Anna

....when there's no rhyme or reason

This is actually good news for everyone because he is unlikely to be seen on the streets again.
And Thumbs up to the walesonline.co.uk people who seem to be able to present news about Jehovah's Witnesses in a fairly objective manner. https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/inside-biggest-annual-gathering-jehovahs-14991197
An interesting point relative to other postings on this, the judges statement: "The Jehovah's Witness was branded as "devious, righteous and arrogant", shows how errroneous is the claim that we think "only Jehovahs Witnesses will be saved".

....when there's no rhyme or reason

When you live in a frosted glass bubble, ANYONE's perspective on Life, the Universe and Everything is totally screwed up.
Yesterday at the Meeting, the visiting speaker called our attention to Ecclesiastes 12:13.
My wife looked it up as he was speaking.
I bent over to my wife, and whispered "Read 12:12".

It's a good job some of us still have the WT CDs! And I think I have the actual books somewhere in the basement. I remember the James book, my mom used it as a second book to study with a Bible study. Believe it or not , I have NEVER read it. So now of course I will have to!

I began to address this in a thread some time ago. As far as my status I mentioned this under another topic today:
I am a Witness. I still associate and preach regularly and maintain my congregational privileges. To avoid specific conflicts and contentions I requested some time ago that I be allowed to step down from former congregational privileges. On the question of why I didn't leave the organization, it's because I've never been asked to leave. I don't consider myself to be as "obedient and loyal" a Witness as others, but I see no reason to leave. There are hundreds of people in our brotherhood whom I love dearly, and I could not associate with them or do things for them if I chose to leave. I have no problem with the general intent and motivation of the organization, even if I see problems here and there. The problems certainly do not outweigh the good. It's not the religious organization that makes us Christian because we all stand on our own before Jehovah. Only if and when we are asked to obey men as ruler rather than God should we take a stand against the authority of men.
I was born and raised a Witness. I know that this illustration won't make sense to most Witnesses, but Paul said the following about the the outward appearances that can signify our religion to others, and he implies that the specifics that matter so much to others shouldn't matter so much to us personally.
(1 Corinthians 7:17-24) Nevertheless, just as Jehovah has given each one a portion, let each one so walk as God has called him. And so I give this directive in all the congregations. 18 Was any man already circumcised when he was called? Let him not undo his circumcision. Has any man been called while uncircumcised? Let him not get circumcised. 19 Circumcision means nothing, and uncircumcision means nothing; what means something is the observing of God’s commandments. 20 In whatever state each one was called, let him remain in it. 21 Were you called when a slave? Do not let it concern you; but if you can become free, then seize the opportunity. 22 For anyone who was called in the Lord when a slave is the Lord’s freedman; likewise anyone who was called when a freeman is a slave of Christ. 23 You were bought with a price; stop becoming slaves of men. 24 In whatever state each one was called, brothers, let him remain in it before God. If a person conscientiously feels that they are in a kind of servitude to men because of the religion, then they could seize the opportunity to get free, and I would not judge such a person, but would still want to help them maintain their spirituality. (But note that our true freedom is not our outward situation, but between ourselves and the Lord.) It's much easier to be a Christian with a loving brotherhood of Christians around us, related to us in the faith. Christianity is "social" and we need each other for encouragement and to continue to incite each other to good works toward one another. (Heb 10:24,25) I believe that the Witnesses provide this brotherhood. It's not specifically the doctrines, but it's the value we place on God's word, studying from it and teaching from it. The value placed on the Bible produces sensible faith-strengthening doctrines that honor God. It also helps us build a Christian character that can keep us free from the world's immorality, and free from the world's nationalism, conflicts and wars. With that in mind, I do not find it difficult to remain in the state I was called.

@JOHN BUTLER here is a recent case from the UK.  It seem that the authorities were the ones that delayed. This is a good example of the fact that reporting to authorities does not automatically assure success. You can read the whole article here:
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/devious-righteous-christian-raped-two-15274172
An "arrogant" Jehovah's Witness subjected two girls under the age of 13 to years of systematic assaults and rapes.
Roy Collins, 80, was branded as "devious, righteous and arrogant" by a judge at Swansea Crown Court.
He had spent a decade systematically grooming, abusing and raping the two girls.
At one point during his campaign of abuse, one of their mothers burst into the Jehovah's Witness church in Swansea and publicly accused him of being a paedophile only to receive a letter from his solicitors warning her not to harass him.
Carline Rees QC, for the prosecution, read out impact statements from the two victims.
One said she had lived with the abuse for years before telling her family.
When she did so, the news had a "devastating effect" on her mother.
She said the abuse had an "significant impact" on her life, adding: "Every day I am happy if I can just make it through".
In her statement, the second victim said the abuse had led to her have trouble at school and to start taking drugs to try to "block out" what was happening. She said her suffering and pain continues to this day.
The court heard that one of the victims made a complaint about Collins in the 1990s, but he was not prosecuted.
The allegations were reported to the police again in 2013 - but it took five years for the matter to come to court.
Judge Geraint Walters told the defendant that his actions during the 1980s and 90s had been "truly wicked".
He described Collins as a "devious, arrogant and self-righteous man" who had lived behind veil of respectability partly through his contact with the Jehovah's Witness church.
The judge said that an example of his deviousness was the fact that when the allegations against him started to be investigated, he went to his GP claiming that he had suffered erectile dysfunction for the last 30 years.
Judge Walters said: "You are, in my judgement, a devious man, a self-righteous and arrogant man. You have shown no remorse what-so-ever towards your victims or anybody else.
"You have lived the better part of you life, you have been able to do that - your victims have not.
"There is no sentence I can pass that will restore the lives of the victims to what they might have been but for your behaviour."
He added that the case showed that when allegations of sexual abuse were made they should be tested and investigated not disbelieved.
He called the the five year delay in the case eventually coming to court "unforgivable".
But he praised the officer who eventually took-over the case and saw it through to conviction, saying that for the first time the victims had been treated with the dignity they deserved.

@JOHN BUTLER here is a recent case from the UK.  It seem that the authorities were the ones that delayed. This is a good example of the fact that reporting to authorities does not automatically assure success. You can read the whole article here:
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/devious-righteous-christian-raped-two-15274172
An "arrogant" Jehovah's Witness subjected two girls under the age of 13 to years of systematic assaults and rapes.
Roy Collins, 80, was branded as "devious, righteous and arrogant" by a judge at Swansea Crown Court.
He had spent a decade systematically grooming, abusing and raping the two girls.
At one point during his campaign of abuse, one of their mothers burst into the Jehovah's Witness church in Swansea and publicly accused him of being a paedophile only to receive a letter from his solicitors warning her not to harass him.
Carline Rees QC, for the prosecution, read out impact statements from the two victims.
One said she had lived with the abuse for years before telling her family.
When she did so, the news had a "devastating effect" on her mother.
She said the abuse had an "significant impact" on her life, adding: "Every day I am happy if I can just make it through".
In her statement, the second victim said the abuse had led to her have trouble at school and to start taking drugs to try to "block out" what was happening. She said her suffering and pain continues to this day.
The court heard that one of the victims made a complaint about Collins in the 1990s, but he was not prosecuted.
The allegations were reported to the police again in 2013 - but it took five years for the matter to come to court.
Judge Geraint Walters told the defendant that his actions during the 1980s and 90s had been "truly wicked".
He described Collins as a "devious, arrogant and self-righteous man" who had lived behind veil of respectability partly through his contact with the Jehovah's Witness church.
The judge said that an example of his deviousness was the fact that when the allegations against him started to be investigated, he went to his GP claiming that he had suffered erectile dysfunction for the last 30 years.
Judge Walters said: "You are, in my judgement, a devious man, a self-righteous and arrogant man. You have shown no remorse what-so-ever towards your victims or anybody else.
"You have lived the better part of you life, you have been able to do that - your victims have not.
"There is no sentence I can pass that will restore the lives of the victims to what they might have been but for your behaviour."
He added that the case showed that when allegations of sexual abuse were made they should be tested and investigated not disbelieved.
He called the the five year delay in the case eventually coming to court "unforgivable".
But he praised the officer who eventually took-over the case and saw it through to conviction, saying that for the first time the victims had been treated with the dignity they deserved.

@Anna Not to mention personal feelings, opinions and emotions being thrown to justify something that is no Scriptural. There is often a whole lot of that, mainly when it comes to some prophets like Moses, or that of a disciples, or an Apostle like Paul, some being willing to tear out everything connecting to Paul's writings from the Bible itself.

I don't see why JW's wont believe this, as it's pretty much how many cases were handled, although a few words were a little loaded showing obvious bias.
As far as I know @JW Insider is an active Witness. If so, perhaps he would like to explain why he didn't leave the org.  Sorry JW Insider if I put you on the spot, but this goes back to my conversation with John Butler where I pointed out that I have probably read the same kind of information as him, but why is it that it made him leave, and why am I staying. I know it's a lot more complex than that. There are a lot of factors at play in including personality, experience, honesty, trust etc. Unfortunately our conversation trailed off, maybe it can be restarted again since the topic is "why John Butler left Jehovah's Witnesses" (the topic I never started, the librarian was at it again)

This is an illogical statement. There must be a proper investigation in the first place in order to find no solid proof or no witnesses or the telling of lies. Usually the elders take any report of child abuse very seriously. And in the Montana case under discussion, it is obvious the elders did find the perpetrator guilty. I think what you mean to say is that the elders are not as qualified as persons who are especially trained from a secular point of view.  But the elders are qualified to handle this from a spiritual aspect. And as elders this is what they are concerned with. Problems have arisen because this situation needs also to be handled secularly, and if the perpetrator is found guilty, to be punished by secular law also, not just disfellowshipped.

This is an illogical statement. There must be a proper investigation in the first place in order to find no solid proof or no witnesses or the telling of lies. Usually the elders take any report of child abuse very seriously. And in the Montana case under discussion, it is obvious the elders did find the perpetrator guilty. I think what you mean to say is that the elders are not as qualified as persons who are especially trained from a secular point of view.  But the elders are qualified to handle this from a spiritual aspect. And as elders this is what they are concerned with. Problems have arisen because this situation needs also to be handled secularly, and if the perpetrator is found guilty, to be punished by secular law also, not just disfellowshipped.

That's very funny. If only there were one Allen Smith who could communicate with one BillyTheKid. It's a long shot, but perhaps one of the following might have his number:
Wyatt Earp:

 
Billy the Kid:

Omg! Well, there are all kinds "in the truth"... As the saying goes, every village has its idiot. 

How ironic. It was Canadian witnesses that instigated the end of the world speculation in 1975. The only thing different, there was no “bath salt” to get high on, or is it their drinking water. I wonder if a none-witness slipped them a mickey to set them off.
Now, are these people really witnesses? CBC stated, “Others have said the accused and alleged victims know each other as neighbours and members of the same Jehovah's Witness church.”
Not everyone that attends a Kingdom Hall is automatically a “baptized” JW.
The lesson in all of this, never buy herbs in a different country and don’t forget to wear underwear in case of an accident. ?

Court document reveals more details in bizarre naked kidnapping case in Alberta
  Chris Purdy LEDUC, Alta. The Canadian Press Published 2 days agoUpdated September 24, 2018 They thought it was Armageddon and wanted to save their neighbours.
They believed police were monsters. They showed super strength after being pepper sprayed and Tasered.
And all but one of them were naked because, with the end of the world, they didn’t have time to get dressed.
A court document has provided more details in a bizarre naked kidnapping case that happened last year south of Edmonton, but some questions remain. Two women and one man, who cannot be identified due to a publication ban, each pleaded guilty in Leduc provincial court last week to a charge of unlawful confinement. One of the women also pleaded guilty to dangerous driving. Her two teenage daughters were involved in the case, but not charged.
The girls’ father, who was not part of the group, has said the five may have unknowingly drank some hallucinogenic tea. But the agreed statement of facts submitted in court says alcohol and drugs were not factors and there is no mention of tea in the document. The group, who are Jehovah’s Witnesses, had gathered at a home near Leduc on Nov. 2. The mother, who was then 35, had taken her daughters there to visit her 27-year old nephew and his 30-year old wife.
But over the next three days, the court document says they didn’t leave the house and they barely ate. One of the teens recalls watching movies but also hearing screaming and banging and seeing ashes in the air. Some of the five hid in a bedroom or a bathroom.
“They did so because they believed that they were in danger, either from bad or wicked people outside or from demons,” says the document.
It says the group believed that the Great Tribulation had happened and Nov. 6 was Armageddon. So they rushed off to find safety and save a neighbouring family.
“Four who were naked were changing but they had to leave right away because it was unsafe, so they left without clothes,” the document says.
The mother, the only one dressed, drove them all in a BMW SUV but was in such a hurry she went through the garage door. When the vehicle headed to the neighbours’ home, it apparently bent a metal gate.
The neighbours – a man, his adult daughter and her six-week-old son – were forced out of their house and into the snow without shoes, the document says. The woman and her baby were put in the back seat with the teen girls, who were naked under a blanket. The man was put in the trunk and ordered to chant “Jehovah” ten times.
The group also chanted “Jehovah” as the SUV sped down roads and went through a red light on the way to nearby Nisku, says the document.
Because the trunk didn’t latch shut, the man was able to climb out when the vehicle slowed. His daughter, after getting her hand slammed in the door of the SUV, was able to get out with her baby. A passing truck stopped to help the trio and they climbed inside.
The document says the SUV then rammed the truck from behind and the woman and her baby were thrown into the truck’s dash, although they were not injured. The SUV then went into a ditch.
When Mounties arrived, the group continued to chant and refused to get out, at times clinging to the vehicle and each other. One of the teens believed the police “were monsters who would kill them,” says the document. Officers said the people in the SUV “displayed extreme strength.” Two were unaffected by pepper spray. The three adults were also shot with Tasers between two and four times before they relented, although one then slid under the vehicle and had to be dragged out with a strap.
The neighbours later told police the group seemed “demonized” and “obviously not in their right minds.”
A judge has ordered pre-sentence reports and risk assessments, which could include psychological testing.
The three adult offenders are to return to court for sentencing Dec. 20.
---------------------------------------------
I wonder when we will be seeing this news on the JW.ORG Web Site?

In view of last weeks WT study "Do you have the facts" (August 2018, page 3) and thanks to @Gone Away for highlighting the following reports, I thought I would put this in a separate and concise topic to show an actual and recent example of misinformation.
NEWS REPORT: (I cut it a little short because the article went on about the ban in general. You van read the whole thing here: https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/world/five-jehovah-s-witnesses-detained-in-russia-investigators-10812938)
MOSCOW: Five Jehovah's Witnesses have been detained in Russia and charged with possessing weapons and running an extremist group, investigators said Wednesday (Oct 10, 2018), in the latest case targeting the banned religious movement.
They were arrested in the Kirov region northeast of Moscow, where authorities said they found two grenades and a landmine in searches of their homes.
The Jehovah's Witnesses are a Christian denomination that originated in the United States in the late 19th century.
The Russian authorities consider the movement a totalitarian sect and last year the country's supreme court banned the Jehovah's Witnesses from operating in Russia.
"They had been conducting meetings and called on others to join their organisation," Yevgenia Vorozhtsova, a spokeswoman for regional investigators, said.
She said officials were investigating how the members of the Jehovah's Witnesses had obtained the ammunition, but declined to provide further details.
Yaroslav Sivulskiy, a member of the European Association of Jehovah's Christian Witnesses, said it was the first time the Russian authorities had accused members of the movement of possessing ammunition.
"We were shocked," he said from the Latvian capital Riga. "It is both funny and strange. Why mines?"
One of those detained was a Polish national residing in Russia, he said.
 
THE FACTS: (here I took the liberty of slightly adjusting the translation by Google, so it made more sense)
On October 9, 2018, in the city of Kirov, during a search of the house of retired Vladimir Bogomolov, a collector of artifacts from the Great Patriotic War (1941-1945), investigators seized fragments of obviously unusable rusty shells. The man was searched because his 69-year-old spouse (the only one of her entire family) professes the religion of Jehovah's Witnesses. The woman does not share her husband's fascination with antiques. Thus, the report that the ammunition was seized allegedly from Jehovah's Witnesses is not true.
Jehovah's Witnesses do not take weapons for conscience reasons. For this position they appeared before tribunals of different countries and went to concentration camps. They will be grateful to the media for clarifying the misunderstanding .
Vladimir Bogomolov, from whom the relics were confiscated, was in the past an active participant in a search movement (aimed at burying the remains of the soldiers who died in World War II), he was the brigadier of the search party. The activities of his squad were written about in newspapers. On October 9, 2018, upon the discovery of the artifacts, a criminal case on the illegal possession of weapons was instituted, it was allocated in a separate proceeding. The items were sent for examination.
 Source: https://jw-russia.org/news
 
 

He probably had the Ruby Slippers,and the little dog, TOO !

In view of last weeks WT study "Do you have the facts" (August 2018, page 3) and thanks to @Gone Away for highlighting the following reports, I thought I would put this in a separate and concise topic to show an actual and recent example of misinformation.
NEWS REPORT: (I cut it a little short because the article went on about the ban in general. You van read the whole thing here: https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/world/five-jehovah-s-witnesses-detained-in-russia-investigators-10812938)
MOSCOW: Five Jehovah's Witnesses have been detained in Russia and charged with possessing weapons and running an extremist group, investigators said Wednesday (Oct 10, 2018), in the latest case targeting the banned religious movement.
They were arrested in the Kirov region northeast of Moscow, where authorities said they found two grenades and a landmine in searches of their homes.
The Jehovah's Witnesses are a Christian denomination that originated in the United States in the late 19th century.
The Russian authorities consider the movement a totalitarian sect and last year the country's supreme court banned the Jehovah's Witnesses from operating in Russia.
"They had been conducting meetings and called on others to join their organisation," Yevgenia Vorozhtsova, a spokeswoman for regional investigators, said.
She said officials were investigating how the members of the Jehovah's Witnesses had obtained the ammunition, but declined to provide further details.
Yaroslav Sivulskiy, a member of the European Association of Jehovah's Christian Witnesses, said it was the first time the Russian authorities had accused members of the movement of possessing ammunition.
"We were shocked," he said from the Latvian capital Riga. "It is both funny and strange. Why mines?"
One of those detained was a Polish national residing in Russia, he said.
 
THE FACTS: (here I took the liberty of slightly adjusting the translation by Google, so it made more sense)
On October 9, 2018, in the city of Kirov, during a search of the house of retired Vladimir Bogomolov, a collector of artifacts from the Great Patriotic War (1941-1945), investigators seized fragments of obviously unusable rusty shells. The man was searched because his 69-year-old spouse (the only one of her entire family) professes the religion of Jehovah's Witnesses. The woman does not share her husband's fascination with antiques. Thus, the report that the ammunition was seized allegedly from Jehovah's Witnesses is not true.
Jehovah's Witnesses do not take weapons for conscience reasons. For this position they appeared before tribunals of different countries and went to concentration camps. They will be grateful to the media for clarifying the misunderstanding .
Vladimir Bogomolov, from whom the relics were confiscated, was in the past an active participant in a search movement (aimed at burying the remains of the soldiers who died in World War II), he was the brigadier of the search party. The activities of his squad were written about in newspapers. On October 9, 2018, upon the discovery of the artifacts, a criminal case on the illegal possession of weapons was instituted, it was allocated in a separate proceeding. The items were sent for examination.
 Source: https://jw-russia.org/news
 
 

In view of last weeks WT study "Do you have the facts" (August 2018, page 3) and thanks to @Gone Away for highlighting the following reports, I thought I would put this in a separate and concise topic to show an actual and recent example of misinformation.
NEWS REPORT: (I cut it a little short because the article went on about the ban in general. You van read the whole thing here: https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/world/five-jehovah-s-witnesses-detained-in-russia-investigators-10812938)
MOSCOW: Five Jehovah's Witnesses have been detained in Russia and charged with possessing weapons and running an extremist group, investigators said Wednesday (Oct 10, 2018), in the latest case targeting the banned religious movement.
They were arrested in the Kirov region northeast of Moscow, where authorities said they found two grenades and a landmine in searches of their homes.
The Jehovah's Witnesses are a Christian denomination that originated in the United States in the late 19th century.
The Russian authorities consider the movement a totalitarian sect and last year the country's supreme court banned the Jehovah's Witnesses from operating in Russia.
"They had been conducting meetings and called on others to join their organisation," Yevgenia Vorozhtsova, a spokeswoman for regional investigators, said.
She said officials were investigating how the members of the Jehovah's Witnesses had obtained the ammunition, but declined to provide further details.
Yaroslav Sivulskiy, a member of the European Association of Jehovah's Christian Witnesses, said it was the first time the Russian authorities had accused members of the movement of possessing ammunition.
"We were shocked," he said from the Latvian capital Riga. "It is both funny and strange. Why mines?"
One of those detained was a Polish national residing in Russia, he said.
 
THE FACTS: (here I took the liberty of slightly adjusting the translation by Google, so it made more sense)
On October 9, 2018, in the city of Kirov, during a search of the house of retired Vladimir Bogomolov, a collector of artifacts from the Great Patriotic War (1941-1945), investigators seized fragments of obviously unusable rusty shells. The man was searched because his 69-year-old spouse (the only one of her entire family) professes the religion of Jehovah's Witnesses. The woman does not share her husband's fascination with antiques. Thus, the report that the ammunition was seized allegedly from Jehovah's Witnesses is not true.
Jehovah's Witnesses do not take weapons for conscience reasons. For this position they appeared before tribunals of different countries and went to concentration camps. They will be grateful to the media for clarifying the misunderstanding .
Vladimir Bogomolov, from whom the relics were confiscated, was in the past an active participant in a search movement (aimed at burying the remains of the soldiers who died in World War II), he was the brigadier of the search party. The activities of his squad were written about in newspapers. On October 9, 2018, upon the discovery of the artifacts, a criminal case on the illegal possession of weapons was instituted, it was allocated in a separate proceeding. The items were sent for examination.
 Source: https://jw-russia.org/news
 
 

Jehovah's Witnesses Are Not Related to Ammunition in Kirov
October 12, 2018 Artifacts since WWII. Photo source: Grigorenko / depositphotos.com
On October 9, 2018, in the city of Kirov, during a search of the house of retired Vladimir Bogomolov, collecting artifacts from the Great Patriotic War (1941-1945), investigators seized fragments of knowingly unfit rusty shells. The man was searched because his 69-year-old spouse (the only one of her entire family) professes the religion of Jehovah's Witnesses. A woman does not share her husband's fascination with antiques. Thus, the report that the ammunition was seized allegedly from Jehovah's Witnesses is not true.
Jehovah's Witnesses do not take weapons for conscience reasons. For this position they appeared before tribunals of different countries and went to concentration camps. They will be grateful to the media for clarifying the misunderstanding .
Vladimir Bogomolov, from whom the relics were confiscated, was in the past an active participant in the search movement (aimed at burying the remains of the soldiers who died in World War II), the brigadier of the search party. On the activities of his squad was written in the newspapers. On October 9, 2018, upon the discovery of artifacts, a criminal case on the illegal possession of weapons was instituted, it was allocated in a separate proceeding. Items sent for examination.
The criminal prosecution of peaceful believers, including searches and arrest of civilians in Kirov, was the result of a miscarriage of justice — the recognition of all registered organizations of Jehovah's Witnesses in Russia as “extremist” at once. Believers appeal this decision to the European Court of Human Rights.  The Human Rights Council under the President of the Russian Federation  expresses concern about the increasing religious repression.
Source: https://jw-russia.org/news/18101219-489.html

Even the good old "BEEB" picked this one up. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45815889
Perhaps this is an example of what WT August 2018 p4 pp5 called "an exaggerated and outrageous account" as there appears to be a conflict in the way the story has been spun: Jehovah's Witnesses Are Not Related to Ammunition in Kirov

Really?

Thank you Anna 

I think TTH and I would get along fine .... I am extending an open invitation for him to come over to my house sometime ... I would be glad to have him for dinner.