TrueTomHarley

The investigation was quick and concluded that there was nothing to it. The detained Witnesses had employed “martial arts techniques,” it said, and the abuse they complained of was no more than an attempt to restrain them from doing so.

On 11/16/2019 at 1:52 AM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

That reminds me of people who claimed they used to play Beatle's records backwards ( I don't even know how you could do that ...) , and claimed you could hear voices saying "Serve Satan" or some such nonsense.

You do it by putting the turntable in neutral and spinning it backwards with your finger. When you do, you hear repeatedly and very distinctly, “Turn me on, dead man.” (Revolution #9) When you play “Strawberry Fields Forever” forward, you hear at the very end, “I buried Paul.”

The rumor was that Paul, of the wildly popular only-game-in-town Beatles, had died some years ago and that the other three had covered it up, hiring a look-alike to take his place. This look-alike was referred to as “Billy Shears” from the Sgt Pepper’s album, who worried “what would you do if I sang out of tune?” but took solace that he would “get by with a little help from his friends.”

The Beatles cross the street “Abbey Road” in single file on the cover of the album of that name. John leads, dressed in white—he is the preacher. Ringo is next, in black—he is the undertaker. Paul is third—barefoot as a corpse would be, cigarette in hand, though he supposedly quit them years ago—he is the dead man. George is fourth, dressed in workman’s clothes—he is the ditchdigger. The license plate of the VW just over the curb is “28 IF,” the age Paul would be IF he was still alive. The first song of that album, “Come together,” revolves around sounds that could best be characterized as a shovel piling on dirt, as in a burial. References abound to going on without Paul: “He says, ‘one and one and one is three,’ Hold on to his armchair, you can feel his disease.”

The Sgt Pepper’s album cover features the old Beatles looking down upon the new Beatles, renamed Sgt Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band. The scene is of a burial—“Beatles” is spelled out in floral arrangement, and a host of other famous, though dead, people—Albert Einstein, Mae West, Edgar Allen Poe, about thirty in all—join the old Beatles in looking on.

This is just for starters. Supposedly, the three surviving Beatles had planned this for years, hiding clues in their records.

Why do I know this in such detail? I was a college student at the time. When this story broke, campus life came to a standstill. Kids were glued to campus radio, which cancelled all other programming to run with this 24/7. There was radio tie-in with major schools, which were also at standstills as regards academics activity. Students would call in with the latest theorizing. There were many in our school that cut classes so as not to miss a word. My roommate urged me (unsuccessfully) to install a reverse gear in my record player so as to play all Beatles songs backwards in search of additional clues. Had it been feasible, I probably would have done it.

Outlandish rumors were bandied about and accepted as gospel. The feed station—from UCLA, perhaps—featured unending call-ins and interviews of the latest “research.” On the back  cover of the Sgt Pepper’s album, one of the four—Paul’s replacement, I think—is conducting the band. Superimposed on the cover are the lyrics to the songs within. By this means, “Paul’s” finger points to the words from “She’s Leaving Home,” “Wednesday morning at five o’clock.” If you called a certain number—also listed in the album somewhere, I think—you found yourself connected to hell. I think that if you pressed the matter, you risked losing your soul. Don’t ever let anyone tell you that they are “young adults” in college. They are big children, reveling in the [then] newfound freedoms of drugs and sex, free of parental supervision,  hopefully on their way to becoming adults.

This Beatles’ plot was  the dominating concern of students then and it lasted for days on end.

The weekend came. Maybe it was even some holiday. I went home, about 250 miles away. NOBODY KNEW ANYTHING ABOUT THIS! On campus, NOBODY KNEW ANYTHING ELSE! I couldn’t believe how oblivious the out-of-touch farts were to the greatest story of our time! Finally, after a day or two, there was a brief snippet at the end of the “World News Report” and it was in the form of a scolding. Walter Chronkite or his like ran a line of two, briefly acknowledged that the Beatles—those precocious kids—were having a laugh on the world, but what a sick laugh it was.

I wrote this up long ago. It does me good to recall it. Sure—I have nothing else to do with my time:

https://www.tomsheepandgoats.com/2010/01/hurry-gwen-theyre-killing-people.html

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

But, i know that you understand what i was talking about. Your objection about my comment is "just for the sake of the public and to write something". :)))

Yes, I do understand what you were talking about and what you were talking about was ridiculous. You instantly pounce on Jehovah’s Witnesses for much lesser violations of logic.

Notice how your ally-of-late agreed with me and not you? It is because he still believes in God. He still thinks this life is not all there is.

If you believe in God, my remark makes sense. If you believe material things are all there are, they may not. Just be honest about where you are coming from. It is no more than what Paul said:

“But a physical man does not accept the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know them, because they are examined spiritually.”  1 Corinthians 2:14

16 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Those people who going to war because they want to help people, are ready to put  themselves  in danger situation for (theoretically) only one reason - to help known and unknown people on cost of own life.

WWI, WWII, Vietnam, Gulf War, Spanish-American, Civil War, to name a few. “People helping people:”—I admit I have never looked upon it that way. You are on to something, Srecko.

To be sure, many will go to war with noble intentions. What the overall picture shows, however, is that “man is dominating man to his injury.” Isn’t there a religion somewhere that points to the solution to that predicament?

“Look! A sower went out to sow.  As he was sowing, some seeds fell alongside the road, and the birds came and ate them up.  Others fell on rocky ground where there was not much soil, and they immediately sprang up because the soil was not deep.   But when the sun rose, they were scorched, and they withered because they had no root.  Others fell among the thorns, and the thorns came up and choked them.  Still others fell on the fine soil, and they began to yield fruit, this one 100 times more, that one 60, the other 30.  But a few fell upon Jack’s lawn, and he said”

12 hours ago, Jack Ryan said:

You sir, can kiss my ass and fuck off, I’m going back to bed. (Belches loud and slams the door shut)

“What is more, I do indeed also consider all things to be loss on account of the excelling value of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have taken the loss of all things and I consider them as a lot of refuse, that I may gain Christ. However, my neighbor Jack does not see it this way. He says:”

12 hours ago, Jack Ryan said:

You sir, can kiss my ass and fuck off, I’m going back to bed. (Belches loud and slams the door shut)

“Again the Kingdom of the heavens is like a traveling merchant seeking fine pearls.  Upon finding one pearl of high value, he went away and promptly sold all the things he had and bought it. And then he shows it to his neighbor Jack, who says:”

12 hours ago, Jack Ryan said:

You sir, can kiss my ass and fuck off, I’m going back to bed. (Belches loud and slams the door shut)

The foul-mouthed crybaby

5 hours ago, Matthew9969 said:

Would dying by refusing a blood transfusion be suicide?

54 minutes ago, Anna said:

Would dying by going to war for your country be suicide?

That is an excellent counter-question for the troublemaker and his two cheerleaders.

From the standpoint of the soldier’s countrymen, no—it is not suicide. However, from the standpoint of the other 99% of the world’s population, it may not be suicide, but it is stark raving crazy misguided, putting trust in a delusion of self-interested superiority, and his death is an absolute waste, rewarded only with a monument from his fellow delusionites. 

What reward does God have in store for those who keep his laws even under duress?

1 hour ago, Anna said:

Even my Bible study, an educated Chemistry teacher, understood the role of JW publications.

50 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

Many who accept a JW 'bible study' are not so highly educated and will be prepared to accept JW teachings and written words as true.

She puts a bug in the ear of the chemistry teacher to tell them it is okay.

22 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

I wonder if Almighty God and His son are being, and will continue to be, so forgiving of the Governing Body as you seem to say JW's are.

I did note in our assigned Bible reading for this week the 2 John 4 verse: “I rejoice very much because I have found some of your children walking in the truth.”

He did not find “all” of them doing so. He found “some” of them doing so. And what of the ones who were not?

If the atmosphere was anything like it is here, the brothers taking the lead were being blamed for all of them. Even the fact that they are now regarded as “inspired” would not have saved them in the eyes of their critics, who did not believe it for a second.

42 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Yes. And for the most part that account will be: “Oops,” and that will be the end of it.

That’s a little too flippant. I’ll walk it back. @Srecko Sostar @4Jah2me

Even @Witness

“To he who has been given much, much will be expected” is more like it, and the GB operates, in my view, in harmony with that.

Sometimes in pushing back, one overreacts. The idea that I was trying to convey is that humans are not perfect, even those with responsibility, and Jehovah’s Witnesses accept that as a given.

20 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

OK Mr Harley, you win. 

That is very gracious of you. 

Upon reading your words I tried to enter the kitchen to pour myself a cup of coffee, but I got my big head stuck in the door.

Moreover, (I would not expect you to know this) this is all the reasoning of the Appeals court. It was overturned in the Supreme Court (Canada). JTR is just weaving this thread around the verdict that he wishes had prevailed.

51 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

We can argue or make consensus about "core" teachings and about those that are "less" important teachings. If such categorization even exist!!! 

Of course they do! It is true with any discipline.

51 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

For example, blood transfusion.

1) CORE teaching is: we do not take transfusion of whole blood.

2) MINOR teaching is: we can take blood fractions.

What makes this two teachings to be in 2 categories?

The first follows from a clear Bible law to “abstain from blood,” one of the few carryovers from the Mosaic law.

The second is an adaption to modern technology and reflects an unwillingness to dictate people’s consciences. Some will say that even the tiniest fraction is blood. Others will say, “it’s not a cake until you mix the ingredients.”

51 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken

Yes. And for the most part that account will be: “Oops,” and that will be the end of it. It is only you who expect perfection from these guys. Witnesses don’t. They didn’t sign on like kids expecting Santa Claus. 

(Plus, you would have to define what you mean by “empty.” Just because something is modified in the light of new developments does not mean the original was “empty.”)

Always the quarreling point will be the divine/human interface. It was even true with Judas. He and God were tight—there were no problems there! But that fellow that claimed to be the Messiah was not at all what Judas had been expecting. And those yo-yos he was attracting—don’t even go there.

18 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

Once again you make fun of my comment.

Well....you have to think through what you say before you say it. If you say something dumb and present it as accusatory fact, what do you expect?

18 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

My point was that if contracts / agreements were in place that they would have to be completed until such an agreement came to it's official end. End of contract.

The guy was a realtor. Do realtors make deals for life? Of course if he was in the midst of a contract, we could expect that contract to be respected—otherwise he could sue whoever broke it for damages.

It is his repeat business that suffered, not his individual contracts, which only last a few weeks, or at most, months.

I have used several realtors in my lifetime. Not one courtroom said I had to keep the same one forever.

18 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

My point was that if contracts / agreements were in place that they would have to be completed 

There are a great many “ifs” and “seems” in your accusations. Why don’t you nail them down with more certainty before going on the offensive with them?

3 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

As for a Bible study, the title is actually misrepresentation. It is actual a book study sometimes using the scriptures as reference

In school, I studied math. But I refused a textbook because that was not really math, but was a book about math. 

I also studied science. But I refused a textbook because that was not really science, but was a book about science. 

What! Those frauds were trying to indoctrinate me!  But I was too clever for them.

7 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

Yes My Harley you do poke your nose i

Well....you do have me there.

On 11/11/2019 at 3:11 PM, Matthew9969 said:

If I read that right, the elders expected him to kick his 15 year old daughter out of the house?

You didn’t read it right.

On 11/12/2019 at 1:30 PM, 4Jah2me said:

I would have thought he would have had legal contracts for his business which would mean that customers would be under legal contract to continue business as usual. It does show the lack of love from JW's though, if they deliberately caused problems to his business. 

Of course. When I was in business, I always made legal contracts with my customers that they remain customers no matter what. I made it illegal for them to take their business elsewhere.

44 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

We can see on here what happens to anyone that should dare to say the GB are not the F&DS.

I don’t think that we can see it here. In fact, JWI has said just that about the GB, or something very close. 

This is the second time you have addressed JWI and I have interrupted before he can answer. Ideally, I won’t do it again. But you make very strong statements on things you do not understand. You had no idea the role of the workbook, for example, and yet made the most ludicrous charge about it. 

If this is going to be your gig, it may be that you should attend congregation meetings for awhile, or even accept a Bible study, so that you can familiarize yourself with what you have decided to weigh in on.

5 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

I do believer the Workbook is the item used at mid-week meetings, when telling the congregants exactly what they should be preaching. And as I had mentioned that congregants were told what to preach i thought it right to reference the Workbook. 

Oh. I see. That perception is incorrect, though. Sample presentations are included, but they are but a small part of what is contained in the workbook. The workbook is simply the program for the upcoming meeting, making it possible to prepare for it. Any meeting of any sort  is better if you can prepare for it.

The segment you refer to runs about 15 minutes in an overall meeting of nearly two hours.

I haven’t used one of the sample presentations in ages. For the most part, I don’t like them. They are presented as a form of coaching. Door-to-door preaching is not the easiest thing in the world, you know. Try it yourself and let me know what you think. 

35 minutes ago, Anna said:

Are you kidding? 😀

The real JW forum is in...ahem.... the closed club

Where never is heard a discouraging word

and the skys are not cloudy all day.    

1 hour ago, 4Jah2me said:

Mr Harley side tracks by trying to make fun of others. 

He’s just getting started. See comment on the other thread:

“Come, come. This is not a gentlemans’ club. The only gentleman here is @JW Insider, who astounds me with his civility, even in the face of downright hostile comments. I confess that I sometimes wonder if I should try to emulate him more.

His civility does him no good, however. Malcontents take his civility and beat him over the head with it. But he is of the sort who believes that theocracy dies in darkness, and I think their response does not matter to him,

   58 minutes ago,  4Jah2me said: 

A case in point where by Mr Harley only answers by trying to make fun of someone. 

It is a little mean, I will concede the point. And I have no problem apologizing. Still, when you take the stage to level the most outlandish accusations, ill-informed except for from the playbook of other opponents, you cannot cry if someone pointedly takes exception to your shooting from the hip.

Furthermore, my place is enshrined here by none other than @The Librarian herself (that old hen). It was her idea—not mine—to put me on a thread entitled TrueTom vs the Apostates. I protested. I didn’t want the job. I don’t go out of my way to pick fights with these characters. My protest fell on deaf ears. So I tackled the job with such ferocity that the entire thread was thrown into the abyss and I had to wear a Scarlet Letter, same as Hester Pryine—mine for “abuse.” (hers for “adultery”)

Two years later the experience proved the germ of an ebook, “TrueTom vs the Apostates!”

https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/917311

41 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

A case in point where by Mr Harley only answers by trying to make fun of someone. 

Come, come. This is not a gentleman's’ club. The only gentleman here is JWI, who astounds me with his civility, even in the face of downright hostile comments. I confess that I sometimes wonder if I should try to emulate him more.

His civility does him no good, however. Malcontents take his civility and beat him over the head with it. But he is of the sort who believes that theocracy dies in darkness, and I think their response does not matter to him,

45 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

A case in point where by Mr Harley only answers by trying to make fun of someone. 

It is a little mean, I will concede the point. And I have no problem apologizing. Still, when you take the stage to level the most outlandish accusations, ill-informed except for from the playbook of other opponents, you cannot cry if someone pointedly takes exception to your shooting from the hip.

48 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

Quite strange that Mr Harley missed off the word WORKBOOK when he quoted me above. 

It frankly didn’t make any sense to me. But if it makes you happy, Mr 4Jah2Me: “WORKBOOK.”

7 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

Smiley faces as I'm trying not to be too serious about all this.

They should be embarrassed faces. Isn’t there an emoticon for that?

7 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

In my opinion it is a Man Made rule, not a direction from God. I would lump it into the 'traditions of men' category.   What do you think on that ?

Step into your own church and assume pastorship duties if you think there are not requirements going above and beyond that of members/

9 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

Um, a tactful way of saying 'I don't believe half of what the GB say but I'll stick with it anyway'   

What it says is that the requirement to walk in lock-step, as you must have said elsewhere, is a figment of your imagination. If you haven’t said it, it is only a matter of time, because you buddies say it ad nauseam.

11 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

There is no WE. There is only THEM ( at the top) and  congregants (at the bottom) .  And the congregants go out and preach exactly what they are told to preach 

This is too stupid to respond to. I just can’t do it.

2 minutes ago, Anna said:

I think the Pope views himself as trying to fulfill that role also. The question is, is he doing a good job.

Well, yes....but this is a JW forum and the consensus will be that one must meet the basic criteria—no trinity, no immortal soul, role of God’s kingdom, neutrality, preach the good news, God’s name, traditional morality, and so forth.

If one is going to sail outside those boundaries, keep sailing, and I’ll say it is Tim Cook.

2 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

in some debate between JW and Catholic, better result would be on JW side. But from whom JW member received such "knowledge"? From FDS aka GB who lives on WT Society account aka members donation money.

It’s true. If I am asked a question in service, like, “Who is God?” I will say, “Hold that thought while I check in with my masters.” I dial them on my cell phone.

I used to dial them on my smart phone, but they took it. They said I shouldn’t go thinking myself smart. Only they are.

1 hour ago, Anna said:

 So in that respect, we view ourselves as trying to fulfill that role".

“Trying to fulfill.”

That hardly sounds delusional to me. Nor does it seem haughty or pretentious. 

If it is not them, who else could it be? (No Facebook pages allowed) (It is not Dilbert, either)

6 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Who is he and what do we have in common ? 

You don’t want to know.

5 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Finnaly, i can give you one Up-Vote :)))

It’s about time! If you were more astute, I’d have 1000 from you by now.

9 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

What if God make change of His (or WT) perspective on this, and decide about them to stay on Earth and fulfill same task ? :)) 

Then we could expect John to write of it in 2 Revelation