Anna

Standard fodder of TV soaps world wide.

Wow, that issue was settled almost 3/4 of a century ago and stated unequivocally that as a matter of conscience you cannot force students to pledge allegiance to the flag. Unsettling, but not surprising that this issue pops up now and again.
I commented to my wife last night when a commercial for a new movie was playing that there does seem to be more patriotic movies being produced this year then in times past. However, these are not directly war movies, but more directed at the home front and the need for citizens to support the military. I suppose soft-patriotism might be a way to describe them. They are not in your face patriotic, but rather seek to persuade by showing how soldiers are dedicated to country and family.
Back to the teacher, she does not seem to have gotten the message and is instead using the hard sell method to force student to violate their conscience. 

For the sake of this discussion I see the need to separate for a moment organizational procedures and spiritual matters, (although many times they are intertwined obviously). We understand organizational procedures to involve things like congregational protocol, certain policies on handling various matters etc. etc.
Spiritual things or doctrinal matters on the other hand are those that we learn when we study the Bible, meditate on, and put into practice what we learn in our lives. This must be what Jesus had in mind when he makes all those references to salvation.
Organizational matters are important for obvious reasons, and cooperation with those taking the lead in these matters is obviously important too.
However, when it comes to actual salvation on that day, are we perhaps going beyond what is written if we attach importance to a location, i.e. where we find ourselves physically, when it seems clear from the scriptures that it is our spiritual state that will decide the outcome for an individual at Armageddon?
  

I will add these scriptures:
(2 Peter 2:9) So, then, Jehovah knows how to rescue people of godly devotion out of trial, but to reserve unrighteous people to be destroyed on the day of judgment,
(Acts 3:22, 23) 22 In fact, Moses said: ‘Jehovah your God will raise up for you from among your brothers a prophet like me. You must listen to whatever he tells you. 23 Indeed, anyone who does not listen to that Prophet will be completely destroyed from among the people.. . .
(Matthew 17:5) 5 While he was still speaking, look! a bright cloud overshadowed them, and look! a voice out of the cloud said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved. Listen to him.” 
(1 Corinthians 4:6) 6 Now, brothers, these things I have applied to myself and A·polʹlos for your good, that through us you may learn the rule: “Do not go beyond the things that are written,” so that you may not be puffed up with pride, favoring one against the other. 
 
 

There is no direct statement in the publications that we must "hide." You have included some bigger questions about timing and survival and obedience, and those are worth discussing. However, the logic of the two paragraphs indicates nothing about "hiding" in any modern-day fulfillment of Isaiah 26:20. The point was only that, in this past example, survival depended on obedience to "commands" and the same will be true in the near future.

Regardless of the fact that I do not share much of the Governing Body's explanation, when did the time for Jerusalem's destruction approach them, they did not have to stand up and go? Did not they have to do something practical and immediately even if they were old and sick?
From what little I understood (little: I used the translator) would not it have been enough that they had faith in Jehovah?
Since Jehovah is Almighty and can protect His people in any circumstance, Christians of the first century could also decide not to leave Jerusalem, no?
Obviously there are many other things to say.
The instructions come from the Word of God (and will not come from a divine inspiration) so it is important to study the Bible to understand what we must do when approaching the Armageddon War.
But many of us believe they have understood everything and are not allowed to discuss or look.
They wait for instructions from others.

Good point. I wonder why this wasn't used as an example rather than Isaiah? I guess because we apply it to getting out of false religion and keep ourselves without spot from the world. But my main dispute really is that this is being used in a kind of foreboding way as a reason everyone should be obedient and cooperate with the Slave now.

Thank you. I wrote this late last night, and knew it wasn't really what I wanted to say. I wanted to talk about the "timing and survival and obedience"  I should have waited till my brain was in gear properly. Although the Slave has insinuated "hiding"  in the convention video, I understand that it was not meant specifically, as we really don't know. So I wanted the whole point of my post to be about the necessity to obey some additional command in order to survive, when already judged as sheep. I was wanting to reason on the fact that what would happen if as a sheep, you happen not to obey this specific command whatever it will be, "especially when it might seem illogical from a human point of view". Is it insinuating a kind of "Final Test" of loyalty? But does that make sense if already judged as sheep and marked for survival and is the concept of this kind of "Final Test" even scriptural? Are we not to be "found finally by him spotless and unblemished and in peace" without some additional requirement?
Why this additional need to prove our loyalty to God, by obeying the Slave to survive Armageddon, and why is the Slave using this as a reason to obey them now. Today, shouldn't we want to be cooperative with organizational arrangements  because it creates order and because we believe it is the right thing to do? Why does the Slave have to preface paragraph 20 in the book with the kind of sentiments in paragraph 19?
I will go and edit the title of the topic and and make some changes to the original post so that it reflects more of what I actually meant

Has anyone wondered about this?
God’s Kingdom Rules! Page 230, par.19 & 20  says:
How to Prepare Ourselves
19  How can we prepare ourselves for the earthshaking
events that are to come? The Watchtower stated some years
ago: “Survival will depend on obedience.” Why is that so?
The answer is found in a warning from Jehovah to the captive
Jews living in ancient Babylon. Jehovah foretold that
Babylon would be conquered, but what were God’s people
to do to prepare themselves for that event? Jehovah stated:
“Go, my people, enter your inner rooms, and shut your
doors behind you. Hide yourself for a brief moment until
the wrath has passed by.” (Isa. 26:20) Note the verbs in this
verse: “go,” “enter,” “shut,” “hide”—all are in the imperative
mood; they are commands. The Jews who heeded those
commands would have stayed in their houses, away from
the conquering soldiers out in the streets. Hence, their survival
depended on obeying Jehovah’s instructions.[2]
 
20  What is the lesson for us? As in the case of those ancient
servants of God, our survival of coming events will
depend on our obedience to Jehovah’s instructions. (Isa.
30:21) Such instructions come to us through the congregation
arrangement. Therefore, we want to develop heartfelt
obedience to the guidance we are receiving. (1 John 5:3)
If we do so today, we will be more inclined to obey willingly
in the future and thus receive the protection of our Father,
Jehovah, and our King, Jesus. (Zeph. 2:3) That divine
protection will allow us to witness firsthand how God’s
Kingdom will completely remove its enemies. What an unforgettable
event that will be!
Prior to those paragraphs, and in harmony with Matthew 24, it was made clear that the sheep and the goats will have already been judged, the sheep being marked for survival. Why would there be further need to follow some other instructions in order to survive? Matthew 24 does not indicate anything about additional instructions as a criterion for survival. In fact it says “then two men will be in the field; one will be taken along and the other abandoned.  Two women will be grinding at the hand mill; one will be taken along and the other abandoned.” This indicates that people will be in ordinary situations, when they are “saved”. The rest of the gospels focus on doing God’s will and following in Christ’s footsteps as the criterion for gaining salvation. "For this is what the love of God means, that we observe his commandments; and yet his commandments are not burdensome" 1John 5:3. None of the Greek scriptures talk about any special instructions that will have to be obeyed during the great tribulation and Armageddon.  It is only Isaiah that mentions this in relation to surviving the overthrow of Babylon, with similar references to the Passover in Egypt and perhaps also Noah entering the Ark.
I wonder why the Slave thinks that the same pattern will be followed when the ultimate destruction comes, as if Jehovah is not capable of saving individuals wherever they may be. Looking at it from a practical point of view, not everyone will be physically able to “go” or “shut” or “hide”. Think of the old and infirm.  The scripture in Zepheniah 2:3 talks about doing specific things well before  the day of Jehovah's anger. “Seek Jehovah, all you meek ones of the earth, Who observe his righteous decrees, seek righteousness, seek meekness. Probably you will be concealed on the day of Jehovah’s anger”.
The paragraph that follows,  (Par. 20) talks about us learning to obey the Slave now, so that when the time comes we will “obey” the Slave then, because our salvation depends on it.  But the scriptures clearly show our salvation depends on lots of other things, one of them being enduring faithfully to the end.  This was the symposium at this year’s Do not Give up convention as well. This included practical steps to “Run With Endurance”
·         Run to Win! (1 Corinthians 9:24)
·         Train Diligently (1 Corinthians 9:25-27)
·         Let Go of Unnecessary Burdens (Hebrews 12:1)
·         Imitate Good Examples (Hebrews 12:2, 3)
·         Eat Nutritious Food (Hebrews 5:12-14)
·         Drink Plenty of Water (Revelation 22:17)
·         Obey the Rules of the Contest (2 Timothy 2:5)
·         Be Confident of Gaining the Prize (Romans 15:13)
That pertains to everything we do now. And those are the things we will be judged on. That’s how we prepare ourselves surely? Not by obeying some last minute instructions as if Jehovah is not capable of saving each individual Witness wherever they may be, since the whole performance is going to involve supernatural powers anyway....Plus, it has been speculated that some may die at Armageddon, not by Jehovah's hand, but by other extenuating circumstances, even by being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
I will do some more research on this....
 

Has anyone wondered about this?
God’s Kingdom Rules! Page 230, par.19 & 20  says:
How to Prepare Ourselves
19  How can we prepare ourselves for the earthshaking
events that are to come? The Watchtower stated some years
ago: “Survival will depend on obedience.” Why is that so?
The answer is found in a warning from Jehovah to the captive
Jews living in ancient Babylon. Jehovah foretold that
Babylon would be conquered, but what were God’s people
to do to prepare themselves for that event? Jehovah stated:
“Go, my people, enter your inner rooms, and shut your
doors behind you. Hide yourself for a brief moment until
the wrath has passed by.” (Isa. 26:20) Note the verbs in this
verse: “go,” “enter,” “shut,” “hide”—all are in the imperative
mood; they are commands. The Jews who heeded those
commands would have stayed in their houses, away from
the conquering soldiers out in the streets. Hence, their survival
depended on obeying Jehovah’s instructions.[2]
 
20  What is the lesson for us? As in the case of those ancient
servants of God, our survival of coming events will
depend on our obedience to Jehovah’s instructions. (Isa.
30:21) Such instructions come to us through the congregation
arrangement. Therefore, we want to develop heartfelt
obedience to the guidance we are receiving. (1 John 5:3)
If we do so today, we will be more inclined to obey willingly
in the future and thus receive the protection of our Father,
Jehovah, and our King, Jesus. (Zeph. 2:3) That divine
protection will allow us to witness firsthand how God’s
Kingdom will completely remove its enemies. What an unforgettable
event that will be!
Prior to those paragraphs, and in harmony with Matthew 24, it was made clear that the sheep and the goats will have already been judged, the sheep being marked for survival. Why would there be further need to follow some other instructions in order to survive? Matthew 24 does not indicate anything about additional instructions as a criterion for survival. In fact it says “then two men will be in the field; one will be taken along and the other abandoned.  Two women will be grinding at the hand mill; one will be taken along and the other abandoned.” This indicates that people will be in ordinary situations, when they are “saved”. The rest of the gospels focus on doing God’s will and following in Christ’s footsteps as the criterion for gaining salvation. "For this is what the love of God means, that we observe his commandments; and yet his commandments are not burdensome" 1John 5:3. None of the Greek scriptures talk about any special instructions that will have to be obeyed during the great tribulation and Armageddon.  It is only Isaiah that mentions this in relation to surviving the overthrow of Babylon, with similar references to the Passover in Egypt and perhaps also Noah entering the Ark.
I wonder why the Slave thinks that the same pattern will be followed when the ultimate destruction comes, as if Jehovah is not capable of saving individuals wherever they may be. Looking at it from a practical point of view, not everyone will be physically able to “go” or “shut” or “hide”. Think of the old and infirm.  The scripture in Zepheniah 2:3 talks about doing specific things well before  the day of Jehovah's anger. “Seek Jehovah, all you meek ones of the earth, Who observe his righteous decrees, seek righteousness, seek meekness. Probably you will be concealed on the day of Jehovah’s anger”.
The paragraph that follows,  (Par. 20) talks about us learning to obey the Slave now, so that when the time comes we will “obey” the Slave then, because our salvation depends on it.  But the scriptures clearly show our salvation depends on lots of other things, one of them being enduring faithfully to the end.  This was the symposium at this year’s Do not Give up convention as well. This included practical steps to “Run With Endurance”
·         Run to Win! (1 Corinthians 9:24)
·         Train Diligently (1 Corinthians 9:25-27)
·         Let Go of Unnecessary Burdens (Hebrews 12:1)
·         Imitate Good Examples (Hebrews 12:2, 3)
·         Eat Nutritious Food (Hebrews 5:12-14)
·         Drink Plenty of Water (Revelation 22:17)
·         Obey the Rules of the Contest (2 Timothy 2:5)
·         Be Confident of Gaining the Prize (Romans 15:13)
That pertains to everything we do now. And those are the things we will be judged on. That’s how we prepare ourselves surely? Not by obeying some last minute instructions as if Jehovah is not capable of saving each individual Witness wherever they may be, since the whole performance is going to involve supernatural powers anyway....Plus, it has been speculated that some may die at Armageddon, not by Jehovah's hand, but by other extenuating circumstances, even by being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
I will do some more research on this....
 

He probably became depressed because he couldn't have her. When they are that young, romantic love is so overwhelming that you are willing to die if you can't have that person. It's an age old story, older than Romeo & Juliette.  If he was older, he might have been able to reason it out a little bit more rationally, and perhaps even do it his own way. It is tragic. I feel so sorry for his mother

Well (this has become one of my favorite quotes lately) the truth is truth no matter who says it

This information is publicly available from court transcripts and records:
The $4000/day sanctions refer to Osbaldo Padron/Gonzalo Campos trial where Irwin Zalkin is seeking documents in order to build his case against WT.
The perpetrator, Gonzalo Campos, (baptized in 1980, appointed a ministerial servant in 1988,  elder in 1993 and serving as  a pioneer for several years) allegedly molested at least 8 known children in various congregations between 1982 and 1995. In 2010 he fled to Mexico.
6 of these cases against WT were settled out of court. The 7th case was the victim Jose Lopez, who was awarded 13.5 million by the WT, and the last, 8th case, is the victim Osbaldo Padron.
Zalkin is seeking proof that WT was aware of Campo’s first child molestation (or the allegation thereof) and that despite this knowledge, Campos managed to molest at least 7 more victims in several congregations.  WT allegedly was told of the first case of molestation in 1982, by the victim, and made a record of it. This is one of the records Zalkin wants.
Further, the key to the Padron/Campos investigation is a letter that was sent to the body of elders in 1997 based on the 1991 Kingdom Ministry Question box which states:
 "When a publisher moves to another area, what should be done to assist in the transfer to a new congregation?
As soon as a publisher arrives from another congregation, the congregation secretary should obtain from the publisher the name of his former congregation and the name and address of the secretary of that congregation. He should then write to the secretary of the former congregation, requesting the Congregation’s Publisher Record card and a letter of introduction. The secretary receiving this request should respond without delay.—See Organized to Accomplish Our Ministry, pages 104-5. etc......."
 According to Zalkin, those “transfer” or “introduction” letters with regard to Gonzalo Campos would prove that WT knew about Gonzalo Campo’s previous molestations.
It is those transfer/introduction letters that are costing us $4000/day.
If I am not mistaken, Zalkin is asking for every transfer/introduction letter the elders have ever written in every congregation since 1982
WT did apparently oblige, and did make available some letters, however they were apparently so heavily redacted, that they were of no use. (the names of perpetrators, congregations, as well as the addresses and contact information of the congregation, towns where abuse occurred, and law enforcement agencies that investigated claims were all redacted).
The court is not expecting to know the names of the elders handling the cases, nor the names of the victims.
 
 

One thing we need to remember is to stay objective. Just because ex-witnesses whip up countless cases and horror stories does not mean the situation is as extreme as it sounds. I can afford to say this because I am a nobody. It doesn't matter if someone accuses me of cover ups  etc. I am not the Org. However the org. cannot said anything like this even if it is true.  Of course one abused child is one too many, and of course even one case should not be minimized. But I can afford to say that in my whole time as a JW, in many congregations in several countries I have not come across this problem, and believe me this problem does not stay hidden, Witnesses do talk and gossip and word gets around pretty quickly. Not only that, but I have seen elders and ex-elders who would have information admit they have not come across one case. Even one ex- member of the GB admitted that the problem is not extreme and that he himself was not personally aware of a single case. Evidently there have been and are cases. There is such a plethora of people from all kinds of social backgrounds and levels of spiritual maturity in the worldwide brotherhood that it makes it statistically impossible not to have cases of child sexual abuse, sad as it sounds. The other thing is acquiring facts about these cases. As I already mentioned above, these are extremely hard to come by, and without knowing facts, we cannot really make a fair judgement...
Apparently, there is a  handbook on child abuse guidelines which are made available to any publisher who asks for one. Has anyone done this? I haven't since I no longer have small children.

I doubt this is true. In ex- JW circles definitely, but I have to this date never met anyone who mentions this issue door to door, or anywhere else. Just because ex- JW sites are full of this doesn't mean people in general associate us with this problem which is rife in every circle of society. In our neighborhood I counted 8 within a 3 mile radius, with one who has been convicted of sexual assault of the 1st degree on an 8 year old and he lives down the street from my house. Bare in mind these are convicted offenders, there are more who haven't been convicted, very much for the same reasons as some JWs are not convicted....

This information is publicly available from court transcripts and records:
The $4000/day sanctions refer to Osbaldo Padron/Gonzalo Campos trial where Irwin Zalkin is seeking documents in order to build his case against WT.
The perpetrator, Gonzalo Campos, (baptized in 1980, appointed a ministerial servant in 1988,  elder in 1993 and serving as  a pioneer for several years) allegedly molested at least 8 known children in various congregations between 1982 and 1995. In 2010 he fled to Mexico.
6 of these cases against WT were settled out of court. The 7th case was the victim Jose Lopez, who was awarded 13.5 million by the WT, and the last, 8th case, is the victim Osbaldo Padron.
Zalkin is seeking proof that WT was aware of Campo’s first child molestation (or the allegation thereof) and that despite this knowledge, Campos managed to molest at least 7 more victims in several congregations.  WT allegedly was told of the first case of molestation in 1982, by the victim, and made a record of it. This is one of the records Zalkin wants.
Further, the key to the Padron/Campos investigation is a letter that was sent to the body of elders in 1997 based on the 1991 Kingdom Ministry Question box which states:
 "When a publisher moves to another area, what should be done to assist in the transfer to a new congregation?
As soon as a publisher arrives from another congregation, the congregation secretary should obtain from the publisher the name of his former congregation and the name and address of the secretary of that congregation. He should then write to the secretary of the former congregation, requesting the Congregation’s Publisher Record card and a letter of introduction. The secretary receiving this request should respond without delay.—See Organized to Accomplish Our Ministry, pages 104-5. etc......."
 According to Zalkin, those “transfer” or “introduction” letters with regard to Gonzalo Campos would prove that WT knew about Gonzalo Campo’s previous molestations.
It is those transfer/introduction letters that are costing us $4000/day.
If I am not mistaken, Zalkin is asking for every transfer/introduction letter the elders have ever written in every congregation since 1982
WT did apparently oblige, and did make available some letters, however they were apparently so heavily redacted, that they were of no use. (the names of perpetrators, congregations, as well as the addresses and contact information of the congregation, towns where abuse occurred, and law enforcement agencies that investigated claims were all redacted).
The court is not expecting to know the names of the elders handling the cases, nor the names of the victims.
 
 

Well (this has become one of my favorite quotes lately) the truth is truth no matter who says it

Well (this has become one of my favorite quotes lately) the truth is truth no matter who says it

Well (this has become one of my favorite quotes lately) the truth is truth no matter who says it

Are Jehovah's Witnesses a part of the community?
As the ARC pointed out .... matters not reported to the police as a matter of NATURAL CONSCIENCE ... puts the community as a whole at risk .... not JUST Jehovah's Witnesses.

Brilliant, James.
They are a quarter of a percent of the U.S. population, yet they account for one third of all suicides! There may be something to your observation, though. Just Saturday as I was entering the assembly hall, I had to step over ten dead bodies.
I mean, some viewpoints are too stupid to countenance.

Help me out on a call.
A sister placed magazines with a college kid, conversed a while, and he said she could call back. His father, however, would not likely be welcoming, he said.
She gave the call to me. I made it. He was not home. His father was, and the son had been right. The father was not welcoming. Neither did he tell me to get lost. Well – he did, but it was not in the ordering sort of tone, and I said I had not been looking for him anyway, but his son. He was the family head, and I told him I would not try to sneak around him, but did he mind if I called again on his son? The kid was smart, I told the old man, and that must mean his parents are smart. He said his son was his own person, and if he wanted to speak with me again, that was up to him.
I called again. The son, of course, was not home. The unwelcoming dad was. He was in a wheelchair, as he had been the first time. One bumper sticker on the family car read “Born right the first time.” The other said: “There are death squads in America; they’re called insurance companies.” I think we overdo our advice to take cues from bumper stickers, but this time the Ten Commandments could not have told me more. All that remains is to fill in a few blanks.
Sometimes I open with Job 34:10 – “it is unthinkable for the true God to act wickedly.” I like the verse, I told him, because some people think he does act wickedly. And some see all the nasty things going down and say: “I don’t think there is a true God.” It plays into the theme of why there is suffering, I told the fellow.
He wasn’t nice. I made clear that the instant he told me to go away, I would. We were conversing through the storm door, which added a measure of challenge. I almost reached to open it, for it was awkward for him to do so, but I decided it would be a bit much. He laughed derisively at my Bible verse. “You’re here because you want to tell me about suffering?” he shot back from his wheelchair. I answered: “No. I want you to tell me. I don’t have to talk at all. I want you to invite me in and tell me.”
I said: “Look – everyone has a story, but no one wants to hear it. So I will,. I've got the time.” He’ll never see me again anyway – what does he have to lose? I told him. He answered sarcastically that he could never get over the Christians’ “need” to “save” people. Look, he said, he was one of the 5% who are atheist. “Yeah – I’m here to change that,” I answered. This is far more blunt than I would ever be ordinarily, but I decided I would answer him in kind. It was not even true, really, or at least it was not a goal I realistically held. I also told him that he was right – we are Christian, and it is a bit much that we should appear out of thin air, but that Jehovah’s Witnesses are in a league of their own.
He responded by saying his number one man from his working days had been a Witness, and that he had been the nicest, most reliable fellow in the world. “Yeah, we’re all nice,” I said. “You think I’m nice? Wait to you get a load of Clyde,” I motioned to the brother behind me, who could barely make out through the door what the man was saying. His praise for the brother he once supervised at work didn’t yield me as much ground as might be expected. After two or three more minutes maneuvering, I told him that while I would like to know more, one can only go far, and we would take our leave. He didn’t cry over the prospect, but had never taken the bait of saying I should go.
I am not sure what to do. I will let it go, probably. One more call in a few months to see if anything has moved, and then I am done. Maybe before, but I have no plans at the present. Any advice?

It is in the thread. You have been silent for some time. Read up on what you have missed.

Yeah, you're a legend ........in your own mind!
Did you miss this request?

Excellent! A church with which you 85% agree. When are you transferring?