Anna

I think how wording in magazine is something as .... to the end of 20th century.
This including the year 2000 :))

Thanks for those references. I obviously must have read some of them, especially the ones from the 80's and I am aware that our mothers would say we would never go to school, that Armageddon would be here by then. This was nothing new to me since we were saying this almost since the founding of the JWS. What I was questioning was the specific date 2000. That Armageddon would come in that year, in the same way as was insinuated for 1975. "Within the 20th Century" is open, and just because 15 year old Samuel "visualizes something happening in 2000" doesn't mean we had to think it will happen exactly then, lol. Samuel is 48 today, probably with kids, maybe a grandad,  and probably still a JW. I know plenty of people who visualized something happening, and nothing happened, and they are still visualizing it. But, everyone in their right mind yearns for good things, and Jesus told his followers to "keep on the watch" and Peter "await and keep close in mind the presence of the day of Jehovah".  As for the society setting specific dates for the end, 1925 sticks in my mind, for which Rutherford apologized, and 1975, which was not official anyway. And 1914 of course....

Thanks for those references. I obviously must have read some of them, especially the ones from the 80's and I am aware that our mothers would say we would never go to school, that Armageddon would be here by then. This was nothing new to me since we were saying this almost since the founding of the JWS. What I was questioning was the specific date 2000. That Armageddon would come in that year, in the same way as was insinuated for 1975. "Within the 20th Century" is open, and just because 15 year old Samuel "visualizes something happening in 2000" doesn't mean we had to think it will happen exactly then, lol. Samuel is 48 today, probably with kids, maybe a grandad,  and probably still a JW. I know plenty of people who visualized something happening, and nothing happened, and they are still visualizing it. But, everyone in their right mind yearns for good things, and Jesus told his followers to "keep on the watch" and Peter "await and keep close in mind the presence of the day of Jehovah".  As for the society setting specific dates for the end, 1925 sticks in my mind, for which Rutherford apologized, and 1975, which was not official anyway. And 1914 of course....

This is not rocket science. Pay attention to existing court action. With rare exception it focuses on families in which there was child sexual abuse—often step-families—and elders are involved only in that it was not reported to authorities.
”Secondly. Mr Harley has no idea whatsoever, just how many JW 'leaders' are involved in CSA.“
I know it for everyone else, though. It is every case that comes to trial—and there are no end of them involving leaders of anything.
When was the last time you read of court action against a priest because there was child sexual abuse going on among a family of his parish and he did not stop it? 
When was the last time you read of the Boy Scouts getting sued because there was child sexual abuse going on in a Scout’s family and the Scoutleader did not stop it?
When what the last time you read of child sexual abuse involving the UN that centered around workers discovering CSA in a family and not reporting it?
This one is almost too stupid to answer. How can you be so childish?
“Shining as illuminators in the world” is also comparing Christians to the world. To acknowledge that within your ranks you have the same issues that afflict the rest of mankind, but that overall, they are far less serious (in not involving the leaders, whereas that is the pattern elsewhere) is hardly the evil that you make it out to be. 
It’s “The LORD.” Better get used to saying it. The only ones wanting anything to do with the Name is JWs, which you have left because it is not perfect. Get cracking on your replacement organization—you who have said that God could raise up a “genuine, pure” anointed within about ten years before the end comes. Shoot me a text when that has happened.

It's because they thought he was cured.

It's because they thought he was cured.

No. You are preoccupied with this, and @4Jah2me lives and breathes it. But anyone else takes into account that there is no sizable organization on earth where CSA is not an issue, and no one that is not being sued—and in most cases, it is the leaders who are the abusers, something very rare with JWs, whose leaders are just accused of not reporting.
Don’t misunderstand. I would rather that even that were not so, but it is considerably less serious than the leaders being the abusers. Most people can get their heads around that, out of 8 million people, not every single one will be blameless—especially since CSA is the scourge of the planet. Most people can also get their heads around clergy/penitent confidentiality, even if it is being legally reinterpreted, same as they have understood doctor/patient and lawyer/client privilege. I say the following only because I am addressing you, JTR, and I know your political leaning: Most ordinary Americans cannot quite get their heads around quid-pro-quo and if you explain it to them they are not quite sure why it is the huge deal Trump’s opponents make it out to be.
We’ll see how it turns out. It may be something to the Witness organization’s lasting shame. Or perhaps a sense of proportion will, in time, assert itself.
I do sometimes wish that there was a little more PR pushback from them. At present there is only a “we abhor child sexual abuse.” True enough, but in the face of court actions and vehement accusers, reporters go to where they can get a story. They can get one from accusers, but nothing specific from the defense, so they naturally gorge themselves on what the accusers have to say. That’s what reporters do.
There is a limit to how much you can malign people. The decency of Jehovah’s Witnesses is well-attested. They are not flower-selling robe dressers but they are neighbors and coworkers. True, they eat Bible sandwiches, but they are honest, industrious, law-abiding, and harmless. Usually when there are laudable people, it is understood to be because of their leaders, not despite them.
You hang out here too much, JTR, with people who are obsessed over this, in some cases people who are fervently hoping for an outcome detrimental to JWs. “Can’t see the forest for the trees” is the pit some fall into. Again, because of your political leanings—it is like media whipping people into a frenzy over Trump day after day, praying that every tiny development proves to be the torpedo that sinks him. From the moment of his election this has been the case—even from before his election. Close one Mueller investigation with not much to show for it, and immediately open another. 
At least half the country concludes that it is his enemies grasping at straws. 

Perhaps we can include general idea in human and in Bible context, how all have to be, to done something and so on:  "to the right extent, measure, quantity". Salt is good, but to put too much salt into meal will not be good. Patient is good, but too much patient not  necessary mean how things will be solved because we show patient till the day we die .....etc.
As i can recall we can find:
For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit (measure).  - John 3 34  
But we will not boast of things without our measure, but according to the measure of the rule which God hath distributed to us, a measure to reach even unto you. - 2 Cor 10 13
And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel. - Rev 21 17
 When they had crossed, Elijah said to Elisha, “Tell me, what can I do for you before I am taken from you?” “Let me inherit a double portion of your spirit,” Elisha replied. 10 “You have asked a difficult thing,” Elijah said, “yet if you see me when I am taken from you, it will be yours—otherwise, it will not.” - 2 King 2
We have here interesting descriptions. It seems how "measuring" and to be inside "measure" have correct logic and positive need, positive consequence. Of course, if lexically we have correct Bible text. 
Perhaps this is not very easy issue to discuss. So, why not go back to Topic. It is more real (actual) and it's easier to handle with the facts, evidences, proofs.....  :)))

The dopes. It is 7500 if it is a day.

It's holy molys of course!

It's holy molys of course!

It's holy molys of course!

I'm retired.
Hahahahahahaa

The spiritual food can only be what is in the Bible. But obviously, this is not what you’re talking about, but rather the interpretation of the Bible. The Bible says it’s good for setting things straight …so man of God is completely equipped for every good work.  This concerns the basic teachings, as you say: "To be good, not lie, love your neighbor, to preach Kingdom, not have idols ....and similar". If that was all there was, then it would be a much thinner book. I don’t know, what percent is here of the basic teachings? I have not looked into that, but let’s say it’s 50% of the Bible. So that leaves the other 50% that concern other things. Should we say that there is no use for that other 50%? What is for example the use of the book of Revelation? It’s a “A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place”. Would it be of any use unless it was understood? Verse five (of ch1) goes on to say: “Happy is the one who reads aloud and those who hear the words of this prophecy and who observe the things written in it, for the appointed time is near”. You can’t observe it unless you know what you are looking at.  That’s great because not only is it a highly symbolic book, but its chapters and verses are not always in chronological order! It’s a real challenge to interpret the riddles that are in it. Have the JWs done this perfectly. No, I don’t think so. We have changed how we understood a few things already, and some we still don’t understand. Does that mean we should stop trying to understand, and just ignore it? The same goes for the rest of the prophetic Bible books, such as Daniel etc. They are there for a reason. Does it mean JWs didn’t get enough holy spirit if they made mistakes in some interpretations?  Don’t forget the holy spirit does not work on our terms. God is perfectly in control of holy spirit and knows when and how much to give, it’s not up to us to judge. The Bible is full of examples where it appears that God’s servants were not getting help from God. Think about Joseph, all the things he had to go through before finally things worked out for him.
I would not expect it to say that. It would be out of character of all the other scriptures. It stands to reason that there should be a centralized system of direction. As you say, organizationally it’s doing very well, but your problem is with the spiritual aspect. Why should that be a problem though? Jesus said that the shepherds were to feed his sheep spiritually. It started of as one congregation. But now it’s thousands. You just have to look at it that the whole world of JWs is one big congregation, being fed by shepherds that happen to be in Warwick. You are putting too much emphasis on 8 imperfect men, whilst what you should be looking at is the arrangement which has a Biblical basis.  Congregations are not autonomous spiritually. All JWS are one big congregation. What about interpretation? There has to be a centralized tenet of belief. Otherwise no one would be able to identify Jehovah’s Witnesses by their beliefs. Every religion has their doctrine by which they can be identified. Jehovah’s Witnesses hope to have a doctrine based exclusively on the Bible, free of pagan influences, and as close to the 1st. century Christians as possible. As for complicated prophecies, well, that is a work in progress, but that should not be a deterrent. 

Both WT, January 2016, and January 2020 that talk about the anointed, applies to ALL the anointed, which includes the GB. There is no difference between them as regards their anointing, and how they should be treated. And, even how much holy spirit they get. Some will disagree with me on this, but in my opinion the GB do not receive any more, or any "special" type of holy spirit or insight than any other anointed, or anyone else for that matter. The Bible does not say the FDS anointed know more, all it says is that they are to provide timely spiritual food, which is already in the Bible, and dispense it to the others and to each other, since they are also "domestics".  Also they are not the only spokesmen for God. Anyone speaking the truth about God and Christ are also his spokespersons.

Totally agree Anna,  the GB receive just enough holy spirit for their tasks and in the congregations around the world many anointed are serving to strengthen and help others. They do not see themselves as leaders at all. I know of one who stepped down as an elder because his own family needed more attention. Females support the congregation in so many other ways teaching the younger women to have a spirit of service.  Jehovah us never unjust - never partial.  Many brothers under the anointed receive as much holy spirit as they do - if they pray for it.  
 
 

So, I've been mostly away from my computer for a few days, and it looks like this entire forum has been mashed up into a single thread/topic. I know that I was given the ability to move posts around to new threads, and I probably should have started to do that many days ago. (When I began I realized it was too late.)
But I also understand the simplicity (and short-term efficiency) of putting everything in the thread that people are actively participating in. In the longer-term, it's less efficient for those who need to go back and try to respond to things.
Since I think I'm getting in here at the tail end, I hoped to summarize a bit, and had hoped that Anna, Tom, Arauna, any "Allen Smith" alternative would have tired out AlanF so I could pretend to have delivered a final knock-out punch. But it keeps going and going with no end in sight. And there is no single topic on which one could hope to offer a "summary defense."
TTH, in spite of letting his tomfoolery characters get out of hand, has used them to point out so many of the areas where AlanF shows unnecessary antagonism, lack of empathy, and a lack of humor. He has also pointed out that AlanF's super-hypercritical view of JW leadership is also hypocritical in that an atheist should have no reason to pick on the spiritual and doctrinal beliefs of just one particular religion among hundreds. 
I like that Anna has picked up on some flaws in AlanF's reasoning. I think AlanF still argues against JW leadership from the FWF-era, especially the 1950's through the 1980's, when Anna and others have picked up on positive signs of transition, away from much of the dogmatism of that era. Slowly, I see some of the old arguments disintegrating, especially in moving a few of the events, once applied to 1918, 1919 and 1914, now being more correctly applied to the 1st century or the future judgment.
I like that Arauna has included some excellent points on intelligent design, some of which AlanF doesn't care to counter, but resorts to the trusty old ad hominem instead, either against Arauna or her sources.
Personally, I wish I could say more on the evolution/creation debate, but I've never tackled the relevant literature, and I can tell that even our own Writing Department has made enough mistakes in misquoting the relevant scientists that they aren't ready to fully tackle this topic either. However, I have a deep love for the Bible as God's Word, and the amazing consistency of the Bible books from first to last, and I have to wonder at the amazingly wide distribution of this particular book to every corner of the world. It's awe-inspiring. Because of this, I'll take "Pascal's wager," that even if we are of all men most to be pitied (if our faith is misplaced) we really have nothing to lose and much to gain if our faith puts us on God's side.
Besides, in the meantime, the true measure of Christianity is the activity that makes the world a better place and also makes us better individuals. We might even be better "neighbors" on random Internet forums, than those who reject Christian principles altogether.

Paul at Romans 14:4 was obviously not talking about the kind of judging that is to be done in order to keep the congregation spiritually and morally clean, as per:
"All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness" 2 Tim 3:16. .
 "For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do you not judge those inside, while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked person from among yourselves. 1 Cor 5:12,13
"Now I urge you, brothers, to keep your eye on those who create divisions and causes for stumbling contrary to the teaching that you have learned, and avoid them. Romans 16:17 
In order to do any of this there must be the ability to discern, or judge, who it applies to. And finally:
"Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over you as those who will render an account" Heb 13:7
 

I think it's because they just don't trust a man who carries a gun

Paul at Romans 14:4 was obviously not talking about the kind of judging that is to be done in order to keep the congregation spiritually and morally clean, as per:
"All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness" 2 Tim 3:16. .
 "For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do you not judge those inside, while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked person from among yourselves. 1 Cor 5:12,13
"Now I urge you, brothers, to keep your eye on those who create divisions and causes for stumbling contrary to the teaching that you have learned, and avoid them. Romans 16:17 
In order to do any of this there must be the ability to discern, or judge, who it applies to. And finally:
"Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over you as those who will render an account" Heb 13:7
 

Both WT, January 2016, and January 2020 that talk about the anointed, applies to ALL the anointed, which includes the GB. There is no difference between them as regards their anointing, and how they should be treated. And, even how much holy spirit they get. Some will disagree with me on this, but in my opinion the GB do not receive any more, or any "special" type of holy spirit or insight than any other anointed, or anyone else for that matter. The Bible does not say the FDS anointed know more, all it says is that they are to provide timely spiritual food, which is already in the Bible, and dispense it to the others and to each other, since they are also "domestics".  Also they are not the only spokesmen for God. Anyone speaking the truth about God and Christ are also his spokespersons.

I submit that TrueTomHarley and his multiple personalities are prima facie evidence of what long years in the JW cult can do to a person.

I had. Apparently you lack humour too 🙂

Oh really? You mean because they would protest outside HQ? Or they would write articles on the internet, like Pearl? Please, get real. Obviously, the GB are not afraid that some united body of anointed would pose a threat to them. The most they could do is form their own religion. If they were to act in an un-Christ like way, they would pose a threat to the peace and unity of the congregation, that is true. And if any anointed acted that way, then most Witnesses would very much doubt their anointing. I knew a few anointed in my life. A beautiful elderly couple in England, long passed now. They were our good friends. I do not remember them ever making extra effort to meet other anointed from other cities, (or even speaking about other anointed). In fact, the brother was our book study conductor for years, and he took good care of the group. That’s where his concentration was. To take care of the sheep assigned to him. He also had responsibilities as an elder, and he and his sweet wife, Gladys, had a number of Bible studies. They were far too busy caring for the spiritual needs of others to be concerned about meeting up with other anointed, who were probably just as busy doing the same. I do not understand your concern about the necessity of a physical unity. Isn’t a spiritual unity what Jesus had in mind? The anointed do not have to be physically together for them to be bonded. They are bonded in their mutual destiny. Besides, it would be rather impractical for them to get together, since most of them live far apart. I suppose you would like to see them get together at some kind of conventions only for the anointed? Keep the other sheep, the earthly class out? How segregatory and un-Biblical.
There you go judging for others again. I read it. Oh wait, I get it, it was just tit for tat. Are you a very young person? (Or am I just lacking humour?)