Anna

Had to caution a few brothers that were sending out thoughts on Facebook and a few places on the matter of looking for God's intervention in human affairs "whenever it is that they are saying "Peace and security!" around the time (a few weeks ago)  America seemed to be making progress in securing peace between North Korea and the West. I reminded them about Jesus' words at  Matthew 24:42-44, as follows:
"(Matthew 24:42-44) Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. 43 “But know one thing: If the householder had known in what watch the thief was coming, he would have kept awake and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 On this account, you too prove yourselves ready, because the Son of man is coming at an hour that you do not think to be it."
 At the transfiguration Jehovah told Jesus' disciples to "Listen to him".   These sayings are from the same source, Jehovah, but we have to be sober and not run off with one but not weighing the other.  We know the season we are in, but we will not be able to work out the precise period of the end. No matter what we see now, the end is going to take us by surprise.  We should obey Jesus and prove ourselves ready. No one knows when a thief plans to come.  Jesus stated that it was at an hour that "you do not think to be it", referring to his disciples. So let us to take note but be modest, sober and most of all, ready.  So the question above is really timely.

Which scenario do you refer to here as needing to be questioned?
the scriptural picture as portrayed in Rev. 17? the interpreted understanding and application that Jehovah's Witnesses currently hold in connection with Rev.17? the suggestion that UN preparation for an attack on religion could be discerned from current political and ideological developments? And by extension, where we are in the stream of time relative to the start of the great tribulation?  
This is quite right as the several uses of the thief and unknown hour metaphors in Scripture confirm.
However, why do you think that Jesus outlined detailed events in prophecy relating to end times?
 

Discuss the question from the title of the topic? Now that's a novel idea. ?
It is a reasonable solution to see the 10-horns and the wild beast as either representing, or some part of the dominant world power at the time of the great tribulation, the fall of Babylon the Great, Armageddon, etc. And it is a reasonable assumption to see the prostitute as false religion. And it seems that God puts a thought into the heart of the ten horns and the heart of the wild beast to give their kingdom to this wild beast until some end predetermined by the God's words will have been accomplished.
Obviously. But is it the same as "biting the hand that feeds us" to discuss whether our current explanation of this chapter is reasonable? Is our end-time-scenario too sacrosanct to question in any way. Or is perhaps now the best opportune time to consider where our loyalties will lie if things seem NOT to be working out as expected? Or is perhaps now the best opportune time to consider the meaning of Jesus words about not being able to work out the closeness of the time of the end if things DO INDEED seem to be working out as expected?
As several people already know, I come at this issue from the perspective that Jesus warned us against trying to look at signs of the times to divine the closeness of the end. It will come as a "thief in the night." Some of us will answer, but we won't be surprised, or in the dark, as someone who is awake and prepared for the thief. That's true, of course, but not because we will be able to figure out the time or season in which the thief will appear. Not because we will be watching for some entity to call out "peace and security." It's because we as Christians will be both patient and ready at all times because we are always looking out that our motivations are pure. Peter says we stay ready by watching ourselves and the type of person we ought to be, and clarifies the motivations behind all our activity in 2 Peter 1:5-8:
5 For this very reason, put forth all earnest effort+ to supply to your faith virtue,+ to your virtue knowledge,+ 6 to your knowledge self-control, to your self-control+ endurance, to your endurance godly devotion,+ 7 to your godly devotion brotherly affection, to your brotherly affection love.+ 8 For if these things exist in you and overflow, they will prevent you from being either inactive or unfruitful*+ regarding the accurate knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. There have always been those persons who think they are doing a favor to fellow Witnesses, or perhaps also highlighting their own faith in the predicted scenario by watching out for any mention of "peace and security" by a Pope, a world leader, or a UN representative. The initial post in this topic goes to a lot of trouble to try to read between the lines for items coming from the UN that somehow indicate that "they" could turn against and attack religion at any time. I think this is unhealthy and unchristian for several reasons. But I've already gone into detail about this aspect in other posts in the past.
This doesn't mean the scenario is impossible, only that Jesus said it was wrong to look for such scenarios as a way to anticipate the closeness of the end or to try to predict the timing his parousia. They might create some fervor and anticipation about the closeness of the end, but they will produce an unchristian motivation.
And, as I've also said, it would not be honest for me to discuss the question at hand without also mentioning that I think the whole scenario should be questioned. And, as I've also said, I think as Christians we are under an obligation to question such scenarios as to whether they are Biblical or even useful.

Queen Esther:
Silly is what we ( the guys! ) are looking for!
there is a principle in searching out the truth or common sense of any matter, and it sounds very profound in Latin ... "Reducto ad Absurdum", that is, to reduce something to the absurd, to see if it still makes any sense. 
It also works the other way ... to extrapolate an idea to the absurd (but I do not know the Latin expression for it ...), also to see if the original idea makes any sense.
I used to wear military style "dog tags" when I was younger, and the bottom two lines said
" NO BLOOD OR
BLOOD FRACTIONS"
The idea being that anyone who was in a position to give me  blood while  I was unconscious, and could not resist, seeing that phrase on a MILITARY style dog tag, absolutely would NOT violate it.   Even better than a medical directive ... as in a court of law, if he did, I would end up owning his house, car, and medical office ....and he would INSTANTLY think of that.
They will ALWAYS open your shirt to take vital signs before giving blood, and there, in glorious stainless steel, in a format and style that they instantly respect, on a stainless steel beaded chain is a medallion that says
" NO BLOOD OR
BLOOD FRACTIONS"
I was only PARTIALLY kidding about the next size up from the bracelet you featured would be an 8"x10" sign on a neck chain, because that bracelet is HUGE ... and LOUD (visually).
Considering the PROBABILITY that you will ever need it, which is extremely low ...and the size of the thing, it screams  "Give me blood", which the other Brother jokesters alluded to.
Years ago I thought of tattooing an identification number on my body, in case I got blown up, so when they found my body, it could be identified ... and after a great deal of thought decided that it would be best on the soles of my feet.   I never did this, but I would have NEVER considered putting it on the inside of my left forearm, in a style similar to that used in Nazi death camps.
It's the same reason why Sisters getting married do not get wedding rings made from big old-style faceted glass doorknobs.
However, one of those bracelets might be a VERY good idea, when checking into a hospital for routine maintenance.
 
 

Possibly you could use it as a neck band.
No, Tom, no. Don't say it. Be like the One that you claim to imitate.
 

How about a tattoo over your heart?

Come on, surely they would just find a compromise.......

Yikes! The perfect batter will never miss a grand slam and the perfect pitcher will never permit a hit!
I’ve seen the light! I quit.

Someone was just talking about how, in the new system, no one would be able to choose the color of a carpet in a Kingdom Hall. If, for example, one liked blue and one liked beige both of them would want to given in to the choice of the other person out of love and humility, since love does not try to get its own way. This would then be the same for every aspect of design, material, and coloring, not just the color of the carpet.
Of course the argument is usually presented by atheists who would dismiss eternal life and ridicule the idea of perfection, not realizing that no two people would ever choose to excel at all the exact same things in the same way.

In my tool room I have perhaps 50 different types, styles and sizes of screwdrivers, and pliers of every description, and hatchets and hammers, saws, etc, that fill up a room the size of a single car garage.
Each tool is perfect for it's intended use.
I shall NOT be disappointed if in the unlikely event I make it into the New System, that my nipples do not become fully functional.
...although I DO appreciate ... oh .... um ....  never mind.

To be honest I don't think I could wear that. It would be like I was expecting to be transfused at any moment. It's like someone allergic to peanuts wearing a "no peanuts" bracelet. Plus, how would it be understood? Like you don't have blood or what? I think JWinsider is onto something. No, it's too in your face, and ugly at that. 

The next size up is an 8"x10" sign you hang around your neck.

If I wore it, no one would believe that I had "NO BLOOD."
On the other hand . . .

You are welcome!

https://www.jw.org/en/news/legal/legal-resources/information/packet-jw-scripturally-based-position-child-protection/
 

I don't think you can be talking about Gerard Gertoux developing an ego and leaving the truth, because really we have absolutely no proof of that. The only thing that is evident from his own writings is that he believes Jerusalem was destroyed in 587 BCE. So I am not sure what you mean by trust. That we can not trust him because of that? As far as I am aware he has never criticized the WT and he has not advertised his research regarding that subject, in fact he has been laying pretty low, and not really wanting to talk about it with anyone.
Why is that dangerous thinking? Isn't that just stating a fact? I didn't say that we should be complacent, but I do think we should be realistic.
I think there is a danger though in promising people something that will happen in their life time, and then it not coming true. My best friend, a long time pioneer, left because she lost faith that this is the true religion because of promises that were "without a doubt true" but that never happened and that kept getting explained away. I personally feel it's a little presumptions to claim these things. Then some will say..."well, they were in it for the wrong reason, that's why they left". But what is it we are feeding in people when we put such emphasis on the imminent end? We are doing exactly that, we are encouraging serving Jehovah for the wrong reason. Not because he is a God deserving our exclusive devotion, but because of what we can get out of him very soon. I wonder, did Jesus have in mind attracting people to the Kingdom in such a way? Yes, of course we tell them to "repent" because the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near, yes it is good we are not complacent like other religions, yes it is good we keep a sense of urgency, and yes it is good to keep our hope alive and in front of us, but to make certain claims (or I should say the Slave, we just repeat what they say) which are blatantly erroneous, makes fools of others and us, and can cause people to stumble. Perhaps this is a test. How loyal are we to Jehovah "despite" man's errors. Another good friend of mine, a very zealous faithful sister, is not allowing the errors of man to slow her down, or stumble her. She  waves her hand in dismissal at the new explanation to why Armageddon hasn't come yet, aka the 'overlapping generation'. Pretty much in a similar manner as Br. Herd did in the December broadcast when talking about our "past" understanding of the generation. He seems to think we've finally got it. She thinks it's nonsense. Her motto is; when it comes it comes, in the meantime I am here to do my job. And if I die so what?  Hopefully I will be resurrected. And if not, I won't even care, will I?
When the Slave admits they've sometimes had wrong expectations, that doesn't mean we have to have those same wrong expectations too, does it?

Hmmmm......I beg to differ. How about we both ask a number of friends a simple question at the KH this Sunday or in a field service group: "do you know how to explain why we believe 1914 and 607?"
In any case, it looks like you are trying to evade the question by implying that understanding how we come to 1914 (and 607) requires too much time and that one has better things to do (which actually confirms what I said, that most don't really know) and also you are detracting from the question by implying that those who do this, are really just trying to discredit the Slave and score points for themselves on a discussion forum.
I can't say anything about what was said under another heading, but I do know that the question that arose a number of times was if WT accepts 537, then why does it not accept 587, if both dates are verifiable by the same astronomical/historical l sources.
I am not here to score points either, (and if anyone is, well then they are to be pitied because what real value does collecting points from complete strangers who have no impact on your real, outside the internet, life have?). I am not trying to prove the Slave are deceivers,  but how would you explain to someone what I posted earlier but you never commented on. It was in answer to your comment:  " Faith is important - but Jehovah knew that us simple folks - we always need small steps to look forward to and he lovingly gave it to us.... and what is more.. the proof of the pudding is the eating....... world events since 1914 has proven that it is a 'reality'...... We will soon be seeing the last prophecies regarding Babylon the great, the call to peace and security...and the 8th king in action.... as a matter of fact - religions seem to be riding the beast as we speak...."  And my reply was:
"BUT that does not mean the dates and numbers and lengths of periods we simple folks put together are always correct are they? What has happened to the millions that were not supposed to die? (they did). What has happened to the generation that was not supposed to pass away? (they have, practically) What has happened to the children that were not supposed to even finish school in this system? (they did, and they have children of their own). What has happened to the world that can't get any worse? (it did, and still might)".
Religions seem to be riding the beast as we speak, but there have been many signs before that, that actually turned out NOT to be the sign
To be fair, this topic here "607 B.C.E. - Is it Biblically Supported" really does call for secular,/scholarly knowledge because it is an academic subject.  No matter how noble feelings are, they still have no impact on whether something is true or false. And I cannot somehow connect a date with love for Jehovah, especially if there is a possibility that the date could be completely erroneous.
I think those people have been paying attention to the signs on the ground. Probably since they first learned about them.
Indeed, the Amaharets.  And it is a consolation to me that even if we are totally wrong about Christ's enthronement in 1914 and it takes another 2000 years for Armageddon to come, surely Jehovah will look upon us that we, the Amaharets, did our best to follow in the footsteps of Christ, by preaching the Kingdom and by living our life in harmony with God's moral standards. Surely Jehovah will recognize that the majority of Christ's sheep are unable to verify or understand everything the Bible, or what the Slave presents, like the Beoreans were able to. I can't imagine a missionary in Peru being overly concerned about Neo Babylonian chronology. Surely it is sufficient that these ones have verified the fundamental truths. And those who desire and are able to delve deeper into the academic side of this particular issue, and in all honesty find discrepancies with 607, surely they will not be disqualified? Thankfully, Jehovah is the reader of hearts. However, if those who have taken upon themselves the responsibility to disseminate spiritual food to the Amaharets, and they feed falsehood, they will be judged severely, for obvious reasons. So really, we have nothing to be worried about. For the Amaharets and those "academics/scholars" who are pure in heart and motive it's a win win situation isn’t it?


 

No, I actually meant friends in the truth.
I understand, but maybe you did not read my other post to you* where I mention that I haven't seen you presenting any valid counter arguments which could convince an unbiased observer to side with your explanation. What I said was that your arguments would not stand up in trial.  It's like the opposition is talking about apples and you are talking about oranges. The opposition is talking about dates (not the fruit ) and numbers, and you are talking about feelings and motives and evidence on the ground....
How is that? As far as I know, probably more than 90% of the friends (Jehovah's Witnesses) do not understand 1914, or to be more specific, do not understand how we arrive at 1914, and don't even try.
Yes. Us simple folks need numbers. Numbers are nice. People like numbers and dates. They help to tangibly anchor ideas or situations in the stream of time. Without dates it's just not the same. Try reading a biography or a report without them. And of course not to mention the fact that dates are essential for establishing time periods in history and a billion other things. Jehovah is the arbiter of time, and is the great timekeeper. BUT that does not mean the dates and numbers and lengths of periods we simple folks put together are always correct are they? What has happened to the millions that were not supposed to die? (they did). What has happened to the generation that was not supposed to pass away? (they have, practically) What has happened to the children that were not supposed to even finish school in this system? (they did, and they have children of their own). What has happened to the world that can't get any worse? (it did, and still might) As you say, the proof is in the pudding.
So that is why, when the rubber hits the road, we need to have faith in Jehovah, not man.
(*I wish the posts were numbered so that they could be easily referenced @admin @The Librarian)

Ok. So how is what you said previously even relevant then? And does it make sense that something that is a complex subject, frequented only by a minority, should play such a decisive role by which all are judged either favorably or unfavorably as @Arauna seems to point out.
And by the way what's wrong with the French brother Gerard Gertoux, is he not competent in chronology?
 

I think you might be coming to rash conclusions when you say those trying to disprove 1914 are doing so only to discredit the Slave. I am not saying no one does that, but I feel that those who honestly try to understand WT dates, and then find these dates faulty, do it the other way around. They begin to distrust the Slave on the evidence of their findings. Please don't attack me for saying this as I myself have not found proof for 607 or 587 either way. I am in a completely privileged neutral zone. I am neither for nor against. One thing I have noticed though, and excuse me if I am wrong,  (I may have missed your other posts), but it seems you have not presented any solid counter argument  against  587, only your feelings in that it's like "running after fluff", and criticism and motives of those who present arguments against 607. What you say would not stand up in a trial at all.  It's like the opposition is talking about apples and you are talking about oranges. The opposition is talking about dates and numbers, and you are talking about feelings and motives and evidence on the ground....
I don't think anyone is arguing with you on this at all.
What I find fascinating, and puzzling at the same time though, is how some friends will immediately class others as defectors if they do not believe in 607 or 1914. To give an example, on another forum, one poster made the comment that we should be wary of this one particular JW scholar because he does not support 607. Why it is so imperative to you and others, that in order to belong to this NATION, one has to believe in some specific date? In practical terms, what on earth is the saving attribute of a date? Yes, I know it was supposed to be the establishment of God's kingdom, which is the instrument by which all things will be reconciled to God, but come on, are we to be SO fixated on a date where believing in it or not is the difference between being saved or damned? God's kingdom will accomplish all those things regardless of the date it is established, won't it? As was pointed out quite clearly in the 2017 convention video, we are dedicated to Jehovah God, not a date! Surely a date has no baring on your sentiments above about the NATION ?

I think that if beginning today, the Slave never mentioned the dates 607 or 1914  again, but merely the destruction of Jerusalem, and  God's Kingdom, no one would be upset and think we have gone apostate. Probably no one but a few who are keyed in, and those at Bethel, would even notice. In fact, the new generation of Witnesses as I have observed does not even believe Armageddon will come any time soon. (I have heard some young ones speculate around 50 years). And the generation who believed their children would not grow up in this system, but who have grand children now, have reconciled themselves with the possibility that they will die before Armageddon comes. I think this is good. Because remember, we serve Jehovah, not a date. Abraham never saw the complete fulfillment of the promise made to him either, what makes us think we have to? Don't get me wrong, it would be nice of course, but I refuse to get anxious  for a date, or even an approximate time period. You have probably seen me quote a father talking to his daughter saying "plan ahead as if Armageddon won't come in your lifetime but lead your life as if it will come tomorrow". The father is long dead, and the daughter possibly too, as she was born in 1923. You can read her life story in  w04 12.1 Trusting in Jehovah’s Loving Care.
In any case, all this talk about the gentile times calculations are not something Russell came up with. The originator of these calculations was William Miller of the second Adventists. (of course there were others even before him, but Russell associated with Miller). So if we go and dig down to the grass roots, to find the beginning of this idea,  really, we have William Miller to thank for it. But I'm not quite comfortable with that thought. I'm not comfortable with the thought that 1914 evolved from one of the branches of Christendom!
http://www.readex.com/blog/calculating-second-coming-19th-century-america-selected-items-american-pamphlets-1820-1922

I am sure you will agree that because the Bible gives us some numbers and a chronology, it has forever been the quest of believing mankind since the death of Christ, to crack the code of His promised second coming. Especially with the beginning of Adventist movements folks have been trying to figure out the key to WHEN. Russell and his associates were also interested in when. As you probably know, Russell even used the Pyramids to try to calculate Christ's second coming. So the whole period of the Second Awakening revival was focused on figuring all this out. And from that fertile ground came OUR "magical" dates. In fact if you look,  there have been and are "magical" dates floating around all the time:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predictions_and_claims_for_the_Second_Coming_of_Christ
 
 
 

So are you saying trying to figure out dates for Bible chronology is a myopic quest? If you are, I tend to agree with you wholeheartedly. Focusing on the bigger picture makes all else pale into insignificance. If you have read any of my posts you will know I do not like to get overly concerned with numbers and dates, I just find it curious when the Slave does so. My motto is: I am dedicated to Jehovah, not a date. However, when someone quotes specific numbers and dates at me, and does this consistently year after year....for years, calling them fact, then I like to know where those numbers and dates come from. That's all.
I don't quite know what you mean by that. Who do you mean by "only ones" and what do you mean by "know"?

Exactly!
This is why I will take my cue from the 2017 convention video and say "I am dedicated to Jehovah, not a date".

I would say it is comforting to know that our enduring FAITHFUL till the end (whether that be Armageddon or death in old age or sickness) means we are guaranteed everlasting life. Why should we care about an overlapping generation? It is merely speculative, whereas on the other hand the promise of a bright future (whether that be through surviving Armageddon or being resurrected) isn't. It is a clear Biblical teaching easy to understand. The generation that Jesus spoke about was a literal generation in Jesus's day, for our day, the meaning is ambiguous (obviously).

Yes of course, I worded it wrong, I was referring to what Jesus said to the little flock. They will of course not only gain everlasting life but immortality, straight after they are transformed. We will have to wait until after the 1000 years, and then we will still not be immortal, but will have everlasting life.,,,
.I have no interest because it does not seem significant to me. We live or die for Jehovah, regardless of when the end comes.
It wouldn't be the first time, would it? (1914, 1925, 1975)
I will quote the view of one of the Governing Body (Sam Herd) "we are just looking, we are just learning, we are just touching things....."   in other words with their own admission the GB have incomplete knowledge, are fallible and do err. With this being the case, I feel there is nothing wrong with a "wait and see attitude" rather that taking everything they say as being infallible and making it a basis for how I live my life, whether I have a sense of urgency or not. We should live our life as if  Armageddon was to come tomorrow, regardless of whether someone says so or not. The Bible says so. It says we should be ready. "Therefore, beloved ones, since you are awaiting these things, do your utmost to be found finally by him spotless and unblemished and in peace" (2 Peter 3:14). No generation explanation needed there. Or do you, Tom, need a generation time limit as an incentive?  It is understandable that some who are aging or sick or suffering in some way cannot wait for the end to come soon. And then there are others who have family members that are not in yet, and they wish for more time.....It is Jehovah's time table and we can speculate generation or no generation all we like but it will come when he sees fit. The Bible says so.

So we should think like the scribes?