TrueTomHarley

11 hours ago, Equivocation said:

prove the admin wrong and embarrass him or her in front of other users, the ban hammer will be thrown.

Doesn’t happen here. After all that I have said about the Librarian, that old hen, I am still here to talk about it.

11 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I get the feeling that the admin here is probably not even happy that most of the posts and activity are centered around a specific religion

Mr. Admin takes his seat at the 17th Annual Conference of Internet Magificents. “Seen the latest stats for users on the WorldNewsMedia forum?” he casually mentions to the Reddit founder. “Pretty, impressive, isn’t it?”

“Big deal, they’re all religious nuts,” the latter answers. Come back when you have people who don’t think the world is flat!”

27 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

 I think that many of us enjoyed the challenge of meeting that preacher when out in service who would challenge us and we'd stay for half an hour. (Guilty!)

It can be awkward running into one of these characters. Sometimes they start fights with us. Sometimes (alas) we start fights with them.

Recently I spoke with one fundamentalist type and it threatened to go that way. Finally learning, after all these years, I said: “Look, you think we’re doing it all wrong. We think you’re doing it all wrong. We’ll steal members from your church in a heartbeat if we can, and you’ll do the same to us. Let’s just agree on those things.

That out of the way, we were able to enjoy a fine conversation on the importance of faith and the challenge of maintaining it today, knowing that we could always come back and haggle out those things later.

With liberal clergy, I sometimes just ask them to describe what they do in the course of a day. I don’t assume, as I might have when I was younger, that the answer will be: “Nothing.”

Not too long ago I hopped out of the car to do a minister’s home. A sister of the old school wanted to accompany me, but I said: “No, you’ll get in a fight with him.” She felt bad, so did I, and I did apologize. Still, I know how it would have gone:

”Interesting. Thank you for that. Now let’s see what the Bible has to say.”

3 hours ago, Matthew9969 said:

If I was still in I would ask them to bring back the hoagies and pudding cups.

I did oversee the food line for a time. One of the prepackaged items was “a pasta salad.”

Way back then, without any inkling as to what I would be doing today, I used to refer to them as “apostasy salads.”

13 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Or perhaps he'd be a little more proactive, and listen on his police radio for his next opportunity, or perhaps even do a bit of

Or maybe he’d show up at the zoo in his rhinoceros suit and step on someone’s toe.

2 minutes ago, divergenceKO said:

Some of us now know who the real Admin and Asst Admin are, TTH, and JWinsider.

Shh. don’t tell anybody.

Besides, I don’t trust that JWI as far as I can spit. He is scheming to become top dog.

You would demand a scripture to prove that there were ones who took the lead back then? It is too stupid a request to countenance.

I do not have a scripture to specifically say that first-century Christians used the privy, either. In the absence of one, I am going to assume that they did not.

Prove I am wrong, lady. Where is the scripture?

22 minutes ago, Witness said:

Can you provide a scripture that verifies brothers "taking the lead in Jerusalem"? 

Is even THAT not allowed in your book? What a very strange world you occupy.

On 9/28/2019 at 11:51 PM, salomon said:

This does not prevent these religions - and our opponents - from playing the great moralizers and despising certain "sects

The founder of the BITE model that is used to label whoever thinks out of the mainstream as a “cult”  has just written a book entitled: “The Cult of Trump” about how that one employs aspects of mind control.

When you think half the country has fallen under the influence of a cult, it is evidence, in my view, that you have drunk too much of the Kool-Aid yourself.

It is also evidence that the entire BITE anti-cult model is no more than a leftest political philosophy that attempts to scientifically endorse a culture of victimhood and move it into protected status.

That’s not to say that everyone who doesn’t like Jehovah’s Witnesses is a leftest. But those who don’t like them on the basis that they are a “cult” usually are.

“Victimhood” overplayed is an odious thing. No one ever made a bad decision. When that appears to be the case, it is only because that one has been misled.

No one has ever changed goals in life simply in the course of human development. When that appears to be the case, it is only because that one has been misled.

And yet these same ones, who do no wrong themselves unless it can be blamed upon someone else, are the first to cry how others should be “held accountable” and must “take responsibility” for anything not according to their wish list of looking at things.

What a culture of crybabies anti-cultism spawns.

On 9/29/2019 at 12:00 AM, salomon said:

They will say for example: "You can not trust your leaders! Or: "Do not let them lead you to disaster! 

Exactly.

In the first century, Nero executed Christians en masse. What would Agent JackRyan, Witness, Srecko,  Mathew457845, and Shwiiiiiii said about that had they been around back then?

You know that they would be screaming at how incompetent and wicked were the brothers taking the lead in Jerusalem.

Witness would have quoted half the Hebrew Scriptures in an effort to show how it was their presumptuousness that was to blame.

15 hours ago, Anna said:

On 9/25/2019 at 11:31 AM, ComfortMyPeople said:

WATCHTOWER WITH PREAMBLE AND CONCLUSION
99% of the Watchtower overseers I have seen in my life waste their time in introductory paragraphs during meetings. Then you have to go fast in the key paragraphs. Why not place an introduction that is not read, and a conclusion that is not read? 

Read more  

I agree completely! I always go to sleep when they do that. I don't see the point.

In “Tom Irregardless and Me” I write that, when Tom conducts the Watchtower, he will milk that introductory paragraph, taking comment after comment about how bad things are in the last days, and then just when they are dying down, he himself will throw in that item about the rhinoceros at the zoo that stomped over that child, as though that, too, was a sign of the last days, and get everyone going again.

1 hour ago, Anna said:

On 9/25/2019 at 11:31 AM, ComfortMyPeople said:

REPORT ON THE QUALITY OF THE SPEAKERS

Haha, that would be funny. I don't think that will ever happen because it's too judgmental. But I understand your point!

“Brother, when I hear you speak I marvel at the wisdom of Jehovah’s organization in cutting public talks down from 45 minutes to 30.”

1 hour ago, Anna said:

Oh yes, the notorious beard issue!

All that I will say on this is that the last meeting was enough to end my study with Santa Claus. He had. been making such good progress. I had finally gotten him to stop disrupting meetings with a “HO HO HO!” whenever the speaker made even the lamest of jokes. He had stopped pronouncing the elders “bad” when they asked him and me to take his outbursts  to the back room. He had even said he was giving up the extreme sports stunt he pulls every late December, out of regard for appreciating the gift of life. It wasn’t the full beard the fellow had at the beginning that stumbled him. Nor was it the shaven-off beard that he had at baptism. It was the half-beard that he had at his study, thus indicating progress.

Sigh...and he was a good study. His wife always served the most delicious cookies.

I will weigh in on some of these other things, too, when I get a moment. Thought has gone into them.

2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

5) Footnote in WT magazine said: At the time, it was believed ... This is one more prove in lines of proves, how WT Society and people who run this Organization, inventing teachings and doctrines. 

What it proves is that when it is clear they have erred, interpreting scripture incorrectly, they admit it in print and move on—the very opposite of the line you and Witness are peddling that they hide their mistakes at all costs.

The only one who says that it is impermissible for humans to err is you. They have never taken that position.

2 hours ago, Anna said:

I looks a lot like somebody was doing somebody else a favor....in return for other favors perhaps?

I would certainly never say that it was impossible. I took the word of some what I thought were respectable sources that the laws were not aimed primarily at religion. But sometimes even respectable sources don’t know their knee from their elbow.

14 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Ah! Now I know where that "NI" came from in your Scrabble game. It was for "Needs Improvement"!

Grumble, grumble. Do you think I can get my Scrabble-cheating brother to take even the slightest interest in spiritual things? But when it serves his purpose, suddenly he becomes a Fred Franz.

I had forgotten what he had said about Jehovah’s Witnesses. But it fits well with this remark from a Russian scholar:

“Nikolai Gordienko, of the Herzen Russian State University in St. Petersburg, has stated ‘When the experts accuse Jehovah’s Witnesses for their teachings, they do not realize that they are actually making accusations against the Bible.’”

One young woman at the congregation meeting last night identified with the “missing drachma” parable of Jesus, saying: “When I put my hand in my back pocket and find some money there....Whoa! it is a big deal!” (“Betty Davis style” is how Bob Dylan said it.) I must admit that it inspired me to do the same, slipping a dollar into my back pocket, pulling it out and exclaiming: “Whoa! Look at this!”

It was this illustration at Luke 15 that got her going: “What woman who has ten drachma coins, if she loses one of the drachmas, does not light a lamp and sweep her house and search carefully until she finds it? And when she has found it, she calls her friends and neighbors together, saying, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found the drachma coin that I had lost.’”

There is a not-so-hidden rebuke in Jesus’ words summarizing a similar parable: “I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over 99 righteous ones who have no need of repentance.” Well, they did—need repentance that is. Otherwise they would have been out searching for the missing sheep themselves:

“What man among you with 100 sheep, on losing one of them, will not leave the 99 behind in the wilderness and go after the lost one until he finds it? And when he has found it, he puts it on his shoulders and rejoices. And when he gets home, he calls his friends and his neighbors together, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep that was lost.’”

The context was that of the Pharisees sneering at the common people that they should have been tending to, even employing the pejorative term “ahhaarets”—“people of the dirt.” Straying a little off-topic, but still fair game, the conductor of that Bible-study portion explored how you wouldn’t want to come across that way in your own ministry:

Bible principles are good and with them people mess up their lives much less than they would otherwise. Sometimes it works at the other end, and they succeed much more than they would otherwise. It depends upon one’s starting point. At any rate, come across someone in the ministry with a host of problems , and realize it could well be you in the absence of Bible principles—I mean, it is no basis for ever feeling superior, as those Pharisees did without ever mastering the godly ways.

Again, not part of this particular study, but certainly in the same vein, was Jesus’ rebuke to those same religious leaders on another occasion: “But when the scribes of the Pharisees saw that he was eating with the sinners and tax collectors, they began saying to his disciples: “Does he eat with tax collectors* and sinners?”  On hearing this, Jesus said to them: “Those who are strong do not need a physician, but those who are ill do. I came to call, not righteous people, but sinners.” 

Sometimes those who dislike Jehovah’s Witnesses trying to paint it they they have a high proportion of those mentally ill. I have no idea whether this is true or not, for mental illness defines the times that we live in, but I don’t even kick back at this anymore. Instead, I say that, if true, it is exactly what one would expect. I quote Jesus’ words that he came to call, not on those who do not need a physician, but on those who do. “Spiritually sick” is what he is talking about, but if spiritually sick, then maybe emotionally or mentally sick as well—sickness tends to overflow its category. The people you have to wonder about, in my view, are not those who experience emotional difficulties in the face of the present world, but those who do not—those who sail past atrocities on every side and remain undisturbed.

The two Bible chapters up for review in that mid-week meeting were Hebrews 12 and 13. Discipline was a theme, in view of 12:7.. “You need to endure as part of your discipline,” the verse says. There was a video of a circuit overseer taking counsel from his wife as discipline. He was upset over someone he thought had treated him badly, and his wife said: “Well, that’s because he is a yo-yo. But so are you. Get over it.” [precise words mine, not hers] He told of how he had received a letter from the branch telling how he had botched something or other, and he counted that, too, as discipline. Sometimes we get counseled over various things.

Still, the overall sense of Hebrews 12:7 is that even if no one ever says a word to you about anything, simply to pursue the Christian course in a world that either wants to change that course or have nothing to do with it is a “discipline.” The lives of Jehovah’s Witnesses might be described as ones of delayed gratification; they go light or even abstain from certain aspects of life that they would otherwise engage in for the sake of laying hold to a greater prize. That takes self-discipline. Delayed gratification is usually seen as a responsible thing, even by Witness opposers, but not in this case.

That just pursuing the Christian course in the face of an indifferent or even hostile world is in itself a form of discipline is plain from surrounding verses, as well as the overall context of the Book of Hebrews itself. Those members of the Jerusalem congregation were tiring of holding the line. They “ought to be teachers in view of the time but they again need someone to teach [them] from the beginning the elementary things.” (5:12) Hopefully, they would be encouraged by the “great cloud of witnesses” surrounding them—not to mention Christ’s own example, so as to “not get tired and give up.” (12:1-3)

“In your struggle against that sin, you have never yet resisted to the point of having your blood shed.  And you have entirely forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons: “My son, do not belittle the discipline from Jehovah, nor give up when you are corrected by him;  for those whom Jehovah loves he disciplines, in fact, he scourges everyone whom he receives as a son.” You need to endure as part of your discipline. God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father?  But if you have not all shared in receiving this discipline, you are really illegitimate children, and not sons. Furthermore, our human fathers used to discipline us, and we gave them respect. Should we not more readily submit ourselves to the Father of our spiritual life and live?  For they disciplined us for a short time according to what seemed good to them, but he does so for our benefit so that we may partake of his holiness.  True, no discipline seems for the present to be joyous, but it is painful; yet afterward, it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. Therefore, strengthen the hands that hang down and the feeble knees.” (12:4-12)

Don’t be a lout and don’t miss the point of God’s undeserved kindness [“grace,” many transactions say, but the New World Translation says “undeserved kindness,” since the former term just conveys to the modern man that God is not clumsy and doesn’t topple over things]: “Carefully watch that no one fails to obtain the undeserved kindness of God, so that no poisonous root springs up to cause trouble and many are defiled by it; and watch that among you there is no one who is sexually immoral nor anyone who does not appreciate sacred things, like Eʹsau, who gave up his rights as firstborn in exchange for one meal. (12:15-16)

He is shaking the very heaven and the earth. He is not shaking the congregation directly, but it is sure to feel the aftershocks—hence the heightened need for the discipline of endurance: “Now the expression “yet once more” indicates the removal of the things that are shaken, things that have been made, in order that the things not shaken may remain.  Therefore, seeing that we are to receive a Kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us continue to receive undeserved kindness, through which we may acceptably offer God sacred service with godly fear and awe.  (12:27-28)

(thoughts gleaned from the midweek meeting of September 23-29, 2019)

*Tax collectors were the lowest of the low in popular esteem back then because they were not unknown to shake people down for, not just the required tax, but whatever they could get in addition.

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

But I do see that many good and active Witnesses have "Theocratic Ministry School" listed as their "school/college/education" in their Facebook profiles. Perhaps they should all be warned?

Give them permanent “W”s

37 minutes ago, Anna said:

This got me to wondering whether her "attack" on religion (besides Orthodox) was actually personal, and whether her attack on evangelism specifically, was even more personal

No. Unless she is very very subtle. The main thrust of the laws do not even specifically target religion, though she may be no friend of it. Others have point it that way.

As to our reputation in the general world, I would put it: “When perusing religion, look for the people who are individually praised but collectively despised.”

17 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

That's a 2-seater AMX; Javelins were almost the same (with some hood and grill differences) but were 4-seaters (in 1970). I was always afraid that under such a large hood, I'd open it and a Gremlin would pop out.

AMC didn’t have a lot of money. They recycled a lot, often detrimentally but in this case for the better. Some of the best looking cars around were AMC but also some of the most hideous 

Nobody but nobody has “apostates” like Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is almost as though I am proud of them. Every NT writer wrote about opposition and apostasy. If it happened then, it should happen now. What if there was no opposition today? Wouldn’t you have to wonder why?

Since Witnesses do not seek to evade taxes, they pay into social & police services to a greater proportion than most groups. Since they put into practice Bible principles that improve lives, they draw upon those services to a much lesser degree. They are honest. They don’t resort to violence, either, in contrast to the majority who will when the cause is deemed right. 

It should be taken as more evidence that what Witnesses have is the truth. It would not be so determinedly opposed were that not the case. The opposition to them is hugely disproportional to their “offenses.”

35 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

I think that the new president of Ukraine wants a ride on Trump's plane and is willing to buy Javelins 

Well, one can hardly blame him for that.

Forgive me. My family made me drive Ramblers (AMC) growing up—the ultimate in child abuse. I developed an unreasonable underdog defense mentality about them.

10 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Download it and pass it on.

I even fashioned this into a post, old boy. Thanks for the inspiration:

https://www.tomsheepandgoats.com/2019/09/you-read-it-and-decide-if-it-was-a-quid-pro-quo-conversation-worthy-of-bringing-down-a-us-president.html

(any comments go here, not on the post itself. I won’’t allow them there. We must not tic off the Librarian. (that old hen)

9 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

YOU read it and decide if it was a "quid pro quo" conversation, worthy of bringing down a U.S. President.

Some do. Some don’t.

I think the key point to take away from this is is, not only can people not agree on what to do in light of the facts, but they cannot even agree on what the facts are.

Pew Research puts it this way:

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/08/23/republicans-and-democrats-agree-they-cant-agree-on-basic-facts/

The Bible puts it this way:

But know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here.  For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal,  having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness,  betrayers, headstrong, puffed up with pride, lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God,  having an appearance of godliness but proving false to its power. (2 Timothy 3:1-5)

28 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

It mustn't be if you change the angle of view :)) But that is not on me to help you. All i can do is to make you think with the words ... even silly one. 

“The only reason to oppose such building and organization is to break up, ideally even eliminate, the coordinated preaching work that it facilitates. It is no more complicated than that. Say it plainly, and you will win some respect for frankness. But to mischaracterize operational expense as “abuse” is just too devious.”

1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

but it was a tragic thing, as they did it for the frequent flier miles.

You know, that’s a good one. It really is.