Anna

I am sorry, you misunderstood what I meant. I understand your concern about what the GB think, as they are supposed to be providing food at the proper time, and we are supposed to trust that this food is faultless. But sometimes it isn't. We know that although doing their best, the GB can still make mistakes. In that case, what is ultimately more important than what the GB says or thinks, is what Jehovah says and thinks. This is what I had in mind. By reading several related scriptures it becomes evident that the answer to your concern is that we have to leave it in Jehovahs hands, fully trusting that he is the reader of hearts and is perfectly just and loving, and would NEVER destroy anyone unjustly, even if in our opinion they did the most horrible things. So within this framework, it really doesn't matter what the GB think. Again I apologize, I really did not mean it to sound unloving, just factual. 
So when you mention that we have to be in line with the orgs. thoughts, yes, but first and foremost we have to be in line with Jehovah's thoughts.

Not if you take what they say as speculation on their part. Which is what I think it is. Anyone has the right to speculate. I have no qualms telling Br.Splane that I think his chart is based on speculation. And I'm sure he'd reply that that's my opinion. In which case he is right too. No harm done, we both have our opinion. It's not as if "the Generation" is a fundamental teaching required for salvation is it?

Not sure what you mean by principle. If it's not 1914 it could be1934, or even some other completely different date. Either way, calling whichever date as being part of the foundation of the organization is not important to me.
I am not interested in verbally rejecting this date. Who am I to do that? It's either right or wrong, time will tell soon enough and I am not going to lose sleep over it.
That I don't know. If someone is like a Beroean, or mindful of the apostle Paul's words regarding this subject, and knows their Bible, then they shouldn't have too much trouble.
" entice us into discussions of personal speculations or critical conversations"
There is a difference between personal speculations and leaving it there, and forming intense discussions around it as if we want to persuade others to see it our way. Unless it is something extremely important and true, which speculations are not, then who are we to push our personal ideas? As for the GB speculating, well they are in a role where they have assumed the provision of spiritual food. At the same time we are aware they can make mistakes. I shall leave it at that.

I haven’t seen him in a long while. It may be that Foreigner banned him.

I am sorry, you misunderstood what I meant. I understand your concern about what the GB think, as they are supposed to be providing food at the proper time, and we are supposed to trust that this food is faultless. But sometimes it isn't. We know that although doing their best, the GB can still make mistakes. In that case, what is ultimately more important than what the GB says or thinks, is what Jehovah says and thinks. This is what I had in mind. By reading several related scriptures it becomes evident that the answer to your concern is that we have to leave it in Jehovahs hands, fully trusting that he is the reader of hearts and is perfectly just and loving, and would NEVER destroy anyone unjustly, even if in our opinion they did the most horrible things. So within this framework, it really doesn't matter what the GB think. Again I apologize, I really did not mean it to sound unloving, just factual. 
So when you mention that we have to be in line with the orgs. thoughts, yes, but first and foremost we have to be in line with Jehovah's thoughts.

I would never denigrate human rights. I like those things. Life is easier when they are respected. But I prefer the term Golden Rule. It preserves all that is noble about human rights while discarding all that is pretentious. 
We are too short-sighted to properly use our human rights. Plus, our own bodies do not respect them, so can they really be called “rights?” In his day, Ronald Reagan was arguably the most influential person on earth. Ten years later, in the throes of Alzheimer’s, he didn’t know who he was. In this case, obedience to Christ will one day remedy this assault on our human right to unlimited life, limb, and health. Clearly this is the human right to focus upon, as we practice the golden rule.
Still, “human rights” is the buzzword today, not “golden rule,” so that is the game that must be played. It doesn’t always translate into a plus.
I wrote up an example some time ago. Mormons had succeeded in a California ban on gay marriage. In 2010, the ban was overturned and the judge sited a famous JW case:
“The reference by Judge Walker to West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette will have the Watchtower Society scratching their heads. “How did we help those wicked sons and daughters of Sodom and Gomorrah?” they will be asking themselves.
“To which I replied: “No they will not.”
“Well....... “It was never the intention of the intolerant Witness religion to grant any freedom of expression outside their own narrow view,” he asserts.
“Nor was it their intention to restrict any other group from benefiting from legal precedent they’ve established,” I replied.”
https://www.tomsheepandgoats.com/2010/09/proposition-8-mormons-jehovahs-witnesses-and-joel.html
Noble though the concept of human rights may be, the Bible doesn’t necessarily embrace them. Does it celebrate the human right of unlimited free speech? Sometimes it celebrates shutting people up:
“It is necessary to shut their mouths, because these very men keep on subverting entire households by teaching things they should not for the sake of dishonest gain.” (Titus 1:11)
I have no problem acknowledging “apostates” get some credit for this. I said so with regard to the May 2019 WT that reproach for CSA falls on the abuser, not the one who reports it.
https://www.tomsheepandgoats.com/2019/02/the-reproach-of-child-sexual-abuse-falls-on-the-abu.html
Everything in life is action/reaction, and the constant efforts of some of them have served to highlight an injustice. Once people leave the Christian organization, it is easy to lose track of them, and these “whistleblowers,” if they want to be called that, did not allow that to happen. In fact, for ones who stayed true in all other areas, they might afterwards resume their place and forever draw satisfaction from what contribution they have made. 
They rarely do, however. One of the most striking things about “apostates” is that they eventually throw EVERYTHING away. The unique combination of positive traits and beliefs that identify Jehovah’s Witnesses and Jehovah’s Witnesses alone—they discard it all.
 

Sorry for butting into your conversation, but I feel like I need to comment on this. I am assuming you are at a stage what ex JW's call "waking up" . This is very misleading though because it implies you have been asleep, and now, by finding out all the stuff they have to say, you are getting "real" facts, whereas really, all it is (in the majority of cases) is them letting go of spirituality, and embracing a me only attitude. If that is the way someone wants to go, then they will find many "excuses" which make this transition easier. These people are no longer concerned about what God thinks, this is why the large majority of them have become atheists, because that's so much easier; they don't have to take God into account in what they do in life at all. That's what it's really about. So don't be mislead in thinking you will find enlightment, unless of course you prefer to forget about God, in which case you will agree with everything they say. But if you are concerned about what God thinks, then do your research and you will find that Jehovah's Witnesses, despite their failings and mistakes, are the only true religion, or as even a die hard critic like JTR would say: "Jehovah's Witnesses are the only game in town". 

Thank you @Anna I totally agree with this point. 

I am sorry, you misunderstood what I meant. I understand your concern about what the GB think, as they are supposed to be providing food at the proper time, and we are supposed to trust that this food is faultless. But sometimes it isn't. We know that although doing their best, the GB can still make mistakes. In that case, what is ultimately more important than what the GB says or thinks, is what Jehovah says and thinks. This is what I had in mind. By reading several related scriptures it becomes evident that the answer to your concern is that we have to leave it in Jehovahs hands, fully trusting that he is the reader of hearts and is perfectly just and loving, and would NEVER destroy anyone unjustly, even if in our opinion they did the most horrible things. So within this framework, it really doesn't matter what the GB think. Again I apologize, I really did not mean it to sound unloving, just factual. 
So when you mention that we have to be in line with the orgs. thoughts, yes, but first and foremost we have to be in line with Jehovah's thoughts.

I am sorry, you misunderstood what I meant. I understand your concern about what the GB think, as they are supposed to be providing food at the proper time, and we are supposed to trust that this food is faultless. But sometimes it isn't. We know that although doing their best, the GB can still make mistakes. In that case, what is ultimately more important than what the GB says or thinks, is what Jehovah says and thinks. This is what I had in mind. By reading several related scriptures it becomes evident that the answer to your concern is that we have to leave it in Jehovahs hands, fully trusting that he is the reader of hearts and is perfectly just and loving, and would NEVER destroy anyone unjustly, even if in our opinion they did the most horrible things. So within this framework, it really doesn't matter what the GB think. Again I apologize, I really did not mean it to sound unloving, just factual. 
So when you mention that we have to be in line with the orgs. thoughts, yes, but first and foremost we have to be in line with Jehovah's thoughts.

This has nothing to do with anything except it IS on the topic of the thread—mentally ill:
I just read a reference—and I have never heard the nickname before—to Kim Jung Mentally Il Un

Well, aren't you the cynical one?

.... the problem with that is you have to have them with you.
Hmmmmmm.

I don't think they're hiding that we need money, (periodic reminders of how much things cost). I just think that sometimes creating new ways of saving money is put forward as a spiritual benefit, rather than what it is, a financial benefit. There's a rumour going round where I live that 25 elders have been demoted because they wouldn't cooperate with the arrangement. I wonder what was on the elders minds? The spiritual benefit, or the financial?
Interesting
@JW Insider let me illustrate what I mean, I have mentioned this on here before. After the fall of communism the brothers of one small town in Europe got together and with their own hands and own resources built a beautiful Kingdom Hall. The congregation was thriving well for the next 30 years. Then two years ago, one night at the midweek meeting, it was announced that the KH would be put on the market. No one knew anything about it and it came as a shock. There was a lot of upset, not only about the KH but also about the logistical aspects. There were many old timers there, who did not drive, and relied on the friends in the town to swing by and pick them up for the meeting. Now, the KH everyone was assigned to was 1 hour away.....
This is not an isolated case. I have heard of many other cases similar to this here in the US. We just had a married couple move into our hall for the same reason. They were given a choice where they wanted to go, but every KH was 2 hrs away, so they moved into our territory. It wasn't too much trouble for them as they are a young couple and both pioneers. Not so sure what the older ones did....by the way, the territory this pioneer couple lived in was very country. I guess now it will become one of those once a year worked territories.
PS. I wanted this last bit to be separate, but it still got merged with the previous reply...

Lol, no, just realistic 😀
I've learned in life, that most decisions, no matter how noble or spiritual they appear, revolve around sex or money or both. Now call me cynical, lol.

Well that is what I had in mind. I agree, we are not ready to have terms like this applied to us. That is why I think that kind of situation is "glossed over" with other terms, such as "Jehovah is guiding this" and "it's for our spiritual benefit to cooperate".
On the other hand, to be fair, I bumped into a couple of single sisters from said KH and they seemed to be pretty happy in their new one. But who knows what the reason is....new hunting grounds perhaps? 😀

I don't think they're hiding that we need money, (periodic reminders of how much things cost). I just think that sometimes creating new ways of saving money is put forward as a spiritual benefit, rather than what it is, a financial benefit. There's a rumour going round where I live that 25 elders have been demoted because they wouldn't cooperate with the arrangement. I wonder what was on the elders minds? The spiritual benefit, or the financial?
Interesting
@JW Insider let me illustrate what I mean, I have mentioned this on here before. After the fall of communism the brothers of one small town in Europe got together and with their own hands and own resources built a beautiful Kingdom Hall. The congregation was thriving well for the next 30 years. Then two years ago, one night at the midweek meeting, it was announced that the KH would be put on the market. No one knew anything about it and it came as a shock. There was a lot of upset, not only about the KH but also about the logistical aspects. There were many old timers there, who did not drive, and relied on the friends in the town to swing by and pick them up for the meeting. Now, the KH everyone was assigned to was 1 hour away.....
This is not an isolated case. I have heard of many other cases similar to this here in the US. We just had a married couple move into our hall for the same reason. They were given a choice where they wanted to go, but every KH was 2 hrs away, so they moved into our territory. It wasn't too much trouble for them as they are a young couple and both pioneers. Not so sure what the older ones did....by the way, the territory this pioneer couple lived in was very country. I guess now it will become one of those once a year worked territories.
PS. I wanted this last bit to be separate, but it still got merged with the previous reply...

The expression, I believe, is “fellowshopping.” They had disfellowshopped the old place out.

Lol, no, just realistic 😀
I've learned in life, that most decisions, no matter how noble or spiritual they appear, revolve around sex or money or both. Now call me cynical, lol.

Lol, no, just realistic 😀
I've learned in life, that most decisions, no matter how noble or spiritual they appear, revolve around sex or money or both. Now call me cynical, lol.

Well that is what I had in mind. I agree, we are not ready to have terms like this applied to us. That is why I think that kind of situation is "glossed over" with other terms, such as "Jehovah is guiding this" and "it's for our spiritual benefit to cooperate".
On the other hand, to be fair, I bumped into a couple of single sisters from said KH and they seemed to be pretty happy in their new one. But who knows what the reason is....new hunting grounds perhaps? 😀

“Bless you, my daughter.”
Lord, spare us from condescending people.

Yes, that is better put, and I have heard brothers say this. Of course we aren't going to hoard any money because we know what the scriptures say about that. But that wasn't really what I was talking about. It was more to do with it being Jehovah's direction. But then JWI will probably remind me that since we are a faith based organization, then anything we do will ultimately be seen as God's direction, even if something isn't.. I don't really have a problem with that. What I don't like seeing is this being used as some kind of tool to make people acquiesce, or as a kind of passive aggressive manipulation by some, or as a cause for being judgemental. ie. If you don't obey, you must be less spiritual than me. With so many unbalanced individuals around, this could cause unnecessary stress I think. What I'm trying to say is I would prefer if it was presented as it really is: a sound financial decision which "makes better use of donated funds" and in order for it to work, your cooperation and support is needed and appreciated, and thank you.  🙂
That’s not what I had in mind. In fact every Witness knows that the GB is not Jehovah. But they also know that the Bible talks about obeying those taking the lead, i.e. the elders in a congregation which includes members of the GB since they are also elders. Do you have something against that scripture?
I don't need your approval 🙂
 
 

Yes, that is better put, and I have heard brothers say this. Of course we aren't going to hoard any money because we know what the scriptures say about that. But that wasn't really what I was talking about. It was more to do with it being Jehovah's direction. But then JWI will probably remind me that since we are a faith based organization, then anything we do will ultimately be seen as God's direction, even if something isn't.. I don't really have a problem with that. What I don't like seeing is this being used as some kind of tool to make people acquiesce, or as a kind of passive aggressive manipulation by some, or as a cause for being judgemental. ie. If you don't obey, you must be less spiritual than me. With so many unbalanced individuals around, this could cause unnecessary stress I think. What I'm trying to say is I would prefer if it was presented as it really is: a sound financial decision which "makes better use of donated funds" and in order for it to work, your cooperation and support is needed and appreciated, and thank you.  🙂
That’s not what I had in mind. In fact every Witness knows that the GB is not Jehovah. But they also know that the Bible talks about obeying those taking the lead, i.e. the elders in a congregation which includes members of the GB since they are also elders. Do you have something against that scripture?
I don't need your approval 🙂
 
 

There should be Kingdom Halls on every street corner, like gas stations, only more so.