Anna

W/regard to Jehovah's foreknowledge I've always thought of it this way:
There's only so much stuff in the universe and only so many ways these can be configured over time factoring in the operation of free will. Before Jehovah created even Jesus as the Word he examined all the possible scenarios and that no matter which path was taken it would all end up being "very good" at the end.

I agree, as Jehovah is invulnerable, and cannot be harmed in any way.
He is not even in this physical Universe.
I think you misunderstood that I was advocating rebellion against Jehovah God.
I was not.
I was trying to describe what would be the ONLY excuse for rebellion, which of course would be impossible.

When I speculate as I often doggedly do, on the real Nature of Jehovah, I look to Cosmology, the Science, to try and use facts at hand to "reverse engineer" what may or may not be true.
I accept as incontrovertible evidence that the way this Universe started was with the "Big Bang", about 14 billion years ago, and that time and space are one thing.... not two things ... because all gravity is local, and all time is local. It has been proved, over and over again that the speed of time is also local, and fluctuates according to the local gravity intensity and local "material" velocity.
It is also clear to me that linear time, with an "arrow of time", going from the present to the future started at the "Big Bang".  Conversely, we know absolutely NOTHING about Physics before the "Big Bang", and that it will be impossible for us to EVER know about that.
.....but I suspect to the point of certainty that anything before that was a "Universe" of a completely different sort, with time running at a completely different rate ... of there being no linear time whatsoever ... effectively "Time Happens All At Once".  
No beginning and No end.
There is an interesting Scripture describing Jehovah as "From Everlasting to Everlasting", which to my mind exactly describes this BBB (before the big bang) environment and scenario..
EVERYTHING in this Universe dies because of entropy ... and there are no exceptions. Even in very deep time unimaginable protons decay.
BBB is not subject to the laws of thermodynamics for one simple reason.
No "arrow of time".
And that I submit for your welcome analysis and criticism is WHY Jehovah can never die.

Actually the "knowing he is his creator" is actually not specifically stated in scripture - this is what the author suggests the possibility is...
Yes @Anna the author is suggesting, as did the Sumerians, that all the gods evolved. This would include Jehovah. Not that the author believes this, but that the lie fostered was fostered by and believed by Satan (and that this could be the contribution to what any sane person would think was a foolish endeavor) was the heart of the rebellion.
 

The bible indicates that Satan knows that Jehovah exists and shudders - but he does not obey.  It is like a child that is on drugs and destroys his own life in front of a parent. 
Satan has seen the power of Jehovah - but it is rarely used destructively. Satan is the father of death and destruction, lies and deceit.  He knows that Jehovah is his creator but will spread lies to humankind about it.  Anything which takes away the honor from Jehovah whether it is atheism or false philosophy

So then did Satan think Jehovah evolved also?

So then did Satan think Jehovah evolved also?

The author is clearly responding to new evidence that Satan worships Hillary Clinton.

I think you asked an excellent question here. Last year, I think, you were part of the conversation where the point was made that this verse seems like an exception to the more general idea in the Bible that the end, last day, his parousia, the synteleia, end of all things, his manifestation, his  appearance, his revelation, the day of the Lord, Jehovah's day, the harvest, trumpet call, judgment day, resurrection, etc. all refer (generally) to a single, great future apocalyptic event of unknown duration. While that entire apocalyptic event is still future, Christians are told to keep it in mind, and expect that it can occur suddenly, at any time, as if without warning. 
Yet, this verse in Matthew definitely refers to the harvest as if it can cover a long period of time. The disciples themselves were part of this "harvesting" work. The analogy here was not wheat (sheaves), but sheep, who would be gathered into the fold.
(Matthew 10:5-7) These 12 Jesus sent out, giving them these instructions: “Do not go off into the road of the nations, and do not enter any Sa·marʹi·tan city; 6 but instead, go continually to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 As you go, preach, saying: ‘The Kingdom of the heavens has drawn near.’
(Matthew 10:23) . . .for truly I say to you, you will by no means complete the circuit of the cities of Israel until the Son of man arrives.
It would not be time to begin gathering (or bringing in) other sheep until after Jesus died. (John 10)
This is just an idea, but I think the solution is related to what I said before on the issue of the kingdom, the last day, the conclusion/end (synteleia), etc. I doubt that I made the made the point very well in the post on the previous page (from 3 days ago). I'll try to make it again. Keep in mind that it will be a similar point that the Watchtower articles have grappled with when speaking about why, if Jesus came into his Kingdom in 1914, we should still pray for that Kingdom to come:
*** w07 9/1 p. 31 Questions From Readers ***
When Jesus came into his Kingdom authority in 1914,
*** ws14 1/15 p. 26 par. 2 “Let Your Kingdom Come”—But When? ***
As Bible students, we know that God’s Kingdom came in 1914 when Jesus was made King in heaven.
*** w14 1/15 pp. 27-28 par. 2 “Let Your Kingdom Come”—But When? ***
As Bible students, we know that in one sense God’s Kingdom came in 1914 when Jesus was installed as King in heaven. But we know that more is involved in response to the prayer “Let your Kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also on earth.” (Matt. 6:10) Clearly, that includes the end of the present wicked system. Only when that occurs can God’s will be done on earth as it is being done in heaven.
In fact, with all the renewed "anniversary" emphasis on 1914 in the year 2014, the WTS decided to add a new song to the songbook, manually, that most Witnesses printed out on paper from jw.org and carried with them to the KH. The song was clearly meant to face the potential contradiction head on.

As stated before, the problem is not just the "kingdom" or the "harvest." Note:
The kingdom is coming, but Jesus also said it was already in their midst:
(Luke 17:21) . . .For look! the Kingdom of God is in your midst.”
The early Christians were awaiting the time to become kings and priests but were already made a kingdom of priests:
(Revelation 1:6) 6 and he made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father. . .
(Ephesians 2:6) . . .Moreover, he raised us up together and seated us together in the heavenly places in union with Christ Jesus,
We are awating Jesus' manifestation, yet Peter and Hebrews said he was already made manifest:
(1 Peter 1:20) .20 True, he was foreknown before the founding of the world, but he was made manifest at the end of the times for the sake of YOU
(Hebrews 9:26-27) . . .But now he has manifested himself once for all time at the conclusion of the systems of things to put sin away through the sacrifice of himself. 27 And as it is reserved for men to die once for all time, but after this a judgment,
We expect that Satan is not completely cast down until the final battle in heaven is complete, yet:
(John 12:31) . . .Now there is a judging of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.
(Luke 10:18) At that he said to them: “I see Satan already fallen like lightning from heaven. . .
The day of the Lord, the day of salvation was future, yet:
(2 Corinthians 6:2) . . .Look! Now is the day of salvation.
We are awaiting the last day, the last hour:
(John 6:54) . . .and I will resurrect him on the last day;
(John 12:48) . . .The word that I have spoken is what will judge him on the last day.
Yet, the "last hour" was already here in the first century:
(1 John 2:18) . . .Young children, it is the last hour, and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared, from which fact we know that it is the last hour.
Last days:
(Acts 2:16, 17) . . .this is what was said through the prophet Joel: 17 ‘“And in the last days,” God says, “I will pour out some of my spirit . . .
Paul explained that it was because they were in the last days that Timothy was seeing critical times hard to deal with:
(2 Timothy 3:1-14) . . .But know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, . . .  8 Now in the way that Janʹnes and Jamʹbres opposed Moses, so these also go on opposing the truth. . . . as it was with those two men. 10 But you have closely followed my teaching,. . . 13 But wicked men and impostors will advance from bad to worse, misleading and being misled. 14 You, however, continue in the things that you learned and were persuaded to believe, knowing from whom you learned them
Hebrews 1:2, from the literal Greek, also says the same:
(Hebrews 1:2) 2 Now [in the last days] he has spoken to us by means of a Son,. . .
And it's similar with this harvest or gathering of the chosen ones, at the last trumpet:
(Matthew 24:31) . . .And he will send out his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.
(1 Corinthians 15:51, 52) . . .we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we will be changed.
(1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds. . .
Yet, this "harvest" (or perhaps, "a harvest") or gathering can also be spoken of as going on all along since the first century:
(Matthew 9:37-10:1) . . .“Yes, the harvest is great, but the workers are few. 38 Therefore, beg the Master of the harvest to send out workers into his harvest.” 10:1 So he summoned his 12 disciples and gave them authority . . .
(2 Corinthians 9:10) . . .Now the One who abundantly supplies seed to the sower and bread for eating will supply and multiply the seed for you to sow and will increase the harvest of your righteousness.)
The explanation, I think, although it might sound a bit strained, is simply that the word about the coming parousia, synteleia, kingdom, harvest, etc., is so sure that we see should see it as if being fulfilled now. It helps us to see --through faith-- and therefore we are better prepared for the potential troubles of this system, even those which may threaten and take our lives. We may die, yet still "happily" await the harvest, because the things we do (in faith) go right with us.
(Revelation 14:13-16) And I heard a voice out of heaven say, “Write: Happy are the dead who die in union with the Lord from this time onward. Yes, says the spirit, let them rest from their labors, for the things they did go right with them.” 14 Then I saw, and look! a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was someone like a son of man, with a golden crown on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15 Another angel emerged from the temple sanctuary, calling with a loud voice to the one seated on the cloud: “Put your sickle in and reap, because the hour has come to reap, for the harvest of the earth is fully ripe.” 16 And the one seated on the cloud thrust his sickle into the earth, and the earth was reaped.
It's about the sureness of the promise, and therefore keeping that day "close in mind."
(2 Peter 1:10-21) 10 Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to make your calling and choosing sure for yourselves, for if you keep on doing these things, you will by no means ever fail. 11 In fact, in this way you will be richly granted entrance into the everlasting Kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.. . .16 No, it was not by following artfully contrived false stories that we made known to you the power and presence of our Lord Jesus Christ. . .19 So we have the prophetic word made more sure, and you are doing well in paying attention to it as to a lamp shining in a dark place (until day dawns and a daystar rises) in your hearts.
(2 Peter 3:12)  as you await and keep close in mind the presence of the day of Jehovah,. . .

Ring Ring.
”TrueAnointed Taxi Company. It’s your dime—start talking.”
“This is Patiently Sitting on my Hands! I just heard the Armageddon Express left the station. I didn’t want to miss that train. You were supposed to send a cab by. Now I’m in a terrible fix, and it’s your fault!!”
“Look, you dodo, we did what you said. You said send a cab over once they hired perfect personnel at the station who didn’t make any mistakes. We monitored just like you asked, and they never did! They made do with the guys they already had! Blame yourself!
”There’s another train leaving tomorrow on the WeepnNash Yurteeth line. If you want, we can send a cab by and pick you up for that.”
 

If you mean you are leaving the entire forum, I wish you weren't. I'll miss you, and so will several others, I'm sure. If you do mean the entire forum, then I hope all goes well. You've added a lot of important points over the last few years, in my opinion.

When have I ever done this…?..and nor do I view apostates as many do…in fact I view most so called apostates as ones with genuine hurts and griefs needing expressions???..and answers…
Do you not think I have not experienced first hand one of those  broken people in my family…hence my journey on forums?..same reasons as Anna.
could any one save him…no!…he is now awaiting the resurrection …but I will still stand by my statement….all forums as well as this one is used by demons as a play ground…and it’s the genuine ones who will be their victims…..
anyway….I shall say my farewells here..and I wish you all well……but I will say one thing before I go…there is no point in bringing  to light or tearing down Russell’s name…it’s cowardly as the man cannot represent himself and make an answer….I do t agree with all that is written by him  either…but he was one hell of a man to stand up in his time ..and dispense the food that he did..and fight to his death and put in its grave ..the teaching of hellfire and trinity…was he a flawed man…yes…..was he used by Jehovah ..without doubt…..Jehovah uses flawed men and women.
is it easy to publicise his errors..absolutely…sadly it will continue on…but remember..it’s just opinions..written by ones who never knew him or his era he lived in…

I don’t know of any forum besides this one that is not fully skewed one way or the other. Are there any? 
There are many sites run by those who unabashedly oppose Jehovah’s people. These I would never take part in, for I would feel like a troll if I did. You have to let someone else’s point of view stand on their own website. 
That’s not to say that I have never done it. I have in the past, on an experimental basis, to see what would happen. Never so much as to be thought of a ‘regular’ anywhere. I don’t do it anymore.
I even owe @Pudgy’s friend an apology, for I told him I had commented on a hostile site maybe 3 or 4 times. It was at least 12 times, he said! No, it was 3 or 4–why on earth would I lie about that? He responded that he used to be an engineer for the municipality, and as such, he learned to be precise. I told him that if he used to be a municipal engineer and no longer was, possibly the reason was that he could not count!! Furthermore, I would hate to visit whatever city he was the waterworks engineer in, for no doubt under his stewardship there wasn’t a single toilet there that flushed!
However, much later I realized he was right. There had been over a dozen, but only 3 or 4 recently. The rest were so long ago and on another website that I had forgotten about them! So maybe the toilets are okay after all.
Since then I have been on the Reddit site a few times, but no longer. That began when i found the Philly.com reporter wrote a front page anti-JW article and then returned to that forum where he was hailed as a hero! If he goes there for his “facts,” I figured, maybe I can go there and present a few that are more balanced. But I stopped. I was being a troll, and I don’t like to be a troll.
The downside of handling apostates the way we do is that we almost create an aura of mystique about them that they do not deserve. On some level, they are no more than Demas, who left Paul because he loved the present system of things. Plus, if someone, often a youth, falls for the oldest trick in the book—going somewhere because he has been advised not to—he or she comes across material that they are completely unprepared for, and may be stumbled. Thereafter few are able to help them because they don’t know what is there themselves. That’s originally why @Annabegan familiarizing herself with ‘apostate’ thinking. She had a teenage son, and did not want to find herself helpless in the event he came across hostile material & was troubled. (Last I heard, he is now an adult, doing just fine, has never displayed such curiosity, and is bemused that his mom keeps up with weirdos on the internet.)
I wrote ‘TrueTom vs the Apostates’ with the recommendation not to read it unless you were one troubled by all the bile opposers throw our way, that if you were one who could shut off the TV, pull the plug on the computer, or stuff the newspaper in the trash at a anti—JW presentation without ever giving another thought to it, then there’s no reason to read TTvtA,, but if not, well—that’s why I wrote it.
They have a mystique they do not deserve and part of that reason is we lend it to them by such insistent direction to STAY AWAY. It is good counsel, and it is scriptural counsel for sure, but everything is a matter of degree. I think it can be observed that if apostates were a huge issue in the first century (and they were—no NT writer does not deal with them, and two Bible chapters are exclusively devoted to them) then they should correspondingly be a huge issue today. Nobody has apostates so vitriolic as do Jehovah’s Witnesses. What if we didn’t have any? Wouldn’t you have to wonder why, since they are so plainly in the NT? ‘Our’ apostates exactly pattern themselves after the pattern of the first-century, and they thereby validate us. I am almost proud of ours. Ours are the best. 
The chapter ‘Who are the apostates?’ has quotes from a few scholarly types who point out that ‘apostates’ almost have to attack their former faith with brainwashing and mind-control memes, otherwise they have to explain how, if it is as bad as they now maintain it is, they could have been so stupid as to follow it in the first place. I wrote the book to forward a response with views that I had never seen presented before. I forget what the free download section is. At first it was the standard 10%, then I made the whole book free, then later 1/3–I forget what it is now.
https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/917311
At long last I’m getting books into print. Don’t Know Why is available now on Amazon, Tom Irregardless will be very soon, and TTvtA after that. Alas, it is already time for TTvtA—Round 2, but it will be a long time before that sees the light of day.
I think we have a “good” assortment of “apostates” on this forum in that some of them are flat-out crazy, and the ones that aren’t are over-the-top in their venom—‘hate OCD’ is how Aruana puts it, and it is hard to argue with regard to spiritual things that it is not so. Might some be persuaded by them? I’m sure some are, but I haven’t seen it happen here. With but one negligible exception, nobody here, good guys or bad, has budged one iota in basic orientation. Surely people can see that there is not the tiniest amount of spiritual food provided by ones here who oppose, even ones who claim anointed status. Maybe you can argue that the spiritual food provided by God’s organization is not without a pebble here and there, necessitating revisions as “the light gets brighter,” but there is none whatsoever from the hostile ones here.
Some of them are broken people. @JW Insider considered one of them not long ago and felt terribly for her. That doesn’t mean that they can be fixed by human hands. Horrible suffering is endemic in the world today, and some of it has happened in a Witness context. Hopefully they will respond to present reach-out efforts from the Christian organization, but just how, or if, they will respond must remain in their court.
I am reminded of a Bashevis Singer short story in which a 19th-century Jewish settlement in Poland is paralyzed because the priest (rabbi?) cannot bring himself to sacrifice animals. He just loves them too much; he is too kind and gentle. Finally one settler tells him that it’s fine to be merciful, but he doesn’t have to be more merciful than God. 
 
 

I remember from about 1962 to 1965 in the Truth many people were telling each other stories about demons, ectoplasm phantoms, and other "ghost stories", which I did not believe, but it was clear that THEY believed them, as they told them with serious rapt attention to detail.
...always relating someone elses' experiences ... never their own .... but they told the stories as if they were there.
I was warned repeatedly not to buy things at yard sales, or any used items, as they may be demon possessed, and owning any such item was inviting the demons into your home.
I am glad I spent several years in the Scouts (... before it went to hell in a hand basket), before I developed an interest in the Truth, so I was used to campfire "ghost stories" ... but the fact that most Witnesses I knew gave at least lip service to these beliefs made me wonder whether or not there was something to it.
Empirical "evidence" from such testimony slowly mounted in quantity and scope that it became clear that anything a Sister bought at a yard sale was demon possessed, but Brothers could freely buy tools and used cars without any fear whatsoever.
Later on, in slow, painful lessons, I came to realize we can be our own worst enemy.
.... and I often wonder about the specifics of the Apostle Paul's "thorn" in his side, and the fight he had within himself.
 

I have a set of about two dozen children's books where each book includes a child's imaginary friend and the interactions with that friend. I would never read these to my children, but psychologists say it is extremely common. I realized when talking to my 5 year old granddaughter at age 2 she was already talking a lot about an imaginary friend. When she was three and four  she also gave ages ranging from 5 to 25 to her dolls and stuffed animals and tells me stories about how each of them get along with each other. I don't recall anything so creative about myself or my own three children.
We had a brother from Florida/Bahamas in our congregation, the brother who handled the literature counter, and he was always telling stories about ghosts and demon possession from back home. Sometimes a crowd of young sisters would gather around the literature counter and I could correctly guess that he was telling another ghost story. But I also recognized that some of his stories were just plain old superstitions, or stories that turned out to be false, but that many people believe, such as snakes that turn themselves in a hoop and roll down hills to attack, or eat their own tails until just a snake head remains, etc. I was nearby when an elder told him to stop telling these stories, and he was defensive about how everyone should know the machinations of the Devil.
My wife and I studied with a couple who both claimed to hear demons in the house breaking dishes and whatnot. They always made a big deal about how they both heard it at the same time, and it wasn't boiler pipes, or rats, etc. (or ravens: Never Morse! Never Morse!) But it caught my attention that their attempts to call out Jehovah's name would sometimes work for only one of them, not the other, and which one was helped would sometimes be reversed. They both ended up being baptized and are still doing well, but they also told me later that at the time they were experimenting with sexual aberrations, wife-swapping, etc., and now they think it was their "guilt" talking, and maybe some drugs, too. 

I finished the entire interview. I would have had 100 questions. Then I was surprised that Barbara Anderson came on and actually asked her a lot of the questions I would have asked. I don't think this is so hard to figure out. She admits that her father probably gave her drugs, that her mother was a "weakling" who wouldn't have spoken up. She admits that her father made all the arrangements, and that it went on from the time she was about 3 until she was 15, but that this "activity" where she describes her demon as an entity that protected her, allowing her to become someone else, actually rarely happened again after she was 9. She also says that her relationship with her father deteriorated greatly at age 12. When she confronted her father, he said it was what it was. (Oddly, she also says that she must have fallen asleep right after these "sessions" and had no memory of it until waking up to go to school the next day.) The ability of a religious person to manipulate a victim often involves finding an analogy between light and darkness in scripture or "rationale" that makes them feel special or knowledgeable. In her case it was her father's "logic" about the sun and moon all being a part of the same good day.  (Greater and lesser luminary, light and dark.) 
I don't want to judge her or her father but, unfortunately, almost every detail lends support to a theory that she was abused by her father, and needed to find a way to finally suppress the actuality of incest. Most abuse victims suppress it well enough never to feel a need to talk about it until 40 or more years later. When she was seeking out Bill Bowen and Barbara Anderson, which she had "forgotten," but Barbara remembered, this would have been around the year 2000, when she felt she was running for her life -- and admits that she began her involvement in the occult. Both of those ex-JWs specialized in sexual abuse. She remained in denial for 15 years by pioneering, but then appears to still be in denial of the purpose for which she would have sought out Bowen and Anderson. I believe that most all the details she needed to keep it suppressed under a different cover were just becoming available in 2000 when she says she was asked if she remembered this and that from other people who had been through similar experiences. She gives plenty of evidence that her "memories" are not from experience but from things she read, probably mixed them with just enough real memories.
She was unaware that these tunnels hadn't been built yet, when she claimed to have seen them, and she had the tiling wrong, the color wrong, the lights wrong, etc.
She claims she knew these persons well, and called them all by their names, but uses the pronunciation "Jaracks" for Jaracz (which is pronounced Jerrus). That's evidence of memories through reading. She got Sister Sydlik's description completely wrong, although I'd guess it might easily fit descriptions of her on jehovahs-witnesses.com. She finally admitted that her memory might have been based on an aunt of hers instead. I said above that, based on her timeline, she would likely have been cementing these "necessary memories" around 2000. This is also evidenced by her "memory" that Brother Swingle smelled like ink. Well, I've worked right next to him in his office, and he didn't smell like ink in 1976-1982. No one else I knew  ever said they thought he did either, but curiously it was only in the year 2001, that the Watchtower first mentioned this (July 1, 2001):
Lyman Swingle began his service at Jehovah’s Witnesses’ world headquarters in Brooklyn, New York, on April 5, 1930. He served there for nearly 71 years. Lyman was first assigned to the bindery, then to the pressroom, and he also helped make ink. In fact, Brother Swingle spent about 25 years in the ink room. He also served for some 20 years as a member of the headquarters’ writing staff. For the final 17 years of his life, he worked in the Treasurer’s Office. -https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2001490
Except for the first couple years, he was actually an administrator/manager in the ink room. No one I knew ever thought he smelled like ink, because he didn't. Creating a "memory" out of something one reads during a time when one needs those memories for suppressive purposes is understandable. (For similar examples, watch "Professor T," a well-written  series on PBS. https://www.pbs.org/show/professor-t-uk/) [The first episode, "Anatomy of a Memory" is free on the pbs site.]
There are many more items like this. The blue color of her robes, seems it could have come from Clayton Woodworth's description of the blue cloth related to his own demon possession. The problematic nature of the book "Angels and Women" is something you can read about, but she had absolutely no knowledge of the inside contents of the book, except for the summary phrases using the exact expressions from Golden Age comments "about" the book. Yet she says it was read to her every night as a bedtime book by her father.
There is never anything definitive about these cases, but I have to say that everything can be seen to fit the patterns of sexual abuse cases perpetrated by the father. I feel terribly for the woman.

It is a great nuisance, let me tell you, but it has always been. Here I am trying to do nothing but think about God and they keep batting eyes at me.

I think that we are all adults here and it is not the Librarians duty to protect anyone. No one is master over our faith except we ourselves.
Is this the devils platform....or is it a platform for ones to state their opinions, and/or facts (which are up to us to verify). It would be sad if we were swayed by someone's mere opinions. It would be sad if we were swayed by someone stating something as truth or facts even before we checked whether what they were sayin was indeed true. I feel this platform gives me opportunity to keep an open mind, not be gullible, be more discerning  and actually make the truth my own.
I don't understand why you say these things about JWI, I don't seem to see anything about him being sly. As far as I know he has always been open about his beliefs, and always admitted that he could be wrong (all humans can be wrong). But it shouldn't matter to us what JWI thinks, or anyone else for that matter because in the end we are all accountable to God individually. If we are going to allow ourselves to be swayed by someone else's thinking besides God's, then it means we haven't learned much from the Bible. This forum is the least of my worries, honestly. But I accept you feel differently about it....

I think that we are all adults here and it is not the Librarians duty to protect anyone. No one is master over our faith except we ourselves.
Is this the devils platform....or is it a platform for ones to state their opinions, and/or facts (which are up to us to verify). It would be sad if we were swayed by someone's mere opinions. It would be sad if we were swayed by someone stating something as truth or facts even before we checked whether what they were sayin was indeed true. I feel this platform gives me opportunity to keep an open mind, not be gullible, be more discerning  and actually make the truth my own.
I don't understand why you say these things about JWI, I don't seem to see anything about him being sly. As far as I know he has always been open about his beliefs, and always admitted that he could be wrong (all humans can be wrong). But it shouldn't matter to us what JWI thinks, or anyone else for that matter because in the end we are all accountable to God individually. If we are going to allow ourselves to be swayed by someone else's thinking besides God's, then it means we haven't learned much from the Bible. This forum is the least of my worries, honestly. But I accept you feel differently about it....

I think that we are all adults here and it is not the Librarians duty to protect anyone. No one is master over our faith except we ourselves.
Is this the devils platform....or is it a platform for ones to state their opinions, and/or facts (which are up to us to verify). It would be sad if we were swayed by someone's mere opinions. It would be sad if we were swayed by someone stating something as truth or facts even before we checked whether what they were sayin was indeed true. I feel this platform gives me opportunity to keep an open mind, not be gullible, be more discerning  and actually make the truth my own.
I don't understand why you say these things about JWI, I don't seem to see anything about him being sly. As far as I know he has always been open about his beliefs, and always admitted that he could be wrong (all humans can be wrong). But it shouldn't matter to us what JWI thinks, or anyone else for that matter because in the end we are all accountable to God individually. If we are going to allow ourselves to be swayed by someone else's thinking besides God's, then it means we haven't learned much from the Bible. This forum is the least of my worries, honestly. But I accept you feel differently about it....

I think that we are all adults here and it is not the Librarians duty to protect anyone. No one is master over our faith except we ourselves.
Is this the devils platform....or is it a platform for ones to state their opinions, and/or facts (which are up to us to verify). It would be sad if we were swayed by someone's mere opinions. It would be sad if we were swayed by someone stating something as truth or facts even before we checked whether what they were sayin was indeed true. I feel this platform gives me opportunity to keep an open mind, not be gullible, be more discerning  and actually make the truth my own.
I don't understand why you say these things about JWI, I don't seem to see anything about him being sly. As far as I know he has always been open about his beliefs, and always admitted that he could be wrong (all humans can be wrong). But it shouldn't matter to us what JWI thinks, or anyone else for that matter because in the end we are all accountable to God individually. If we are going to allow ourselves to be swayed by someone else's thinking besides God's, then it means we haven't learned much from the Bible. This forum is the least of my worries, honestly. But I accept you feel differently about it....

I think that we are all adults here and it is not the Librarians duty to protect anyone. No one is master over our faith except we ourselves.
Is this the devils platform....or is it a platform for ones to state their opinions, and/or facts (which are up to us to verify). It would be sad if we were swayed by someone's mere opinions. It would be sad if we were swayed by someone stating something as truth or facts even before we checked whether what they were sayin was indeed true. I feel this platform gives me opportunity to keep an open mind, not be gullible, be more discerning  and actually make the truth my own.
I don't understand why you say these things about JWI, I don't seem to see anything about him being sly. As far as I know he has always been open about his beliefs, and always admitted that he could be wrong (all humans can be wrong). But it shouldn't matter to us what JWI thinks, or anyone else for that matter because in the end we are all accountable to God individually. If we are going to allow ourselves to be swayed by someone else's thinking besides God's, then it means we haven't learned much from the Bible. This forum is the least of my worries, honestly. But I accept you feel differently about it....

Hmmmmm……. I always thought those tunnels were used for giant radioactive ant men to get to central Australia. 
….. since the “other” stories about the tunnels have no proof, mine is EQUALLY valid. 
…… and Certainly worth what you paid for it.
For $15.00 I will send you a genuine hand drawn map!

There are also accounts of little green men on Mars, and Yeti, and Sasquatch. Fred Franz' time covers the 1920's through the 1990's. No one here can pin this story down any closer? The rooms branching off the tunnels were the residence buildings themselves and the laundry room. And a couple of openings for outside utility workers which might have been caged off to keep civilians like Bethelites from turning handles, or switching off electricity. The commissary was also attached to one tunnel. Some say there was food preparation in the tunnels, but this was actually because one of the buildings, not use for foot traffic, was used to transfer items from one of the buildings via an elevator. It would not be a place for any private conversations, because constant passerby's could hear.
It's these stories of rooms branching off that already tells me that the person telling the story is misremembering, lying, or might have been afraid of tunnels and let their claustrophobic imaginations run wild. 
I saw somewhere on the order of 0 little girls in 6 years, except on guided tours. Was the "first woman" also the "little girl?" Is it possible that the mental scars came first, which could also help to explain the story?
Where do I find these reports?

And what were people smoking in those pipes?