Anna

I think the best criteria is mentioned in Zeph. 2:3 :"2  Before the decree takes effect,Before the day passes by like chaff,Before the burning anger of Jehovah comes upon you,+Before the day of Jehovah’s anger comes upon you, 3  Seek Jehovah,+ all you meek ones* of the earth,Who observe his righteous decrees.*Seek righteousness, seek meekness.*Probably* you will be concealed on the day of Jehovah’s anger.+
Even if we are not with one another and we are alone we must be faithful and loyal to Jehovah. As to uncertainties I really like Bro. Jacksons talk at the annual meeting "Expect the Unexpected".

Quite true. At first, I wondered if I should have started out with this same point about what it means to be "devoted" to something. In the original verse, the idea of devotion is just as well translated without even using the word "devotion." It could also have been properly translated: "And they continued steadfastly [proskarteréō] with the instructions of the apostles."  (Acts 2:42) or perhaps, "And they persevered  [proskarteréō] in the instructions of the apostles..."
In fact, the New World Translation does not usually use the word "devoted" when translating this word:
(Acts 1:14) With one purpose all of these were persisting [proskarteréō] in prayer, together with some women and Mary the mother of Jesus and with his brothers.
(Acts 2:46) 46 And day after day they were in constant [proskarteréō] attendance in the temple with a united purpose,. . .
(Acts 8:13) 13 Simon himself also became a believer, and after being baptized, he continued [proskarteréō] with Philip; and he was amazed at seeing the signs and great powerful works taking place.
(Colossians 4:2) 2 Persevere [proskarteréō] in prayer, remaining awake in it with thanksgiving.
But this is still a very useful point about being "devoted" to your wife, and a wife being "devoted" to her husband. You could even argue that slaves should be devoted to their masters, and children be devoted to their parents. In Acts 2:46 these same brothers we have been talking about were also "devoted" to their attendance at the temple. And in Acts 8:13, Simon, the former magician, was "devoted" to Philip. But the point about "devotion" to one's spouse is especially useful here, specifically because of the immediate context of Ephesians 5 & 6:
(Ephesians 5:21-6:5) 21 Be in subjection to one another in fear of Christ.22 Let wives be in subjection to their husbands as to the Lord, 23 because a husband is head of his wife just as the Christ is head of the congregation, he being a savior of this body. 24 In fact, as the congregation is in subjection to the Christ, wives should also be to their husbands in everything. 25 Husbands, continue loving your wives, just as the Christ also loved the congregation and gave himself up for it, . . .  28 In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. A man who loves his wife loves himself, 29 for no man ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cherishes it, just as the Christ does the congregation, 30 because we are members of his body. . . .  33 Nevertheless, each one of you must love his wife as he does himself; on the other hand, the wife should have deep respect for her husband. 6 Children, be obedient to your parents in union with the Lord, for this is righteous. . . .  5 Slaves, be obedient to your human masters,. . .
It's very true that this sense of devotion does include a kind of "subjection to the lead" of another person, just as you imply that we should be in a kind of devoted subjection and obedience to imperfect men. But notice one more verse in that same passage that I didn't highlight yet:
(Ephesians 5:21) 21 Be in subjection to one another . . .
In other words, the way in which you should be in subjection to the Governing Body and other elders, for example, is in the same way that each member of the Governing Body should be in subjection to you. That's the way it is with all fellow members of the congregation. We are in subjection to each other.
This is why, even among Jehovah's Witnesses, it should not be possible for us to think of a certain group as if they make up a group of human leaders.
(Luke 22:25-27) 25 But he said to them: “The kings of the nations lord it over them, and those having authority over them are called Benefactors. 26 You, though, are not to be that way. But let the one who is the greatest among you become as the youngest, and the one taking the lead as the one ministering. 27 For which one is greater, the one dining or the one serving? Is it not the one dining? But I am among you as the one serving.
Our "food" -- our spiritual nourishment -- is doing Jehovah's will with respect to each other; it's especially the encouragement, comfort and support we all give to one another. (John 4:34; Hebrews 10:24,25) This encouragement and spiritual food can include instruction and guidance and counsel and information from the elders, and therefore also from the Governing Body. We respect all that counsel deeply.  But we don't devote ourselves to the Governing Body, except in the same sense that the Governing Body members also devote themselves to you. There is no separate Body within the Body. They are not in the position of a husband over the congregation, and we are not in the position of a wife in the congregation. We are all a part of the body of the whole congregation. But Jesus Christ is the Leader and Head (and Husband) and the rest of us are slaves serving each other. Some are shepherds and stewards, but this does not make those ones our Leader, in any sense.
In fact, as a shepherd, every elder takes on the responsibility of being "God's steward:"
(Titus 1:7)  For as God’s steward, an overseer must be free from accusation. . .
And it is every steward's responsibility to be faithful and discreet:
(1 Corinthians 4:2) In this regard, what is expected of stewards is that they be found faithful.
(Ephesians 5:15-17) 15 So keep strict watch that how you walk is not as unwise but as wise persons . . . keep perceiving what the will of Jehovah is.
 

I feel like I rather rudely steered this conversation to one that kept veering back to a problem I had with the words "devotion to imperfect men" which was tied to "devotion to the Governing Body." That wasn't the real gist of the original thread, so I'm thinking all that part of the discussion could be moved to a new thread. If that happens, perhaps the entire February 2017 study article that was referenced could be discussed. But I won't be adding more to that particular subject here.

Well, I wouldn't even worry about it then. Who cares what they think, really?

Wise observation. I mean, are the Russian authorities going to assist in the verification of this?

To my knowledge, no one can be controlled unless they want to be, or unless they are subject to extreme psychological duress.   
These are all excuses.  Assigning blame on something or someone else instead of accepting we went the direction we didn’t really want to go, or changed our mind about the direction later. Most of these accusations are only a cover up for immorality and other behaviours unacceptable in the Christian congregation. The congregation has to be kept morally and doctrinally clean.  Recommendation against higher education is just that, recommendation.  Humans are very, very good at blaming and making excuses, and have been since the creation of Adam.

Trying to get a picture of the Ministry of Justice witnesses and testimony but it is difficult to get any thing further than: 
Natalia Koretskaya.  JW for 14 years. Disfellowshipped in 2009 for immorality??
Pavel Zverev. JW at young age. Seems to have spent 2 years as a cook in Bethel after having been "dissuaded" from seeking further education at age 16yrs?
Nina Petrova. In organisation for 28 years! and pressured not to have a family until too late?
A fourth witness is not detailed.
There seems to be additional issues for some with depression and alcoholism after "quitting" the organisation.
They all seem of the view that they were subject to "total control" whilst with Jehovah's Witnesses. (Perhaps not completely "total" as they seem to be no longer associated.)
If the judge is expressing lack of clarity on the objective of the MOJ presentation with all the information at their disposal, what hope do we have when subjected to these obscured accounts?
I understand @JamesThomasRook 's frustration on reporting from both sides of the matter expressed elsewhere.

Sa'fyre response leaves 'a good feeling about mankind'
Volunteers needed to help sort million letters, packages for young burn victim
By Paul Nelson
Updated 8:55 pm, Wednesday, January 13, 2016

 
 

In practice, what does that mean? I mean how is the FDS going to lead us to survive the great tribulation? I thought it was up to Jehovah and Jesus.
This is a sincere question.

I don't want to come between yours and Ann's intellectual conversation, but I think you are analyzing too much @TrueTomHarley   Or else it's just an excuse to do some writing?

Not that it matters, but I'd like to add my own opinion that a third world war is just as UNlikely today as it was 10 years ago and 20 years ago. (It is also just as likely.) Things can change again quickly, of course, and a potential stand-off due to USA-Korea "posturing" raised a red flag last night, but it likely not going to flare up again for a while.
We are probably supposed to get all worked up whenever the general climate of the world becomes more on edge and it probably sounds wrong not to go along with the idea that the whole world could blow up at any minute. I don't think the Biblical end of this system has much to do with the kinds of multi-pronged tensions that the world continues to face. The end can happen at any time, with or without any specific cry for "peace and security" and with or without any specific interpretation of Bible prophecy that we have anticipated.

What is important is that people right now that I am speaking with in the field are scared to death about things happening this past week. So now is a good time to "comfort them from the Scriptures".

Not sure what you mean by that because to my knowledge there isn't a Liverpool in London. It seems to me he must have docked at Liverpool and then took the train to London, about a 3 hour ride. Thanks for the interesting info!
It brings to mind the story of PSL Johnson and the fiasco that ensued when Rutherford sent him to London to take care of some business at the London Bethel. This is what "Harvest Siftings" was based on, and was the beginnings of the dispute and apostasy shortly after Russell died. I remember reading the original story in the WT (1917 I think) and reading about how Johnson jumped out of the Bethel window in his underwear to escape the brothers knocking at his door. Apparently a passerby described the scene to a policeman, it sounded quite comical.

Bad use of (parentheses). "Liverpool (for London)" is what I meant.
The PSL Johnson story is quite interesting. He had worked with Russell, too. In fact PSL Johnson was the one who tried to keep Russell from starting the "New Covenant" apostasy, so it wasn't the first time he had been involved in controversial problems. Henninges was loyal, but his wife had been involved in controversial problems, and his wife's brother had died "under Russell's roof" years earlier.

Hey, I was the one who raised that point with the video, but I don't think I ever said it was no good. I just thought it would have been better had the pedophile started out as a normal person, because esentially that is how they start out. The video (at least what I see) assumes that a pedophile is immediately identifiable because there is something different about them. In this case they are like a monster. In reality though, children are groomed very carefully and the younger they are the easier deceived they are. I think it would have been better had they started out looking normal, and as friends, and then turned into a monster in sinc with inappropriate behavior. That would have been more realistic. The mention of "even if it is someone you trust" may possibly get overlooked by a child, since they are so focused on the monster. Children have very selective hearing you know.
I dont think children are stupid, but it has been shown by experiment that young children will go with a stranger DESPITE having been taught not to! Why? Because practice is very different from theory, and and even us adults have trouble with the two, how much more so young children.
On the other hand, I very much doubt the video was put together without any thoughts or imput from professionals. The society has used the services of Monica Applewhite a number of times. I would be interested to know the reason for the way the video was made.
I have not seen the other video. Did someone post it?

Hey, I was the one who raised that point with the video, but I don't think I ever said it was no good. I just thought it would have been better had the pedophile started out as a normal person, because esentially that is how they start out. The video (at least what I see) assumes that a pedophile is immediately identifiable because there is something different about them. In this case they are like a monster. In reality though, children are groomed very carefully and the younger they are the easier deceived they are. I think it would have been better had they started out looking normal, and as friends, and then turned into a monster in sinc with inappropriate behavior. That would have been more realistic. The mention of "even if it is someone you trust" may possibly get overlooked by a child, since they are so focused on the monster. Children have very selective hearing you know.
I dont think children are stupid, but it has been shown by experiment that young children will go with a stranger DESPITE having been taught not to! Why? Because practice is very different from theory, and and even us adults have trouble with the two, how much more so young children.
On the other hand, I very much doubt the video was put together without any thoughts or imput from professionals. The society has used the services of Monica Applewhite a number of times. I would be interested to know the reason for the way the video was made.
I have not seen the other video. Did someone post it?

I could not add them earlier, (I wanted to add 1 by 1) there are SO MANY VISITS on this forum, and something happening with my internet connection, it was VERY slow (to open this page) ... still it is, and I could not even upload files, perhaps it is because of THOUSANDS OF VISITS yesterday, many many cities WORLDWIDE ! (only the admins know why). and I see that there are thousands of visits for the last 2 weeks or so,
thank you for the comments, 

I'm sure that thousands of people hold about the same view I have about higher education and the Watchower's view of higher education. And I'm sure that thousands of current JWs believe the Watchtower's view of higher education is much more extreme and negative than it really is. The Watchtower has sometimes equated higher education with immorality, drug use and other risky behavior. But it is not totally forbidden and if one can show that they are able to handle the demands of higher education and still keep up with congregational responsibilities there is never a backlash from official organizational channels, as far as I'm aware, although one might have to put up with some local prejudices against education.
There is no TOTAL control as has been claimed. That goes for education, blood, shunning and a lot of things that are questioned. But there is still a lot of control, and to the extent this is true, we should be proud of it if we think it's correct. If we feel that something should be hidden from a tribunal of some sort, then we obviously are not proud of our view, or we are fearful of being persecuted for something we think is right.  
The kind of control that I don't think the Russian court is concerned about is the more subtle pressure that comes from judging. Persons who have participated in higher education are often told that they probably have "materialistic envy brewing" for example. Or else it might be implied that they are not paying attention to Paul's words when he said: "Do not be conformed to this world...."
At any rate, for reasons I have pointed out many times, we should always be open and honest and give everyone a reason for the hope that we have whenever anyone demands it. We should really never have to be prepped for court unless we feel we are doing something wrong, or that we don't trust Jehovah's backing if we tell the truth. We should always be able to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help us God.

No one is pressured into doing anything they don`t want to, Jehovah wants willingness not forced

@Witness I understand "obedience to the GB/elders" to be more of a "organizational and keeping the congregation moraly clean" nature rather than what the apostle Paul was talking about in context which was: they had a clear command from God, and men were telling them to stop. I have not known the GB to ask us to break any commandment from God. If they did, then obviously  we would want to obey God rather than them.

My original question had no discriminatory flavor to it.
In Science Fiction, the term is "xenophobic", which locally refers to a hatred or dislike of people of other countries.
PALOMAR MOUNTAIN, CALIFORNIA
Place Of Dreams Fulfilled.
When I was a pre-teenager, about 1957 or so, the Russians awakened the world as if throwing ice water or sleeping planet by launching into space the Sputnik satellite, a small ball about the size of a basketball in orbit around the earth, and several times a day the satellite would travel over the United States of America with its beeping signals, very primitive by today’s standards, and you could stand out in your front yard and look into the night sky and see it pass overhead as a rapidly moving star.
It’s hard to even explain nowadays the galvanizing effect this had on the nations in general and the United States in particular, but as an 11-year-old boy who somehow had picked up the desire to go to space this captured my imagination as much as it scared the imagination of military and political leaders around the world. At the time I had no geopolitical sense whatsoever so I was totally enthralled by what I saw in the night sky.
It’s hard to even explain nowadays the shock effect that this obvious and apparent demonstration of Soviet superiority had on the world and specifically the United States. Overnight, it seemed, the educational system was ramped up to include science and mathematics beyond the imagination of what people had planned merely months before. The Soviet satellite, and the implications of Soviet superiority were the topic of every magazine, every newspaper and every mass media market that existed at that time… Extremely primitive by today’s standards.
As usual, anything that captured the imagination of the American people, could be exploited to make a dollar off of it, and very soon in the exact same manner that the sport of baseball had baseball cards, there were space cards available in every store and outlet that I was aware of. You could buy a pack of space cards with a slab of bubblegum and there would be pictures of space stations, meteor strikes, what we thought the planets look like then, and everything even remotely related to space.
If memory serves, it’s through these space cards that I became aware of the great observatory at Palomar Mountain, the Palomar Observatory, which took seven years to build as I later found out and was truly as magnificent piece of technology such as the world had never seen before.
By the age of 13, I had become so enthralled with Palomar Mountain and Palomar Observatory that I hungrily absorbed any and all information I could find about it, and vowed that when I grew up I would make a pilgrimage to Palomar Mountain and feast my eyes on the giant eye that could see across the universe and unravel the secrets it contained. By understanding the universe, as an aside, it occurred to me that I could understand the mind of God, which is partially true.
So with this in mind, I have provided the link below so that if you’re not familiar with Palomar Observatory, which is in Southern California, you can review the Wikipedia link, which will add a great deal to your understanding and appreciation of the poem “Infinity”, by Rosser Reeves.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palomar_Observatory
………. About 1963 or so I discovered a old yellow science fiction book in the upper levels of my library at the high school I attended, and I believe I read all the science fiction that they had in the school at that time and in this old yellow science fiction book was this poem.
I was so stunned by the magnificence and scope of the poem, that I have tried my entire life to commit fully to memory, and several times I did, but that was then, and this is now. I can still recite the poem pretty much from memory, if I have it written down before me so I can glance down and see what comes next.
If you remember the old advertising slogan “… Melts in your mouth not in your hand”, that M&M candy company used to use on television, the same guy that invented that slogan, is the guy that wrote this poem.
All of this having been said, with great pleasure I present to you as if it were my personal gift ……….. the poem, “Infinity”, by Rosser Reeves.
INFINITY by Rosser Reeves
=======================
The probing eye of Palomar peers skyward to reveal
A billion molten, fiery stars in our galactic wheel...
And shows that even this great disc
Is but a firefly burning,
Within a much more monstrous wheel,
Slowly, slowly turning.
May not this next celestial wheel
Be but an atom's glow in some big molecule of stars
In some huge flake of snow?
For may not space flow on and on from door to opening door,
Like seas that open into seas and never reach a shore?
If in our atom's tiny flame a billion stars are whirled
And millions of these lonely suns has each a captive world,
Just follow to the trillionth power and on beyond to see,
What must be true when ciphers link down to infinity.
Somewhere red planets swing around a triple silver sun,
And pale, pale rainbows interlock their arches one by one.
Somewhere, dark girls upon their brows grow curving, scarlet horns,
And ride in tinkling gardens on great golden unicorns.
Somewhere rains of diamonds fall on foaming, milk-white seas,
Where rockets follow streaming light from star to star with ease.
And soft-eyed girls with honeyed lips swim up to sing and free
Their water-weighted lashes from their native shining sea.
Great blue-white giant blazing suns control a thousand spheres
Where reptiles march in glistening ranks and fight with jeweled spears;
Where lizards lounge on ivory thrones
And keep to weave and spin, to clean their overlapping scales,
A smooth-skinned race of men.
Somewhere crustaceans think like Gods and muse eternal laws
And write the music of the spheres with clicking bony claws.
Or beetles, fish and furry things emerge as sentient breeds,
Or, working with atomic fires are thinking centipedes.
Or, coal-black spiders sway in webs
Beneath chill alien moons,
And finger gemlike instruments to strum immortal tunes.
Or serpent-men on serpent worlds evolve to racial prime,
And glide in fourth dimensions where
The riddle solved is time.
For if there is no end of worlds and nature keeps her laws,
Who knows which life will win which world:
The hands...the coils...the claws?
So feathered things and crawling things
And creeping things all go
Their separate ways on separate worlds,
Around, above, below.
If God employs infinity His wonders to perform,
And there's no end of endlessness,
Can there, then, be a norm?
Would God give souls to sentient beasts
Or would they still be clods?
If evolution is God's way,
Whose image, then, is God's?
An endlessness of worlds implies a world of every kind:
Worlds where our past repeats itself until the end of time.
Worlds where our future's far events enact themselves before;
Where every closing portal means another opening door.
So if there is infinity, if endlessness is true,
Somewhere, Napoleon walks again the fields of Waterloo;
And somewhere, always, in the depths of time's vast shoreless sea,
Upon the ghastly Hill of Skulls,
Christ hangs upon the tree.
===============================================
 

…. it appeared in "The Best From Fantasy and Science Fiction, Tenth Series" in 1961. The cover price is/was 45¢!!
The editor's comment: "The author is chairman of the board of a large corporation, and we confess we find it intriguing and comforting to know that a man whose workday is devoted to the harsh realities of multi-million-dollar profit and loss has in him that good old-fashioned sense of wonder."
.

Think so. But what makes legislated matters right or wrong is how we feel about them isn't it That's how I understand part of the excercise of conscience and my freedom to do so?
 
My conscience can tolerate this as part of "Ceasar's" administrative structure of the day. After all I don't try to alter the calendar systems of other countries when I travel abroad. However, compliance with the fact that an "ancient Germanic goddess's name was retained for a Christian festival" is a bridge too far for me.
 
 

Yes, based on that scripture you quoted But I'm sure we could find something to fit in with my proposal

That may be true, but I have mentioned on this forum a few months ago the issue with countries with extremely large populations such as India and China with over 1.3. billion each totaling aprox. 36% of the world's population where for all intents and purposes no one has even heard of Jehovah's Witnesses, and many, particularly in India don't even know what a Bible is. My question was, would Jehovah discard nearly 3 billion people because they have not heard the Good News of the Kingdom?  And if not, how long would it take for those 3 billion (bear in mind the extreme poverty and ignorance in some parts of these countries) to be made sufficiently aware in order to make an informed choice?

Bro. Rayford. 10 years ago. Nothing to see here.
An article in the 2006 Watchtower had just come out that said that Matthew 24:14 had already been fulfilled in Paul's day, and the end had already come, too:
*** w06 2/1 p. 24 pars. 11-12 “A Witness to All the Nations” *** 11 Jehovah richly blessed the efforts of those and other zealous workers. Less than 30 years after Jesus foretold that there would be a witness to all the nations, Paul wrote that the “good news” had been “preached in all creation that is under heaven.” (Colossians 1:23) Did the end then come? In a sense, yes. It came upon the Jewish system of things in the year 70 C.E. when Roman armies destroyed Jerusalem along with the temple. Yet, Jehovah had determined that a far greater witness would be given before he would bring an end to Satan’s global system of things. But there was no difference in the way that article spoke of the nearness of the fulfillment in our day, nothing about a complete fulfillment yet.
If I had to guess, Brother James Rayford is extrapolating from some comments that are heard from time to time by members of the Governing Body. The question comes up about whether Armageddon must wait until all nations have had a thorough witness. The answer is always, NO. And sometimes the verse in Colossians or another in Romans is used as a way of showing that 100% saturation is not necessary for the next items in the anticipated agenda to also be fulfilled. The point is that we can't wait and say that the end can't come yet, when Jesus said it could come any time. It's easy to misinterpret this somewhat if one wants to drive home a point about the closeness of the end.