Anna

I'm afraid not according to the "life and ministry meeting work book" 2017-06-08
 

I'm afraid not according to the "life and ministry meeting work book" 2017-06-08
 

Not long ago we had a situation in our congregation with a brother who was addicted to prescription drugs to the point where he got in serious trouble with the law. The nail in his coffin came though when he decided to come to the meeting for FS when the CO was here, inebriated. Yes, you read correctly. Anyway, the brothers wanted to take him home, short of manhandling him to stop him from driving off,  but they didn't succeed, so the CO and another brother followed him in their car to make sure he got home safely.  On the way, the inebriated brother managed to mount the sidewalk and crash into a traffic light post. Thankfully no one was hurt. But what I found curious was that the CO quickly made sure all our literature was out of that brothers car before the police arrived.
My husband and I later discussed this and realised that this was a good example of the mentality we have, to always give the appearance that we are morally on a higher ground, have the cleanest buildings, best equipment, perfect little families etc. (I recalled when you gave the experience of Bethel not wining the first place in cleanliness award (or something like that) and how one of the brothers was extremely upset about it).  It is no wonder then that we get dishonest when things are not quite so. But on a much more serious note, as you mentioned, it also causes us to cover over things that should NOT be covered over, such as child abuse. 

It is a heavy burden "carrying the utensils of Jehovah" and yet being riddled with the imperfections that plagues every single human being on earth.
It would be nice if one day we can be candid, open and honest about our failings. I think we are trying, in an indirect way. The last WT lessons pointing to the failings of Moses and Aaron and others shows that no one is exempt, not even those in leadership roles. And of course we know the "Slave" has put in print that they make mistakes (no kidding ). But this mentality, that we have a reputation to uphold, regardless whether actual reality is different, is deeply ingrained.

We can love our disfellowshipped families and pray for them. There is a point obviously at which we will not ignore family. But that is left up to each person's discretion, since they know their situation, and the other person,  better than anyone else.

True, but I only pointed out one way that actually applies to our discussion. The classic family unit, where children, whatever age, are still subject to their parents. That is where disfellowshipping will have this affect: "The religious ties he had with his family change, but blood ties remain. The marriage relationship and normal family affections and dealings continue."
That is what we were discussing on here wasn't it?
Yes, so many different things. Which means that each person has to asses their unique situation and act accordingly. It is up to each individual in the end, the GB cannot make you do anything.
 

This was a Bethel "Family Night" (kind of a variety show with talented brothers showing their skills and with a couple of experiences). An older longtime Bethelite had been in charge of a clean-up before a city inspection of factories in this area of Brooklyn. The Squibb Pharmaceutical factory got a first place award and Bethel's printing factory came in second place. (Which is actually really amazing considering the cleanliness required of a pharmaceutical company compared to the much lower bar required of a printing factory.) When Brother Schroeder and Brother Gehring heard this in rehearsal, they whispered to each other and Brother Schroeder talked to the brother. I couldn't really tell if the brother was extremely upset, but he looked concerned as if getting some negative counsel.  I was a few seats away and couldn't hear them. At the actual Family Night presentation, the brother who gave the experience changed it to "Both Squibb and the Watchtower each received a rating of 100 percent!!" The difference would have been striking to anyone who attended rehearsal which included about 50 people.

Not long ago we had a situation in our congregation with a brother who was addicted to prescription drugs to the point where he got in serious trouble with the law. The nail in his coffin came though when he decided to come to the meeting for FS when the CO was here, inebriated. Yes, you read correctly. Anyway, the brothers wanted to take him home, short of manhandling him to stop him from driving off,  but they didn't succeed, so the CO and another brother followed him in their car to make sure he got home safely.  On the way, the inebriated brother managed to mount the sidewalk and crash into a traffic light post. Thankfully no one was hurt. But what I found curious was that the CO quickly made sure all our literature was out of that brothers car before the police arrived.
My husband and I later discussed this and realised that this was a good example of the mentality we have, to always give the appearance that we are morally on a higher ground, have the cleanest buildings, best equipment, perfect little families etc. (I recalled when you gave the experience of Bethel not wining the first place in cleanliness award (or something like that) and how one of the brothers was extremely upset about it).  It is no wonder then that we get dishonest when things are not quite so. But on a much more serious note, as you mentioned, it also causes us to cover over things that should NOT be covered over, such as child abuse. 

It is a heavy burden "carrying the utensils of Jehovah" and yet being riddled with the imperfections that plagues every single human being on earth.
It would be nice if one day we can be candid, open and honest about our failings. I think we are trying, in an indirect way. The last WT lessons pointing to the failings of Moses and Aaron and others shows that no one is exempt, not even those in leadership roles. And of course we know the "Slave" has put in print that they make mistakes (no kidding ). But this mentality, that we have a reputation to uphold, regardless whether actual reality is different, is deeply ingrained.

Unfortunately, this stance is often a feature of hypocrisy. [cite any number of religio/political examples here].
However, I agree with the concept that humans, whoever they are, do not have the moral high ground ultimately. This belongs to Jehovah alone and I think this particular matter is an example of this.
We must not overlook the sobering fact that, at the present time, the words of Romans 13:3-4 still hold true regarding the secular authorities:
"For those rulers are an object of fear, not to the good deed, but to the bad. Do you want to be free of fear of the authority? Keep doing good, and you will have praise from it; for it is God’s minister to you for your good. But if you are doing what is bad, be in fear, for it is not without purpose that it bears the sword. It is God’s minister, an avenger to express wrath against the one practicing what is bad."

This is an excellent point. I often wonder about the same. I even wonder, for example, what goes through a Catholic priest's mind when he has an affair with a parishioner or what goes through the mind of the parishioner when (she or he) has an affair with a priest. So you can imagine my wonderment at the state of affairs in the congregation.
It's a bit of comfort to know that our faith itself and our dependence on Bible training will sharpen our conscience and sense of morality. Undoubtedly these factors help bring the majority of such issues to light.
(Hebrews 4:12, 13) 12 For the word of God is alive and exerts power and is sharper than any two-edged sword and pierces even to the dividing of soul and spirit, and of joints from the marrow, and is able to discern thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And there is not a creation that is hidden from his sight, but all things are naked and openly exposed to the eyes of the one to whom we must give an account. (1 Timothy 5:24, 25) 24 The sins of some men are publicly manifest, leading directly to judgment, but as for other men [their sins] also become manifest later. 25 In the same way also the fine works are publicly manifest and those that are otherwise cannot be kept hid. (Ephesians 5:10-13) 10 Keep on making sure of what is acceptable to the Lord; 11 and quit sharing with [them] in the unfruitful works that belong to the darkness, but, rather, even be reproving [them], 12 for the things that take place in secret by them it is shameful even to relate. 13 Now all the things that are being reproved are made manifest by the light, for everything that is being made manifest is light. But why not all things in this life? Why 10 years? The following verse in 1 Cor 4:5 says that some "secret things of darkness" won't become revealed until "the Lord comes."
(1 Corinthians 4:5) 5 Hence do not judge anything before the due time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring the secret things of darkness to light and make the counsels of the hearts manifest, and then each one will have his praise come to him from God. (1 Corinthians 3:13) 13 each one’s work will become manifest, for the day will show it up, because it will be revealed by means of fire; and the fire itself will prove what sort of work each one’s is. (Hebrews 4:12, 13) [especially v. 13 already quoted above.] I have struggled with whether Ephesians 5:11 quoted above is saying that we each have a personal responsibility to reveal. I think it creates a divisive spirit in the congregations when everyone is ready to turn others in, yet it seems that sometimes it is up to us to "be reproving them" because the "things that are being reproved are made manifest by the light."
When the ARC was active, I discussed the potential fallout with a friend of mine still at Bethel and he told me that one of the dangers or fears was going to be whether or not the name or position of one of the perpetrators was going to be revealed. In one of the very cases used as an example this brother in New York said that the perpetrator was a well-known brother who had also been the Australian Branch Overseer for decades. The brother seemed to have no doubt of his guilt, although I personally would not know, but I still think that using this particular case in the process was purposefully intended to put a kind of fear and humility into the WTS there, because it showed who had the upper hand and who held the "moral high ground." But hearing this, and knowing how the brother who told me was deeply concerned that the truth not come out, I wondered the same thing. I thought maybe it should come out. (Per Ephesians 5:10-13)

Yes, this is a little misleading, because it only applies to members living in the same household.

Hey! You leave me out of this!

It was 7 until not long ago, when Kenneth Cook joined this year. I was assuming your disenchantment with the GB is not recent, therefor my comment about your feelings of being controlled was in reference to the 7 members.
I never said the anointed had mental issues, nor you, but your reasoning has put you in a unhappy state of mind. That is what I meant.
 
I hate to tell you, but if it was announced that you are no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses, then you have been disfellowshipped. And by the way, the reasons for disfellowshipping are never disclosed.

That's better. I was living on the street at 16 after experiencing "Catholic disfellowshiping" for not playing by the rules. I knew that wasn't right because I wasn't even a member!

It's not a new point. A disfellowshipped, grown child, not living at home should be shunned by the family except for absolutely necessary business that may need to be conducted with the child. This "child" is at least 18. The economy since 2008 has wreaked havoc with this rule, because so many more children in the 18-30 category are no longer able to get out on their own, and more disfellowshipped "children" in that age group claim it's economically necessary to remain at home.

Recently (like this last week), I was attending to our JW publication cart at our local library.  We (the sister with me) were approached by a guy dressed like a country music wannabe with cowboy hat and a plaid shirt with the arms torn off.  His arms were flaying around as he talked about a Youtube vid about our "black dude" leader saying we need to cast our children out of our homes if they aren't following JW rules.  The sister and I were perplexed since we didn't know what he was talking about and tried to reason with him.  Now I know what got him fired up.   The recording of Bro Herd is very hard to decipher what he is saying but I know from previous broadcasts he and Bro Morris can express their personal opinion like its scripture.  They mean well but I feel they go too far sometimes.  
Casting out demons is totally different than dealing with a disfellowshipped child.  The demons had been in Jehovah's presence as fully functioning perfect beings.   They chose a course of rebellion with full knowledge and understanding not subjected to the influence of Adamic sin.    A imperfect child does make their own choices but who knows what influences those choices.   Being an imperfect human gets complicated.    Every country on earth that I can think of has a prison system to protect their good citizens from the bad.  As with Russia we can see that system has a hidden agenda to do just the opposite.   As humans in or out of the Truth, we can have a hidden agenda and I suspect the BoE is not exempt if they are not careful.   I pray for Jehovah to repair any damage done and to cause corrections to be made.  

"Has the Governing Body of Jehovah's WItnesses Put Themselves in the Place Of Jesus Christ as Mediator Between God and Men?"
The answer is NO.  Their blood cannot compensate for Adam's sin.   There are many men and women who give their life for others such as military, police, emergency workers and rescuers.    But none of their sacrificed lives can be laid on the alter before Jehovah to provide a ransom for mankind.   I do believe in the past there have been GB members that were full of themselves and became haughty but that's for Jehovah and Jesus to sort out.  Just as Moses, David and others who lead Israel were fallible so are the members of the GB.   To their benefit, they have helped unite 8+ million humans in serving Jehovah thru Christ's blood- today thats quite a feat!

At last, I think you have put your finger on the problem. That Anna is nothing but a big chicken. ?

That thought crossed my mind as I saw the picture, but then I held back from saying anything so that no one would get the idea that SuziQ's pretzel stick favorites were actually just "bite-size torture stakes." (Somehow "hot cross buns" seems like a much easier name for a marketing team to promote.)
By the way, some people might think that when Space Merchant mentioned that he was a unitarian, that this was the same as claiming to be a non-Witness Unitarian. Witnesses are Unitarian believers.
U·ni·tar·i·an ˌyo͞onəˈterēən/ noun THEOLOGY   1. a person, especially a Christian, who asserts the unity of God and rejects the doctrine of the Trinity.

One loop. These are Unitarian pretzels, not those of Fred Rogers.

In my country the pretzel were rounded. They look similar to the Italian pretzels known as Taraliis.
Every morning around 10:30am-11:30am, a woman with a basket on her head will walk around the towns and or villages, tossing the pretzels in a small bag to children and older folk. Other times it is cookies, bon-bon, as we call it, popcorn and or the best kind of snack, Sugar Canes. The other half of my family from Belize do something similar, but never made rounded pretzels, we tend to get more fruit

I personally don't remember anyone mentioning that rumor until near the end of his TV show run.
I do remember a controversy in the 1980's about an episode where Mr.Rogers visits a pretzel factory and the episode presented the idea that the pretzel was initially a treat for children who said their prayers and it was twisted into a shape that supposedly represented a child saying his prayers, and when completed, the final shape had three "separate but equal" spaces (not his words) to represent the Trinity. I vaguely remember that this caused some controversy not just among local Witnesses, but that some Mid-Western church had brought it up.
I didn't see the episode until my own children watched it in the 1990's. To their credit the WTS did not ban pretzels, although now I always look at them a bit like "hot cross buns."

You mean that your wife will not discuss these things with you? Whatever is wrong with that woman?
I hope you dial this stuff down a few notches at home. You cannot be easy to live with. If you go at it at home as you go at it here and your wife decided one day that she just couldn’t take it anymore, I’m sure you would assign the GB full blame for that, too.

As someone already mentioned, this video is for a selected audience only, those who are to serve in Bethel. Although the org. has mentioned the inappropriateness of masturbation for a Christian, based on principles in the Bible, it has only done so  occasionally. It has not been blown out of all proportion. However, addiction to pornography has become a big problem (in the world too) and I have no doubt that masturbation has a lot to do with it.  As James 1:14 warns: " But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn sin, when it has been carried out, brings forth death."

As far as I know every one of Jehovah's Witnesses does that.
You are saying that indeed, and I am sorry you got that impression because the GB don't view themselves that way. So what gives you that impression?


I liked at the meeting Thursday, Proverbs 21:2, one of the support scriptures cited on the gem point of how Jehovah draws people: 
All of a man’s ways seem right to him, But Jehovah examines the hearts.
Everybody is right. Nobody states a fact that is wrong. Everybody states facts that are right. These are all matters of the head.
But how they are combined and how they are prioritized are matters of the heart, which Jehovah examines.