Olof Jonsson, (and others) whose ideas are very similar to the rest of Christendom, and are a cop out contrary to Paul's admonition to Timothy and by extension any Christian:  "Preach the word; be at it urgently in favorable times and difficult times; reprove, reprimand, exhort, with all patience and art of teaching. For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the wholesome teaching, but according to their own desires, they will surround themselves with teachers to have their ears tickled. They will turn away from listening to the truth and give attention to false stories.  You, though, keep your senses in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelizer, fully accomplish your ministry"-  2Tim.4:2-5

So it seems this conversation has developed more into an excuse to take it easy as evangelizers, rather than whether it is right to record or not to record.

By the way,  I had a study with a lady who was amazed and impressed at the fact that every JW preaches the word, and for free! It was completely foreign to her since all she knew from her Church was organizing jumble sales (rummage sales) for charity. And that was their ministry. As a side issue, she also said that she had learned more from a few months studying the Bible with JWs than she had learned in 2 years in the church (she had previously been an atheist and "converted" because of a requirement to be able to adopt a child).