Anna

You are being too harsh, maybe this is just a 14 year old kid you're talking to.

Oh it's just vomit dog being bored. And like a naughty bored child he's looking for attention through engaging in outrageous behaviour. This of course will get him the wrong kind of attention because as soon as @The Librarianreturns from sipping Margaritas by the pool, he will find himself out on his rear, I mean ear. For now, he is just collecting more negative points....

YEAH! A welcome topic! THIS one plays into my strengths. I hate 'em.
I hate 'em, I hate 'em, I hate 'em, I hate 'em, I hate 'em, I hate 'em. 
Whenever I go past a hospital, I top off of the tank with a transfusion so as to show JWs what I think of them!

He he he! By the way, I think the Librarian is on holiday again, otherwise surely she/he wouldn't be tolerating that sewer discussion between you and JTR, and the Rolex affair with me...

And yes, we all look forward to serving Jehovah in the absence of evil and wickedness. But remember, Ezekiel was told to start his marking work at the "sanctuary".
 
Brother, what is your standing in your congregation? There are troubling overtones to your apathetic reasoning about disobedience.

I don't think so either Melinda, who would want to be turned upside down

Hear hear!
A brilliant performance!

"This concludes this evening's performance of 'The 1914 Overture,' with Maestro Bruce Q conducting the Forum Orchestra and Chorale, with JTR acccompanying on the cymbals. Maestro Q brilliantly led the orchestra through a strident interpretation of 'Hail to the Chief,' before finally rallying all for a stirring rendition of 'We Will Be Loyal With Caveats!' Our thanks to @The Librarianfor keeping the concert hall open past her bedtime. Tune in next week when we will hear a performance of the timeless opera 'The Overlappers.'"

One day I was looking at my cloth roll of wax carving tools, on the table, out of their sewn sleeves in the roll (they look a LOT like dental pick instruments), and from behind me, my eldest son asked me what they were ... he knowing I did not do my own dental work.
Over my shoulder I gave him my best Jack Nicholson "Here's Johnny!" look with a maniacal grin, and said "... this is how I get people who lie to me to tell the truth!"
You know, raising three children, I cannot remember any one of them EVER lying to me.
.
 

Sounds like a shibboleth. Closet apostates would likely let their yes mean no.
But the answer is an obvious YES.
Elders of all stripes should be qualified to teach. But the elders whom we trust the most to teach are the ones included in the "presiding" teaching positions in each of our local congregations. Therefore, by extension, we should also consider it right and organizationally correct, to include our most qualified elders in the the "presiding" teaching positions of the overall worldwide congregation. The Bible does not speak of a separate body within the congregational body, and we cannot speak of this body of elders as our Head or our Leader. Nevertheless, the group of elders whom we refer to as the Governing Body fills a key presiding position in the congregation. Therefore all the following scriptures should apply without hesitation:
(1 Thessalonians 5:12, 13) 12 Now we request you, brothers, to show respect for those who are working hard among you and presiding over you in the Lord and admonishing you; 13 and to give them extraordinary consideration in love because of their work.. . .
(1 Timothy 5:17) 17 Let the elders who preside in a fine way be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard in speaking and teaching. . .
(Hebrews 13:17) 17 Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over you as those who will render an account, . . .
(Hebrews 13:7) 7 Remember those who are taking the lead among you, who have spoken the word of God to you, and as you contemplate how their conduct turns out, imitate their faith.
(Romans 12:4-8) 4 For just as we have in one body many members, but the members do not all have the same function, 5 so we, although many, are one body in union with Christ, but individually we are members belonging to one another. 6 Since, then, we have gifts that differ according to the undeserved kindness given to us, if it is of prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith; 7 or if it is a ministry, let us be at this ministry; or the one who teaches, let him be at his teaching; 8 or the one who encourages, let him give encouragement; the one who distributes, let him do it liberally; the one who presides, let him do it diligently; the one who shows mercy, let him do it cheerfully.
(1 Corinthians 12:27-29) 27 Now you are Christ’s body, and each of you individually is a member. 28 And God has assigned the respective ones in the congregation: first, apostles; second, prophets; third, teachers; then powerful works; then gifts of healings; helpful services; abilities to direct; different tongues. 29 Not all are apostles, are they? Not all are prophets, are they? Not all are teachers, are they?

Well I wasn't going to go into a detailed explanation right here, because I was hoping for a new thread, but since you've already carried on, all I have to say is; I go along pretty much the same lines as you.  I like to go by not what they say, so much, but by the testimony and overall history and reputation of what has been achieved while these men have been in office as the FDS, (regardless of whether some believe that or not). Although inevitable blunders and embarrassments have been apparent, on the WHOLE, because of evidence, I believe the organization of Jehovah’s witnesses is definitely keeping itself morally and spiritually clean, seems to have Jehovah’s backing, and last but not least  we owe this organization (with the GB at the helm) our thanks, because without them we might still be believing that we will burn in hell, that God has three heads and no name, and that, if we are lucky, we will float off  someplace to play the harp for all eternity, after dying of lung cancer or some complication due to a dubious life style....I am sure I could think of many more but this will suffice for now...actually True Tom has already mentioned most.

Well I wasn't going to go into a detailed explanation right here, because I was hoping for a new thread, but since you've already carried on, all I have to say is; I go along pretty much the same lines as you.  I like to go by not what they say, so much, but by the testimony and overall history and reputation of what has been achieved while these men have been in office as the FDS, (regardless of whether some believe that or not). Although inevitable blunders and embarrassments have been apparent, on the WHOLE, because of evidence, I believe the organization of Jehovah’s witnesses is definitely keeping itself morally and spiritually clean, seems to have Jehovah’s backing, and last but not least  we owe this organization (with the GB at the helm) our thanks, because without them we might still be believing that we will burn in hell, that God has three heads and no name, and that, if we are lucky, we will float off  someplace to play the harp for all eternity, after dying of lung cancer or some complication due to a dubious life style....I am sure I could think of many more but this will suffice for now...actually True Tom has already mentioned most.

Well I wasn't going to go into a detailed explanation right here, because I was hoping for a new thread, but since you've already carried on, all I have to say is; I go along pretty much the same lines as you.  I like to go by not what they say, so much, but by the testimony and overall history and reputation of what has been achieved while these men have been in office as the FDS, (regardless of whether some believe that or not). Although inevitable blunders and embarrassments have been apparent, on the WHOLE, because of evidence, I believe the organization of Jehovah’s witnesses is definitely keeping itself morally and spiritually clean, seems to have Jehovah’s backing, and last but not least  we owe this organization (with the GB at the helm) our thanks, because without them we might still be believing that we will burn in hell, that God has three heads and no name, and that, if we are lucky, we will float off  someplace to play the harp for all eternity, after dying of lung cancer or some complication due to a dubious life style....I am sure I could think of many more but this will suffice for now...actually True Tom has already mentioned most.

Well I wasn't going to go into a detailed explanation right here, because I was hoping for a new thread, but since you've already carried on, all I have to say is; I go along pretty much the same lines as you.  I like to go by not what they say, so much, but by the testimony and overall history and reputation of what has been achieved while these men have been in office as the FDS, (regardless of whether some believe that or not). Although inevitable blunders and embarrassments have been apparent, on the WHOLE, because of evidence, I believe the organization of Jehovah’s witnesses is definitely keeping itself morally and spiritually clean, seems to have Jehovah’s backing, and last but not least  we owe this organization (with the GB at the helm) our thanks, because without them we might still be believing that we will burn in hell, that God has three heads and no name, and that, if we are lucky, we will float off  someplace to play the harp for all eternity, after dying of lung cancer or some complication due to a dubious life style....I am sure I could think of many more but this will suffice for now...actually True Tom has already mentioned most.

Yes, of course I'll go along with that. When I bought my ticket from Holy Bus Lines, it was their photos I saw on the terminal wall. That was never hidden from me.
I also know that they may hit a pothole or three, for the weather is abysmal and the road is uncharted.  Moreover, they do not require me to sit up straight at all times - they allow me to stretch, talk to my neighbor, and use the bathroom.
I'd be surprised if the date goes. It's been around forever and it was reaffirmed at the Regional. The herd is running another way at present, but we all know about running with the herd. Perceptions can change.
Still, if it goes, it goes. It's not why I'm here. Nobody else can explain why God permits suffering. Nobody else can explain what happens to the dead, why we die at all, and what hope for those who have. Nobody else can explain why human governments do nothing but foul the nest, so that I am not stuck with the pathetic hope that the next leader, this time for sure, will fix things. Nobody else preaches the good news of the kingdom, nor unifies those responding. Nobody else would have kept me safe from the new morality.  Perhaps my marriage would not be intact, for few teach the Bible's message of yielding to the other person. The Bible would be an unassembled jigsaw puzzle in my closet were it not for the GB spearheading the work others feel free to criticize but do not offer to do. I owe them loyalty. I will pay it.
If understandings change, you do damage control, hope for the best, and pray for Jehovah's continued goodness.  It has been that way ever since Jesus spoke about 'drinking his blood.' 
You can't change people, Bruce. They'll be what they'll be. To some extent, the more one carries on, the more fuel is added to the fire. The less fuel offered, the quicker it goes out.

Try counting sheep. Writing apparently does not do the trick.

"For at present we see in a hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face to face." 

Unfortunately, one cannot know anything on the internet.
Shiwiii is actually a circuit overseer who is having a bad day.

Why should we get so upset and cry “Apostate!", over a date?
You are just attacking the person, not presenting a reasonable and valid counter argument. A few others don’t agree with everything JWInsider says on here, however they are able to present a respectful reply, keeping to the topic, without ad hominem attacks and insults. Perhaps we are making a mistake holding onto 1914 as if it was some precious oracle that under no circumstances could ever change. We tend to get frustrated with Trinitarians and criticize them for believing in the trinity because  that word is not even in the Bible, but neither is 1914. In the grand scheme of things Jesus became King and is King, and as such he will bring about what sincere Christians pray for, and what we as Jehovah’s Witnesses preach to all people. There is no doubt that 1914 and the generation teaching keep us on our toes spiritually, whereas on the contrary, Christendom is sleeping. Just yesterday the brother who gave us a local needs part reminded us of how close the end is. The convention is about how close the end is. We’ve been saying how lose the end is since Russel’s days. The common thread is, that ALL would like to see the end come in THEIR life time. Russel hoped it would come in 1914, Rutherford hoped it would come in 1925, Franz and Knorr hoped in 1975, then after that there were no more dates, but the former generation teaching as taught by the old school GB of the 80’s suggested within the end of the 20th Century, and now, with the latest formation of the GB, and the refined teaching of the overlapping generation, within the next 35 years, in which case the two youngest members of the GB could still be alive to see it. I personally do not have a problem with that. There is absolutely nothing wrong with anticipating and wishing the end would come in one’s life time. There is nothing unscriptural about it. In fact the opposite, it has scriptural backing as we know. And it WILL come in somebody’s life time. But to staunchly insist on something despite obvious evidence to the contrary is crazy. This is why we have adjusted our understanding on so many things! We do not staunchly insist on something that just doesn’t seem right (although sometimes it takes a while). However, there are some individuals, even on this forum, who insist on believing something even when it makes no scriptural sense and even insist we must be loyal to an idea even if it is bad!
IF the system goes on for another 50 or so years, I very much doubt 1914 will remain. It will be adjusted somehow, it will have to be, because elapsed time will become the dictator for a new understanding  just like time made necessary the creation of the overlapping generation. And who knows, perhaps JWInsider’s scriptural interpretation will be adopted, or some other interpretation. It would not be the first time. On the other hand, if the end comes before that, then obviously there will be no need to even think about 1914. So either way, it doesn’t make much difference in the grand scheme of things. Just think, when we are all (hopefully) sitting at dinner in the new world, and someone mentions 1914, or 1975, or the overlapping generation or any other chronological theory,  we will probably just smile and think “those were the days, when we were still in nappies (diapers), and we just did the best we could”. I don’t think anybody is going to be saying “see, you were wrong”! either way.
As regards the scriptures you quoted about apostates, Acts 20:30, Rom 16:17,18. Titus 3:10,11. Do not apply to anyone on here, really.  I mean JTR, flattering speech? Are you kidding? And I don’t think JWInsider is interested in drawing disciples after himself.
And as for this one:  "They publicly declare that they know God, but they disown him by their works, because they are detestable and disobedient and NOT APPROVED FOR GOOD WORK OF ANY SORT."  Titus 1:16.Well, that’s a bit judgemental isn’t it? Do you know their works? I mean respectfully discussing alternative scriptural ideas of ambiguous scriptures (not core teachings!) means that those are bad works?  Are you saying that those who discuss these things are automatically detestable and disobedient and unapproved for good work of any sort? I discuss these things quite often with my step dad. He is an elder.
As for Ray Franz’s book, I have heard it is in the Bethel locked library, or used to be (can someone verify this?) In any case, his book has led many away from Jehovah and the organization. Many of them have become atheists. I don’t think Ray has come up with any new teachings, he merely related what he heard and saw when he was privy to what goes on behind closed doors on Wednesdays (and other days).  Of course some of it was intentionally coloured, (after all he was upset that he got the boot)  and a lot of it was his opinion and/or interpretation of what was going on. But he did succeed in demystifying the GB, and unfortunately for some, this spelled the end of their trust in them and the organization and with it Jehovah. Why? No doubt because these people were basing their faith on dates and men.  Nowadays, the GB are "demystifying" themselves for us. Increasingly, WT articles, books and assembly items remind us of their imperfection, remind us that they are also the domestics, and remind us that they need our prayers and that in the end each man and woman will stand for themselves in front of Jehovah....

Well since I am no longer wanted and this place is infested with apostates as my final act as terminator:
in·fes·ta·tion ˌinfəˈstāSHən/ noun   the presence of an unusually large number of apostates or animals in a place, typically so as to cause damage or disease. "infestation with apostates is widespread"

Who is trying to prove Jesus was not a king? The Scriptures are abundantly clear that Jesus, a king, can become a king in the same way that Jehovah, a king, can become a king. They are also abundantly clear that Jesus, UNLIKE Jehovah, has not always been a king. (Despite those who might seek to muse on how Jehovah could have been king when alone).Comp.Ps.90:2.
That even a human can become a king whilst being a king is shown in the words of Abner when negotiating with David: "Then Abʹner said to David: “Let me go and gather all Israel together to my lord the king, so that they may make a covenant with you, and you will become king over all that you desire"" 2Sam.3:21.
As long as those who are unaware of or, who choose not to recognise, a king's authority remain, or there are those who are yet to recognise it, there is room for an existing king to "become king".
Hence, Ph.2:10 "in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground" which is yet to be fufilled, itself only an echo of Is.45:23: "By myself I have sworn; The word has gone out of my mouth in righteousness, And it will not return: To me every knee will bend, Every tongue will swear loyalty".
And, once again, 1Cor.15:28: "But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone". With regard to this last text, we have no  problem accepting that Jesus was not aready subject to Jehovah when he is spoken of subjecting himself at a future time here do we? So in that act, Jehovah "becomes king" to His Son, Jesus, whilst both He and Jesus are still kings, does He not?
Yes, both Jesus and His Father and Sovereign Lord, Jehovah, will both be kings and become kings on many future occasions, as they have done so in the past. Compare Isaiah 9:7: "To the increase of his rulership...there wil be no end"
Alas, there is no fuel for the fire on the back of this head ! (figuratively of course)
 

In view of the latest writing about types/anti-types, ('We're done') I wonder if there will be spillover as to how we view Revelation, which fairly begs for the application of anti-types

I suppose you’re aware your comments are most derogatory and, in my opinion, unfortunate.
For we, the JW's, one of the most reprehensible sins is to be considered as apostate. The Insight book declares under this term:
“…a withdrawal or abandonment of the true cause, worship, and service of God, and hence an abandonment of what one has previously professed and a total desertion of principles or faith. I don’t view myself as apostate, I’ve not abandoned my faith nor my religion.
You probably are worried, sincerely worried and indignant because some in this forum should ponder these principles:
·        Jud 8 “despising authority, and speaking abusively of glorious ones” ·        1Cor 1:10 “you should all speak in agreement and that there should be no divisions among you, but that you may be completely united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.” Quoting the Insight-Jonah reference:
“Another evidence testifying to the authenticity of this Bible book is its candor. Jonah’s improper attitude toward his commission and concerning God’s action in sparing the Ninevites is not covered over” This candor is one of the evidences the Bible is the book of God. There is no cover over any sin, mistake or lack of judgment of the anointed ones leading the people.
Where have we learned that Noah got drunk, or David killed Uriah? In false religion’s books of that period?
How did we have knowledge about the fight between Paul and Barnabas, or the lack of judgment of Peter? Through Simon the magician posts?
Why Jehovah didn’t consider it proper to cover these mistakes? You don’t think the Bible is an apostate book because is full with faults of God’s people in all ages, do you?
And these mistakes were presented as such, as errors. Not in the style: “well, we, despite all almost hit the mark.”
The situation is that if we read in the Bible about errors this is proof of their humility. But if we read or talk about our present day mistakes, we’re apostates.
The motivation @JW Insider, me and others share is, precisely avoiding others have the necessity to reach to poisonous places to find some facts we have denied. We have denied because are hidden or “colored”
Regarding the coloration process @JW Insider has provided a lot of PROOFS. I just wish to recall one I’ve written about. Recently we study in our Watchtower study there were errors in last century, for example when the Watchtower gave support to the peace initiative of president Wilson. But, in reality, the petition in our magazine not was a petition to pray for peace, instead, to pray for USA would win the war.
Now, what is it better, to hide this (lack of sincerity / half-truth)? But the information, the real information is spread all around the world. You can easily find the President Wilson exact petition and the word by word article in the 1918 Watchtower.
Regarding the late point. Why have I had to reach “dangerous” sites to get all the Watchtower articles, from 1879? Why my religion didn’t provide a “safe” place to download absolutely all this older literature?
If you read our posts with other glasses you easily see that we’re trying to justify the brothers on charge. But no describing them as “almost-inspired” but as they really are: mere humans.
Now, you mention “unrepentant ones should not be disfellowshipped” but I never have mention this. Expulsion has Bible basis. But the “mechanism” to dealt with has been subject to changes. Do you grant the possibility of new changes? If so, these new changes will try to fix injustices or problems with our position. Meanwhile, what should we do with these injustices? These problems are openly seen by the world and by a lot of loyal brothers.
You also mention that if I don’t believe that Christ begun to rule in 1914 I should leave my religion! Should have I abandon when the 1975 affair?
What backbone, determinant, core teaching is 1914 for you! But not hundreds, nor thousands, but hundreds of thousands of brothers can’t explain which is the Bible basis for this teaching!! Should they leave their religion?
I and other with this posture firmly believe we’re serving with the people Jehovah is using for His purpose. But, remember, @bruceq, sometimes God’s people has needed cleaning. Why not now? Is, perhaps, more relevant the role of the present-day GB than the older times apostles? If Christ had to clean the seven congregations (in spite of the apostles influence) why in these days is impossible a new cleaning, in spite of the GB influence?

Since that is the case, it probably is less of an issue than you suppose. He makes the same point himself in his ever-so-lengthy rebuttal - so lengthy that I nodded off before I got to it.
Does JWI need an apologist? He has not asked for one. Nevertheless, perhaps I am like him in a few regards. Perhaps I am more like him than he himself is.
1.) I am a good writer, if one is not fussy.
2.) I can explain Jehovah's Witnesses inside and out - at least the portions of it that interest me. Not all do, such as things that happened in Russell's time. Who cares? These days complete villains makeover their image in decades
3.) I am not good at anything else.
Therefore, if I choose to offer my 'gift,'  it is going to be writing about the faith I know so well. I can and do write about other things, but the dialogue ultimately comes around to the same thing: 'it's all screwed up because we 'need the kingdom.''
Now, if my gift is anything other than writing, I can offer it to my heart's content, and receive nothing but praise for it. But if I write about the thing that most interests me, I am subject to misinterpretation by some on my own team who think that is wrong. Of course, i could write about how we know there is no hell-fire or trinity, but that gets old and you find yourself talking to the most stubborn people on the planet. So I write about topics of the day. Alas, we have some people who misinterpret mere knowledge of political things as 'taking a side.'
Perhaps JWI has felt some of that frustration. If he has not, I have.
I have not read Franz' book, the same as I have not read ARC report material gift-wrapped for me by those who hate us. I am not opposed to reading the report itself, and I no doubt will, as such material is included in the new book. As to Franz' book, there hardly seems a point to my reading it, since everyone else sums it up for me. However, it's hard for me to find fault with him for writing it - whatever he goes on to say is another thing. He leaves Bethel as he is getting on in years. it is a 'vow of poverty' place; he does not leave with a 401K. What is he to do? Work at Mickey D's?