Anna

I know a brother in Europe, who is an elder and has a beard. And I know several brothers who are serving as ministerial Servants and have beards.
Ultimately in the USA it will be up to the local elders to decide whether a beard is acceptable in their area or not. When the WT came out last May, our CO said that come end of the year, he expects many brothers (in the US) will be sporting a beard.  I am fine with that, as long as as sisters don't start that trend too

I know a brother in Europe, who is an elder and has a beard. And I know several brothers who are serving as ministerial Servants and have beards.
Ultimately in the USA it will be up to the local elders to decide whether a beard is acceptable in their area or not. When the WT came out last May, our CO said that come end of the year, he expects many brothers (in the US) will be sporting a beard.  I am fine with that, as long as as sisters don't start that trend too

No, not really, there are no ambiguities to remove. In fact even if something is totally black and white, there will always be people who will be contrary. I have already cited scriptures which attest to the fact that only some will see the “truth” and others will not. If we were to apply Jesus' narrow road, we can say that the majority will not see the truth. Also “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will". Now if we could not be sure what the doing of his will was, how could that statement made by Jesus be fair? And not only that, but in talking about ambiguity and the truth, we cannot ignore Satan’s vested interest in the outcome of what people will believe, as he is the father of the lie, he does not want anyone to learn the truth.

I have to come back on this one Anna.
It is all food for thought and very interesting indeed to consider the development of understanding over the years on this subject, the generation that will by no means pass away.
 JW Insider's anecdotal expositions are thought-provoking. Allen's wide scattering of commentary references have interest,even if lacking coherence.
However, it is important to keep a balance and not be 'shaken from our reason' on this matter. We need to be 'making sure of more important things' at this time. (comp. 2Thess.2:2; Ph.1:10)
By way of reminder, one important thing is to be sure about who "the faithful and discreet slave" is, and the work assigned to that slave. As Jehovah's Witnesses, we currently recognise that the Governing Body of anointed Christians constitutes the "faithful and discreet slave". The work assigned is to provide "food at the proper time", spiritual food that is.
For me, Bro Splane is a member of the Governing Body. His use and application of the scripture at Ex.1:6 in explaining a perspective on the meaning of Jesus words at Matt.24:34, is an example of the slave providing appropriately timed food. He could have used any of the scriptures using the the term "generation" (over 180 instances in the NWT for example). Some of those scriptures indeed point to 40 year periods. Others, though, have a longer time lapse, such the Gen.15:16 usage. And it may also be "food for thought" when you consider that in the 1656 year period (the Antediluvian generation) from Adam's creation until the flood, there were only 3 "overlapping" generations. (Adam, Lamech, Shem).
So, Bro. Splane was fulfilling his role (representatively), by choosing a particular reference to the word generation, and a particular way of viewing it's application in the face of a number of ways that this could be done (some referenced in the postings here). This constitutes "food at the proper time". Why? Because it is patently obvious that the passage of time has indicated previous explanations to be now inadequate. They may have served a purpose at the time, but are no longer fit for that purpose. 
Once of the principal elements of food at the proper time is to keep Christians alert to the urgency of the times in which we live. There may be "times or seasons that the Father has placed within his own juridiction", but there are those that have been placed within ours. Obviously, our interest in the urgency of the times should not get to the point of eclipsing our need to put on the new personality, or the requirement to demonstrate our love for our families and those related in the faith. Nevertheless, despite the unknown "day and hour" for God's intervention, the limited time element on this system of things is an important factor in our balancing and prioritising our spiritual and secular responsibilities with particular regard to preaching the good news of the kingdom and the attendant disciple making work. The belief that those who saw 1914CE would also see the "great tribulation" may have been inaccurate, but at the time served to heighten awareness of the limited time factor. In the face of Satan's onslaught of persecution, propaganda, and provocations, this awareness was, and still is, essential. 
It is obvious that some would be disturbed by the apparent "by all means has passed away" nature of the 1914 generation as it was understood. To address that issue and to further enlighten those who are not so shaky in their orientation, I see the"overlapping (or 2 group) generation" explanation filling that need in showing how a "generation" is not dependent on the life-span of one group associated with it, but may consist of 2, overlapping, groups of people.
Those who were anointed when witnessing 1914 are the Ist group. Those born after 1914, anointed, and then whose lives  "overlap" with the 1st group, are the 2nd group and are the only additional ones qualified to be seen as part of the "generation". This definition prevents a perpetual chain of overlaps, but more importantly retains the level of urgency. This (redefined) generation "will by no means pass away". And by that definition, those anointed since (probably) the mid 1990s do not qualify as a part of that generation, 1st or 2nd group. There will be no need for a 3rd group.
It is an adjustment, in fact a re-adjustment. But why should this surprise us in the spirit of 2Cor.13:11? For me, it is actually "food at the proper time". And I expect many more readjustments before we get to the end of this system of things. But these readjustments will come via "the faithful and discreet slave" regardless of the many genuinely bright ideas that individual brothers (and sisters) may have themselves.
Problems arise if we cherish old viewpoints, or, worse, if we cherish our own ideas on things and see "adjustments" as justification that we were right all the time and do better to keep our own counsel on matters. Even worse still, if we then try to promote our "own" ideas and effectively undermine confidence in the role of the "faithful and discreet slave", we are just following the pattern of Korah (Nu.16; Jude 11). Or the pattern of any number of armchair, internet apostates. Even if we do not become militant anti-GB activists, we need to remain adaptable in our thinking to prosper spiritually. This puts me in mind of an experience I had.
There was an older man attending my first kingdom hall (1970s). He always sat alone, arrived as the meeting started, left immediately at the end after collecting magazines or literature. Never said anything to anyone. He also attended assemblies. I noticed him because he always wore a heavy overcoat, even in the summer. One day, I got to speak to him as he was leaving. I asked him how long he had been a witness, making conversation. He said that he was a Bible Student and had been coming to the meetings since the early 1920s. However, he did not agree with the Society abandoning the teaching that prophecy indicated a literal restoration for fleshly Israel. Despite this, he had continued attending the meetings, by that time, for some 50 years! Why? Because he felt that the "Society" was the Lord's organisation, and would eventually come to their senses on this matter. He never entered into a conversation with me again and he never integrated into fellowship with the congregation. It was like he had disfellowshipped us. He eventually died, still holding his viewpoint.
So for me, it is important to recognise that we are in "the last days" of this wicked, Satan-ruled, system of things. No man knows the day and hour of Gods intervention, but nevertheless we must be at our (Christian) business urgently, keeping close in mind Jehovah's day. Satan and his propaganda machine will do everything possible to dissuade us from recognising where we are in the stream of time, what action we need to take, and who we need to look to for spritual shepherding.
I am convinced that the Governing Body under the direction of Jehovah and Jesus, is a provision to lead us safely through these last days and on into the new system of things. This perfectly acceptable definition of the generation that will by no means pass away works for me.  

Wonderful experience and very apt!
I agree with you of course. I was just being too technical in my reply to Johniffer as he said "Thanks for this reminder. hope more people read this. they don't know what they are doing because they don't believe bad spirits exist". It didn't seem logical to me as why would people suddenly start believing in bad spirits based on that article...But I can see your point, some thought process could be triggered, as shown by the example you posted. I was looking at it too narrow minded! 

The September 2013 Awake article on this matter was addressed to people in this way , "you may not believe in supernatural spirits".
2 Cor. 4:4
Satan blinds peoples minds to the truth through false propoganda in many areas, religious, scientific, political etc. They construct all kinds of mental buildings based on these false foundations.
When some people hear the truth on a matter however, it can move their thinking on other issues. Bit like seismic activity in one area causes building collapse somewhere miles away. 
I had a study once with a Trotskyist revolutionary. He was active in a radical political party. It was impossible to discuss world conditions or religion in general without getting into a political debate.  After a year, I gave up and switched to talking in detail about the Bible's teaching on life after death, something he had expressed no interest in. However, this was new to him and he listened with some interest intellectually, as he did not know that mainstream church thinking differed from what the Bible taught.
Nothing happened for several months until he attended a funeral service for a close relative. He realised that the funeral discourse contradicted what he now knew was taught in the Bible. He was outraged by this. Within weeks he started attending all the meetings at the Kingdom Hall and soon dedicated his life to Jehovah. His zeal was now redirected into the preaching and teaching work and he pioneered for many years. 
So in the spirit of Ecclesiastes 11:5, I would encourage @Queen Esther to keep publishing the truth on matters. Who knows where it will have success?
Just one thing, It is good to provide a link to jw.org when quoting articles in this manner. Like this: Sep 2013 Awake

Moses was inspired, because he wrote several Bible books, but he was not infallible and made mistakes. The GB are not inspired (the Bible is complete) and make mistakes, but they do rely on God's holy spirit through the Scriptures. As we all should.

Moses was inspired, because he wrote several Bible books, but he was not infallible and made mistakes. The GB are not inspired (the Bible is complete) and make mistakes, but they do rely on God's holy spirit through the Scriptures. As we all should.

If you look at the original version that Queen Esther posted here you can see that the words were translated from " CUÍDENSE HERMANOS ."  This just means "Take Care, Brothers"
Also, if you run the whole thing through Bing translator, it can clear up a couple of the issues that remained from Google translator. (It also translated "died" instead of "killed.") Neither translator is perfect, of course. It helps more to have family members that speak fluent Spanish.

I wonder what is there to 'beware' of?
we know this already - same as our body that create new cells every time; so, the new supply of annointed brothers and sisters but that doesn't mean that the time will be shortened or lengthened or even changed - Jehovah set the time limit since Jesus enthronement like in Noah's day.   The coundown is there already - we are not just aware exactly when it will be over but it is very close! Like how we observe the leaf of a fig tree - when you see new leaf - you know that the summer is near.  Finding new and young member of the Governing Body is the same -. The Great day of Jehovah is REALLY near.
 
- if the world says 'calm before the storm'. We say 'prepare for the coming storm and then there will be calm'. ?

We don't need to assume it. It is a feature of all generations associated with a historical sequence. An important feature here is that the duration of the sequence of events described in Matt 24 is longer than the life span of one human at the time they occur. 
As for Matt 24 supporting the idea, it does not define the use of the word generation directly. It does not actually state something like "a generation attached to the events described here will have to extend longer than the lifetime of one man".
Instead, we need to 'reason from the Scriptures". It is clear that there is no Bible rule determining the length of a generation. Just thinking about Genesis 15:13-16 in comparison with  the context of other places where the word is used shows this. Or when you think how long people lived in earlier Bible times then obviously, the concept of a generation, if related to how long someone lives, is flexible.
The idea of a generation based on the Bro Splane's reasoning against the description of Joseph's generation at Exodus 1:6 works for me. It's not creating a new concept or anything. It just points out the fact that when a generation is associated with a historical sequence (in this case the life of Joseph), then members of that generation obviously overlap lives because people continue to be born within the parameter of time set by that sequence. The overlap occurs between the lives of 2 groups. Group 1.Those born before the event(s) referenced. Group 2. Those born after, but living at the same time as the first group. This is the case for every generation associated with a historical sequence. (I'm not forgetting that we limit the generation here to just to anointed Christians)
Whether one persons lifetime is long enough to span the duration of that sequence or not is immaterial. It is not the crucial criteria. 
Now, with regard to the duration of the period of time identified by Jesus in Matt. 24 as the "last days". If we have accepted (for various reasons which are the subject of other threads) that 1914CE commences that time period, with the 1st World War as a tangible evidence of that, then it is patently obvious that the period of time marking the "last days" exceeds the life span of humans at this time. (If humans at this time lived as long as Abraham, or even Job, did, this discussion might not be taking place).
But Jesus spoke of a generation associated with the historical sequence known as the "last days", a generation that, like all other generations before, would consist of 2 overlapping groups, a generation associated with a historical sequence of events that exceeds the life span experienced by persons at the time, but, nevertheless, a generation that will have "by no means pass[ed] away, when God's Kingdom crushes and puts an end to all other kingdoms.
So then, what you have stated about Group 2 not seeing the start of the sign is not an assumption. It is a common feature of all generations defined in this way. It's just that no one seems to have specifically pointed it out.
However, what is unique in this concept is the make up of those in the second group considered valid for inclusion in the generation. That is, Group1 consists of those alive to witness the start of the historical sequence, and Group 2, those born after the start but who are contemporary to that first group. Where the historical sequence exceeds the lifetime of any in the first group, then ONLY those overlapping with that first group are considered as part of that generation. Any coming on the scene later (ie overlapping with the 2nd group only), are excluded.
So, it is the limiting of those included in the second group that is the doctorine here, not the concept of the overlap of groups in a generation, which is a fact independent of Jehovah's Witnesses.
Some nutshell eh?
 
 

There are some strange comments and inferences in this thread. Regardless of what others may think about our stand on blood, some facts are as follows:
Jehovah's Witnesses make a personal decision to avoid the use of whole blood in medical management of health issues simply becuase they understand the prohibition at Acts 15:29 to apply ito this practice. Jehovah's Witnesses do not sign a baptism certificate because the baptism itself is seen as a public declaration of their decision to dedicate themselves to God. The so-called "blood card" that Jehovah's Witnesses use is a provision to assist them in dealing with medical authorities in case of an emergency. It serves as an expression of their will in regard to a  personal choice of medical procedure and is no different than carrying information regarding diabetes, an allergy, or any other medical preference or condition. Medical practioners wishing to respect personal choice in such matters have expressed appreciation for such a document, not least because it helps to resolve conflict in balancing their own professional responsibility against respect for an individual,s wishes. It is a personal choice to have one and no one is compelled to carry one as is inferred. The brothers who support Jehovah's Witnesses in a medical emergency are there by choice of the individual experiencing the situation. They work outside of specific situations to raise awareness amongs medical practioners of the reasons why Jehovah's Witnesses take this particular view of a medical procedure, and the existence of alternative methods of managing medical conditions where blood loss trauma is an issue. They also support Witnesses in locating practioners who respect their conscientous stand and have sufficient expertise to treat them.

This is just another classic case of misplaced blame. i.e.. hold the the whole organization responsible, not just the individual (the perpetrator)

True. Forgot about that scripture.
Also true, because people are dying and being born all the time. It's not as if this process stops for a time being just to allow a group of people of similar age to be encompassed. In any case, secondary Biblical applications always differ, (especially when it comes to time) to the first application.
I haven't finished going through all yours and JWInsider's posts yet though. Got stuff to do. But I am sure I will have some comments later, for what they are worth

To all really.
Please don't waste time overthinking my relay race illustration. You may have noted I have abandoned it now. I only wanted to illustrate the idea of an overlap, but I realise now that there are too many tempting red herrings in the concept of a relay race. (Christian race, obstacles, training, teams, trainers, runners, false starts....dear me!)
So really this is an example of illustration overkill because it 's too vivid and rich for the purpose I intended.  

Things don't change.  Acts 16:20-21; 19:25-27 etc.

Quite right. But of course, that's where faith comes in isn't it. The evidence based kind (Heb.11:1). And doesn't  that faith itself becomes an evidence of unseen realities?
Can't be a coincidence that that's where the most acerbic attacks are focused?

Yes. Actually I was going to bring up the matter of faith, but then I changed my mind as I thought it was going off on another tangent. But yes, that is definitely a part of our belief where that scripture finds perfect application.
Curious isn't it?

I understand what you are saying. And yes, you are right.
Hmmm....because I haven't got around to listening to Br. Splane again, (yet) So I cannot say if it was meant as merely an opinion or if it was meant as more than that, as interpretation. Because that really is the crux of the matter. (in my opinion). So I will have to come back to that later. ......
Correct.
Fair enough.
This quote, in answer to JWInsider, is perhaps most telling. I wonder, is this the answer the Slave would give us in response to the question of why try to explain the "delay" by means of an "overlapping Generation", or why try to explain the apparent "delay" at all for that matter. As you see, I am trying to understand the reason for coming up with the "overlapping Generation" in the first place. I like to be given reasons. What other options could there be? (that is actually not a hypothetical question, I am really wondering). Do we even need to be assured that we are living in the last days, as if that concept was what was needed to keeping us going? As if our entire faith was built around "the last days" like a carrot dangled in front of us? You know the answer to that I think; we shouldn't need that. BUT evidently some do(!) One of my very good friends left the truth in 1995 when the first of the explanations for the Generation was printed in the WT. It caused her to completely lose faith in the GB. So it seems like the quest to have to "explain" the apparent "delay" is a bit of a two edged sword. On the one hand it can placate some, and on the other hand it can turn some off. And then of course there are the rest who kind of ignore the whole thing with the attitude "we'll just stick around as there is nothing else out there"o r "we will stick around and see what happens (that's me ). Sorry about me going on, I'm just kind of thinking out aloud as I am typing. (that's a strange sentence). The only thing is that  irks me about this need to explain things (the "delay") is that it gives me the feeling that the Slave thinks we are all some kind of numpties. Little children who need to be pacified.....
If it's wrong, then that will mean time has run out again. Maybe this whole thing is just a test. Jehovah's way of sifting out "free riders", those who are only in it because they don't want to die.
By the way, I swear you are a lawyer.

I hope you can see that there can be no interpretation of this as it can only be explained accurately when it has passed. 'No man knows the day or hour'. Until then, any explanation of it's meaning remains...an opinion.(A right one or a wrong one, of course).  

Thank you  very  much, sister  Anna !

Aaaah I see! It makes sense now and it's a good idea. Thanks!

Ok, so I have finished watching Br. Splane and here is my verdict: Although expressions indicating opinion are not used during the whole of the talk, there would be nothing wrong with anyone saying that it IS an expression of opinion because words indicating fact are not used either. And as you said above, matters are never a fact unless they have already happened! HOWEVER, there is one expression of fact, and that is regarding 1914. Br. Splane  says referring to the signs (paraphrased ) ”now when did all these things begin to appear? (answer:)  In 1914".  Unfortunately , although it has already happened, the invisible part of it (Christ’s enthronement) cannot be proved, because of the fact that it was invisible. The visible part of the sign can be proved depending who you ask.  Br. Splane said (paraphrased) “The boy would understand these things were bad, (regarding 1914) but only those with spiritual discernment  would  see what this meant, that Jesus  was close at the door". Then he asks the crucial question “who were the only ones at that time who drew the right conclusion?” Well of course we know the answer to that. (although they drew that conclusion a little earlier) And then I think we can start getting in to some kind of circular mode of reasoning here....Correct me if I am wrong. Also this brings up the chronology problem again. As regards the explanation of the Generation, one is at liberty to either accept it or reject it without it raising an issue.

I think we are. What stood out to me the most was this, I quote him:
“So who and where, then, are the true Christians today? Obviously the same as in every century from the time of Christ, namely, people who have accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord, Redeemer, and Teacher, and who may be found in any kind of Christian fellowship that proves to be of help in their endevour to lead a Christian life”. 
This is not a scriptural teaching. It is merely his opinion. The scriptures indicate quite clearly that there will be a united group in the last days, they do not teach that true Christians will be scattered amongst various Christian denominations. That in itself is an oxymoron because it goes against the grain of what the truth means to Jehovah and Jesus. The fundamental truths regarding themselves are important to Jehovah and Jesus. They do not agree with the lies about their persons (the trinity etc.). They do not agree with the lies regarding their creation  (immortality of the soul etc.). They do not agree with the lies regarding their mode of judgement (hell fire etc.). They do not agree with the lies regarding their moral standards (homosexuality ok etc.) They do not agree with lies regarding worship (Jesus, Mary, idols etc) They do not agree with the lies regarding defence (war etc.) They do not agree with the lies regarding their spiritual standards (e.g. Jonsson’s quote above).
His quote above is a cheap cop out. The same reasoning has become very popular because it rids spiritual leaders of the responsibility of keeping Christ’s Church morally and spiritually clean. It puts the responsibility on the individual. However, Christ did establish the first century church and on this church the true church should be modeled.
There is no modern church except for Jehovah’s Witnesses’ which adhere to the same principles as the first century Christian congregations. Other Churches may have some aspects that are the same, but never ALL of them like Jehovah’s Witnesses do. Prove me wrong.
Acts 10:34,35 “At this Peter began to speak, and he said: “Now I truly understand that God is not partial, but in every nation the man who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him”.
I do not see anything indicating that in any Christian denomination the man who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.  
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