Anna

4Jah - Right now we have people who profess to be anointed. None of us know whether anyone who makes such a profession is one or not. I rather suspect Paul would say to them:
“Do not go beyond the things that are written,” so that you may not be puffed up with pride,+ favoring one against the other. 7  For who makes you different from another? Indeed, what do you have that you did not receive?+ If, in fact, you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not receive it?8  Are you already satisfied? Are you already rich? Have you begun ruling as kings+ without us? I really wish that you had begun ruling as kings, so that we also might rule with you as kings.+  1 Cor. 4:6-8
Now since the heavens are Gods throne and the earth his footstool and all things on earth belong necessarily to Jesus Christ, I'd say through the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked ones, the whole of those who profess to Christianity are making professions of being the earthly part of his kingdom. This distinction has yet to be made perfectly clear as the wheat and the weeds are still growing together. "At THAT time will the righteous shine". Now this may be even more far removed from what everyone's thinking, but what it means to "shine" could mean 'reflecting like mirrors the glory of Jehovah" or it could mean this is what these appear to be in their resurrected and glorified state. I'm not dogmatic about this, but I do see that hard line dogmatism is usually about power over another's conscience.
All those who are really wearing invisible crowns (and are in recognition of their own degraded state) will not be spending their time pulling rank or worrying about others who may or may not have pulled rank as it were.
To go further, I see this in a similar jaundiced view as did Paul when he considered the chronic harping on circumcision in his time : 
 4  But that matter came up because of the false brothers brought in quietly,+ who slipped in to spy on the freedom+ we enjoy in union with Christ Jesus, so that they might completely enslave us;+ 5  we did not yield in submission to them,+ no, not for a moment,* so that the truth of the good news might continue with you.6  But regarding those who seemed to be important+—whatever they were makes no difference to me, for God does not go by a man’s outward appearance—those highly regarded men imparted nothing new to me....
12  I wish the men who are trying to unsettle you would emasculate themselves.* - Ga. 5:12
To wit - He will cull all things which cause stumbling. It doesn't matter if what's causing stumbling is a person wearing an invisible crown or not. All who profess to be under this kingdom "whether in pretense or in truth" will be culled. A Christian should focus on THEMSELVES and THEIR responsibility and let God sort the rest. 
 

I have noticed that the desire to see God's promises fulfilled (nothing wrong with that of course), drives the human spirit to "predict" or "hope for" the end always in their life time. The pattern is clear: Russell hoped for the end in 1874 then 1914, Rutherford 1925, Franz 1975, the 80's GB by the end of the 20th century, today's GB between now and aprox. 2035.
Each generation would say their children aren't going to make it to school....now those  children have children of their own...and grandchildren
There are recent discussions on JW talk with brothers and sisters giving this old world no more than 5 years, and there are a few optimistic ones who say within a year. If you were to ask members of your congregation when do they think the end will come, you will hear similar sentiments. Many believe the pandemic will lead straight into the GT.
Of course logically, the end will come in someone's life time, and one day we will be right.
I admire Isaac Newton because his "prediction" defied the rules of wishing for it in one's lifetime. For that reason he seems more believable. But of course I hope he is wrong...because of course I would like it to happen in our lifetime! Oh, the irony of it! 😂
It is not wrong to hope for good things to come, what is wrong is our serving God only for that reason, and building our hope up to the point of expectation delayed making us sick.
You have probably heard this sentiment before, it's great, and I like to remind myself of it periodically: "Plan ahead as if Armageddon won't come in your lifetime, but live your life as if it will come tomorrow"

The untruth doesn't but understanding does. And then the untruth is corrected and becomes truth. It happens all the time. As understanding progresses so does knowledge. It happens in science, technology medicine, relationships etc. People are imperfect, they make mistakes.
At the beginning of the pandemic we were told that wearing masks is not necessary because it does not really offer any protection. Now we are all told to wear masks because it was found that they do indeed offer protection. Was saying that masks were not necessary, a lie? Essentially it was, but it was said in good faith. Now, as knowledge has progressed, we know better.
You do not allow anyone to make mistakes. Thankfully, Jehovah does as is shown in countless Bible accounts, and that is what matters.
I am sorry that you were ever subservient to men first, and God and Christ second. 

The question is never "where should we go?" but "whom shall we follow?". We follow (as we are able) Jesus. Now the tough nut, is just how much diversity of conscience and diversity of opinion as to what is an absolute requirement to be considered faithful by Jesus, not by some external entity are we willing to tolerate? If we aren't careful, we'll be creating a cult of one, just ourselves. We absolutely need association with fellow believers, but again, how much diversity are we willing to allow? If we look with a critical eye at the accounts we read of life as a Christian in the first century, we see a lot of diversity and a lot of contention. No one was living their faith in lock-step with each other. People differed as to their opinions on following the law (or not). People were engaging in gossip. People were bad-mouthing their brothers, and Paul and others as well. Everything bad that could happen, did happen then. But they had a core hope. They all agreed that Jesus was the messiah. They had predictions about when the end would come (and they were wrong too). I understand it's harder for some than for others to remain when others don't share their views or when others appear to insist you share theirs. Guess what? The same thing happened in the first century.
So I asked before and I'll ask again. Was your experience all negative, or were there just aspects of it you found you simply couldn't reconcile? What of your beliefs do you have with which you can share with the wider group of people in the world who refer to themselves (and believe it) as "Christians".
Once I was asked by a person I'd called on for years whether I thought it was absolutely necessary to be a card-carrying JW to survive Armageddon. I said "I hope not. Because 27k hours later of talking w/people at the door has let me know how I'm no better (and probably worse) than a lot of people." He then asked "So why are you here then? Why do you do this?" I said "Inertia...that and for the same reason I lift weights and run. The weights don't change and the roads I run on don't change, but I do for the effort. Doing this work changed me and continues to change me, and I'd like to think for the better."

Plan as if Alan will be out of your hair tomorrow. Live as if you know he won’t be.

I have noticed that the desire to see God's promises fulfilled (nothing wrong with that of course), drives the human spirit to "predict" or "hope for" the end always in their life time. The pattern is clear: Russell hoped for the end in 1874 then 1914, Rutherford 1925, Franz 1975, the 80's GB by the end of the 20th century, today's GB between now and aprox. 2035.
Each generation would say their children aren't going to make it to school....now those  children have children of their own...and grandchildren
There are recent discussions on JW talk with brothers and sisters giving this old world no more than 5 years, and there are a few optimistic ones who say within a year. If you were to ask members of your congregation when do they think the end will come, you will hear similar sentiments. Many believe the pandemic will lead straight into the GT.
Of course logically, the end will come in someone's life time, and one day we will be right.
I admire Isaac Newton because his "prediction" defied the rules of wishing for it in one's lifetime. For that reason he seems more believable. But of course I hope he is wrong...because of course I would like it to happen in our lifetime! Oh, the irony of it! 😂
It is not wrong to hope for good things to come, what is wrong is our serving God only for that reason, and building our hope up to the point of expectation delayed making us sick.
You have probably heard this sentiment before, it's great, and I like to remind myself of it periodically: "Plan ahead as if Armageddon won't come in your lifetime, but live your life as if it will come tomorrow"

Yes, it seems like it. Not sure what your point is though 😀

Yes, it seems like it. Not sure what your point is though 😀

This reminds me of what the widow of the Doctor Seuss books said. He had vehemently resisted commercialization of his work during his life, but as soon as he died he was outmaneuvered. “If Ted could see this he’d say, “I’m glad I’m dead,” she said.  

I am lazy. I suppose I also don't want people to get the idea that I have any original ideas. I want to positively affirm that.

I have noticed that the desire to see God's promises fulfilled (nothing wrong with that of course), drives the human spirit to "predict" or "hope for" the end always in their life time. The pattern is clear: Russell hoped for the end in 1874 then 1914, Rutherford 1925, Franz 1975, the 80's GB by the end of the 20th century, today's GB between now and aprox. 2035.
Each generation would say their children aren't going to make it to school....now those  children have children of their own...and grandchildren
There are recent discussions on JW talk with brothers and sisters giving this old world no more than 5 years, and there are a few optimistic ones who say within a year. If you were to ask members of your congregation when do they think the end will come, you will hear similar sentiments. Many believe the pandemic will lead straight into the GT.
Of course logically, the end will come in someone's life time, and one day we will be right.
I admire Isaac Newton because his "prediction" defied the rules of wishing for it in one's lifetime. For that reason he seems more believable. But of course I hope he is wrong...because of course I would like it to happen in our lifetime! Oh, the irony of it! 😂
It is not wrong to hope for good things to come, what is wrong is our serving God only for that reason, and building our hope up to the point of expectation delayed making us sick.
You have probably heard this sentiment before, it's great, and I like to remind myself of it periodically: "Plan ahead as if Armageddon won't come in your lifetime, but live your life as if it will come tomorrow"

I have noticed that the desire to see God's promises fulfilled (nothing wrong with that of course), drives the human spirit to "predict" or "hope for" the end always in their life time. The pattern is clear: Russell hoped for the end in 1874 then 1914, Rutherford 1925, Franz 1975, the 80's GB by the end of the 20th century, today's GB between now and aprox. 2035.
Each generation would say their children aren't going to make it to school....now those  children have children of their own...and grandchildren
There are recent discussions on JW talk with brothers and sisters giving this old world no more than 5 years, and there are a few optimistic ones who say within a year. If you were to ask members of your congregation when do they think the end will come, you will hear similar sentiments. Many believe the pandemic will lead straight into the GT.
Of course logically, the end will come in someone's life time, and one day we will be right.
I admire Isaac Newton because his "prediction" defied the rules of wishing for it in one's lifetime. For that reason he seems more believable. But of course I hope he is wrong...because of course I would like it to happen in our lifetime! Oh, the irony of it! 😂
It is not wrong to hope for good things to come, what is wrong is our serving God only for that reason, and building our hope up to the point of expectation delayed making us sick.
You have probably heard this sentiment before, it's great, and I like to remind myself of it periodically: "Plan ahead as if Armageddon won't come in your lifetime, but live your life as if it will come tomorrow"

I have noticed that the desire to see God's promises fulfilled (nothing wrong with that of course), drives the human spirit to "predict" or "hope for" the end always in their life time. The pattern is clear: Russell hoped for the end in 1874 then 1914, Rutherford 1925, Franz 1975, the 80's GB by the end of the 20th century, today's GB between now and aprox. 2035.
Each generation would say their children aren't going to make it to school....now those  children have children of their own...and grandchildren
There are recent discussions on JW talk with brothers and sisters giving this old world no more than 5 years, and there are a few optimistic ones who say within a year. If you were to ask members of your congregation when do they think the end will come, you will hear similar sentiments. Many believe the pandemic will lead straight into the GT.
Of course logically, the end will come in someone's life time, and one day we will be right.
I admire Isaac Newton because his "prediction" defied the rules of wishing for it in one's lifetime. For that reason he seems more believable. But of course I hope he is wrong...because of course I would like it to happen in our lifetime! Oh, the irony of it! 😂
It is not wrong to hope for good things to come, what is wrong is our serving God only for that reason, and building our hope up to the point of expectation delayed making us sick.
You have probably heard this sentiment before, it's great, and I like to remind myself of it periodically: "Plan ahead as if Armageddon won't come in your lifetime, but live your life as if it will come tomorrow"

Yes. As Jesus Christ is my leader. (Of course I remember some elders questioning my methods once and when I showed the example Jesus set and how I was "following it closely" one said... yeah, but now you're tail-gaiting Jesus)
 

Yes, of course. I think most who write here write for some other motive. It is certainly true of me.
Sure. It could be I’ve been here too long. I’ve come to regard the forum as “mine”—indeed, some have thought it is—and here I ignore that good advise with impunity. I suppose that’s not good—it certainly is not according to our training. Alas, I’ve come to know the characters too well, or at least have become set in my view of the characters. I have to set my own terms for being here, because I think it is not right to earnestly discuss spiritual things with those who unequivocally hate the Christian organization. (not to imply that you have no problem with it, of course. I don’t think it. You’re doing what all faithful visitors do, what I did at one time.) But neither do I want to be seen as an attack dog.
Having said that, see how long it takes for that idiot 4Jah to get on your nerves. You can write a post about torture and he will attach a laughing emoji to it. He asks JWI about Santa Claus, for he is not sure himself, and JWI says there is no Santa Claus. Then he calls JWI a hypocrite for observing December. 
(Let the reader use discernment, but if he doesn’t want to, that’s okay too. Maybe I’ve been here too long.)

I'm not sure how following this scripture is controversial.
BTW - I think the obsession some have w/the term 'anointed' and all the associated baggage is a distraction.
Yes, there are some who appear to be engaging in GB-Anointed worship, but that's their problem, not mine.
The scriptures tell me what to do, how to live and what to hope for and I try to live by these.
I could obsess about obesity in the congregation too if I wanted to. Let's say have people step on scales and if their BMI wasn't w/in a healthy weight, then they'd be disqualified from serving in any capacity.
But I don't.
I haven't been above teasing people at times, like when one brother asked me if I watched the game. I replied "No. I was probably praying or in the ministry."
There are always some who people imagine (or they themselves imagine of themselves) that they are "superfine apostles" - 2 Cor. 11:5 There were in the 1st century and will be today the same issues.

I remember one bro who was "stumbled" when he moved to another state and on his return he said "the brothers there don't let me do anything!" (he was prominent locally before he moved - his illustrations are still in the pubs) - I said to him "What! You mean they won't let you go in FS??"
He got my point, but he wasn't amused.
In the congregation there are always going to be people who aren't happy and have to wrestle to see who's plumage is shinier than the next.
That's not me. I suppose if I were a Calvinist, I'd be more likely to embrace the "Doctrine of Total Depravity" ... Sounds cool doesn't it!
 
‘I Am A Depraved Wretch,’ Says Calvinist Smugly

BURLINGTON, VT—According to preordained sources, a 37-point Calvinist bravely and openly admitted his own depravity this week during a brutal intellectual beat-down of an ignorant atheist. Witnesses were shocked by the young man’s great honesty about his fallen condition, in addition to his luminous intellect and well-oiled beard.
  “Listen, it’s written plainly in the Doctrine of Total Depravity,” he said. “I’m totally depraved. I’m a worthless sinner with no merit deserving of God’s grace...duh. If you deny that, it’s because God in his mercy has not yet chosen to awaken your spirit with the divine light of his unmerited favor. You are an enemy of God and you are completely repulsive to Him. I say this with gentleness and respect because I love you.”
As the Calvinist spoke through a thick cloud of the finest pipe tobacco smoke, sources say they detected a hint of smugness in his smile. The atheist detected the smug attitude and pointed it out.
"Point proved!" said the Calvinist. "I am a depraved sinner and my smugness proves that point!"
The hapless atheist replied, "I don't know... I don't feel like I'm really that bad of a person."
This was the moment the young Calvinist had been waiting for. He set down his pipe, looked at the poor deceived sinner through narrowed eyes, and with a wry smile, demolished the atheist’s puny argument once and for all. “...by what standard?” he said.
The atheist stood there dumbfounded with a dumb atheist look on his face. He knew he had been beaten and was left with no choice but to repent.
Sources in heaven say that thanks to this bold, brilliant Calvinist’s bold and brilliant witness, God decided to go ahead and choose the atheist for salvation before the foundation of the world.

That last post was as much a bit of self-analysis as it was of anyone else. I'm sure anyone who's been associated has gone through some dark moments.
Reminds me of David, "a man after God's own heart", the beloved and how he actually left to work as a mercenary for the philistine king of Gath when he was being hunted by the anointed of Jehovah - Saul (his dark moments), and how he vowed not to lift up his hand against the anointed of Jehovah, and how Jehovah helped him to fulfill that oath when it seemed he might fail in that regard when he was on his way to fight w/the Philistines when at Aphek the men w/Achish complained and he was sent along w/his men back to where they'd been. This prevented David from being in the battle. But it also may have sent a signal that there might have been a rearward attack which interestingly may have led to Saul's forces not covering the entrance to the Jezreel Valley leading to his ultimate death on Mt Gilboa - Jehovah's judgment.
Some people may feel the need to flee from whatever persecution they may be feeling (whether real or imagined) but leaving the judgment to Jehovah strikes me as the course of wisdom. Even non-JWs like Stephen Covey (I remember an illustration of his) said "chasing the serpent is what drives the poison to the heart".
So maybe you got bit, and maybe you got yourself bit unknowingly by poking your hand into some "hole" the advice not to return evil for evil (or even perceived evil) is good advice for anyone.

May as well include this list:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dates_predicted_for_apocalyptic_events
https://www.openculture.com/2015/10/in-1704-isaac-newton-predicts-the-world-will-end-in-2060.html
I used to joke that if it doesn't come by 2034 (120 years from 1914) that I might reconsider. (Somehow people didn't think that as funny as I did.)

The untruth doesn't but understanding does. And then the untruth is corrected and becomes truth. It happens all the time. As understanding progresses so does knowledge. It happens in science, technology medicine, relationships etc. People are imperfect, they make mistakes.
At the beginning of the pandemic we were told that wearing masks is not necessary because it does not really offer any protection. Now we are all told to wear masks because it was found that they do indeed offer protection. Was saying that masks were not necessary, a lie? Essentially it was, but it was said in good faith. Now, as knowledge has progressed, we know better.
You do not allow anyone to make mistakes. Thankfully, Jehovah does as is shown in countless Bible accounts, and that is what matters.
I am sorry that you were ever subservient to men first, and God and Christ second. 

You know what's funny, is that most of the people I've seen who were partakers were weird in some way or another.
We're told that their spirit tells them. We're not supposed to question it.
We do of course. We try to correlate their external behavior and appearance w/being 'anointed'
I have to say I don't know who is or isn't, but it doesn't matter. It's not as if someone's personal profession makes them any more knowledgeable or holy than anyone else in any given congregation.
I remember the 1st memorial I went to. There was all this fanfare and yet the talk was dull and we all had to be careful not to spill the wine and everyone's ears were listening quietly to see if they heard any crunching sounds. ("Psst! Did you see that! So and so partook!") Then we had to rush out so the next congregation could get in.
I thought it all pretty silly at the time and over the years if I saw anyone not one foot into the grave w/decades of service I thought "Huh". But I reconciled myself to the decisions others made as their problem (if any) and not mine.
Suppose someone professes to be of the anointed, should I change my behavior towards them? No. Defer to them when they present a scriptural argument that doesn't wash? No.
I have seen though that a lot of people have been looking at all this either waiting for them to die off, like they are the sands in the hourglass counting down to the end of this system.
Not that I blame them. Any more than I blame anyone. I do see, however in some the desire to be in charge, and I'm always suspicious of anyone who revels in telling others what to do and how to do it.
If I've gotten in any trouble w/fellow elders it's because I don't dunk on publishers when I could. So sister X is weird and partakes. So sister X has a lot of opinions. Hey, maybe she has something to say, maybe she's just feeling lonely and unremarkable and wants to feel remarkable. Fine.
One CO said when some bros complained about another bro that he didn't do things unless he got a lot of praise - "So praise him. No skin off your nose."

Anything is possible!

Fortunately I never acquiesced to any organization. I used my own God-given conscience from the moment I walked into a kingdom hall. Some have left because they felt they needed to, and some have stayed. There is no universal response. It isn't even necessary for me to spend time defending an organization. Instead I'd rather spend it learning more about the Bible, bible history, archaeology, textual analysis and trying to better frame answers which help people who are looking for good answers to the emotional problem of evil. (the logical one already dealt with).
Can a person be a Christian w/o attachment to an organization?
I'm certain they can, but it's quite hard, and then one wonders what the point of it all is if there is not at least one other person? "When two or more are gathered in my name..."
If one does decide to associate in some way with a group, even a nondenominational one, the chances are quite likely these believe, and quite strongly so, that anything you've "learned" in association w/Jehovah's Witnesses is tainted, and needs to be expunged from your mind. (Is literally "everything you learned" wrong?)
There simply aren't any groups of people who won't in one way or another apply pressure to you to believe the things they believe, or remain silent where you don't. The tyrannical elements w/in people are too strong to keep in check. They always surface.
As an exercise, type up your list of core beliefs and compare these to the myriad groups around. Can you find one which accords w/your core beliefs in every way?
If you can, then consider yourself fortunate, because I haven't yet found a person associating w/a religious group yet who embraces fully every thing the "leadership" ("call no one leader, rabbi, father" - Mt 23:8-10) teaches.
Just thinking out loud here, but I think some of the reasons some who have left don't really leave (besides having the annoyance of family members still in) are 1. The time spent is viewed as an investment which didn't pan out as expected and loss aversion is forcing a return (you might think, to one's 'vomit' - Pr. 26:11) ...but it's the economics fallacy of the sunk cost (but consider, was there no gain?) 2. There are no other places where these can go where anyone can even begin to understand what it means to actually BE one of Jehovah's Witnesses - It's a love-hate relationship, and no one in the world can begin to understand if they haven't been there 3. Very close to the previously mentioned...The loss of so much variety and association over years (along with memories that one cannot expunge from one's own head which are so damningly pleasant) which is missed one needs the contact to work out the "poison", to reframe the experiences which are there inside. In this these often find people who will engage them in such a way so as to reinforce the reasons these left.
It's unfortunate that this is what it is. The human condition. Longing for a full realization of a utopia which looks as if it will never come, and damning the mirage for "tricking us" into believing to was real, and not only real, but about to become real for everyone on the planet.
It's difficult for people to leave, no doubt. I've known a few. Some have embraced ideas which they would have strongly objected to on scriptural grounds years ago, some have lost all faith in God and become atheists or agnostics. This is a shame to me. It's like getting so close and because of blemishes real or imagined these abandon all faith, and the beautiful vision of the future under the kingdom. I applaud those who don't lose their faith and perhaps there are quite a number of these - I don't know, but I hope so. I can't help but believe that the lesson of understanding that mistaking an organization for the actualization of God's kingdom is one that these are going to have to learn at some point. When they do, I'm hoping they can let the anger go. If there is discipline to be meted out to organizations or individuals in organizations I'd say to remember Jesus, when he had a dispute w/Satan about the disposition of Moses body - "May Jehovah rebuke you" and if there's rebuking to be done, he'll certainly do it.

Yes, of course.

THAT I can explain to you any day of the week with my eyes closed.

Yes. Thanks. Hope no one was confused. Now I finally understand why CC gave me the downvote. 😉