TrueTomHarley

20 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Dear TTH, JW member who left pamphlet on grave, 

Look, I am trying to put lipstick on a pig, here. I think you have to be nuts to do something like this. Having said this, there are plenty of nuts in the world, and we have our share.

Maybe even more than our share. Jesus said he did not come to call upon those who do not need a physician, but on those who do. ‘Spiritually sick’ is how it is usually spun, but if people are sick in one way they are often off-base in others. I feel no discomfort in speculating this. The people who have to shake your head at in wonder are the ones who can navigate the atrocities of today’s world without displaying some sort of disturbance.

As a personal matter, I agree with almost everything you said about how this sort of ‘witnessing’ comes across. The only substantial thing I disagree with is 

20 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

. JW member was just routinely made his/her Volunteer PUBLIC SERVICE aka PUBLISHING for Companies (WTJWORG and Congregation)

The only reason that you split people up in this way is so you can further the ridiculous meme of JW member being exploited by WTJWORG company. It is the victimization culture on steroids, and nobody plays the victim card more than anti-cultists. The JW member IS the WTJWORG company.

Other than that, yes, it is a terrible way to “give a witness,” and mostly for the reasons you say. It leaves a favorable impression on few, an unfavorable impression on many more, and a violently unfavorably impression on some others. 

Still, as the Bethel brother (and town) said, it represents someone’s individual choice. I have never seen such a suggestion in print. Nor have I ever heard of anyone doing it. Maybe it is one of those persons of whom it was said that when new they ought to be locked up for six months until they learn some discretion.

Or maybe they are not new and the sentence should be extended.

1 hour ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

However, show me, one good Brother, here

Ahem

33 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I have found most three day Assemblies can be covered in a two page email

This is so only if you are spiritually impervious and the bulk of what is offered bounces off you like skipping stones on a stagnant pond.

(I am being very mean to JTR lately. I want to apologize to him for a previous mean reply and I am just about fixing myself up to do it when he posts some crass &.attacking remark that recalls to my mind why I insulted him in the first place>)

6 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

as if looking for loose change ... possibly even a nickle ... when I think about Kingdom Hall restrooms, 

In the late 70s, my Bible student spotted instantly what nobody else had ever noticed.

The dressed-up gentleman pictured on the sign for the men’s room was smoking a pipe.

21 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

We don't know his motive, but the request is out of the ordinary and a bit controlling.

8 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

I've also found that some people just can't allow themselves to admit, when someone they normally don't agree with, is correct. 

It does come across as sort of odd, I agree.

1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

So no I'm not going to bend MY knee to these men who want to control my personal life, but rather "leave it in Jehovah's hands"

Yes, yes. All very eloquent. But where are you going on your vacation?

Look, there is only so much seriousness I can muster for this. I don’t even know that it is genuine. If it is, it may be just a personal quirk, someone one-upping the request to know where people are in the event of an emergency. I have never been asked such a thing, nor have I ever heard of it from anyone.

He probably is just making up schedules and wants to know when not to put people on them. 

Turn away, please @The Librarian. (You old hen)

Dear Brother Overseer

I ain’t goin nowhere. I am too busy blaming others for something that happened 50 years ago. I barely have a pot to piss in. If only I had gone to college. If only, if only, if only. Then my life would be paradise. 

Everyone not going to college is a loser in life. Everyone going is a winner. Nobody that goes to college has problems. Whatever problems non-college people have is because they didn’t go to college.

Make a bum decision as a teen and you are locked in for life. There is no opportunity to change course. Liars say that it can be done, but that it what you expect liars to say. I will never forgive them for giving me bad advise. 

Never 

never 

never

never

never

never

never

never

never

never

never 

never 

never

never

never

never

never

never

never

never

never 

Do you hear me?! NEVER!!!!!!!!!!!

Cordially, Brother _______________

On 4/13/2019 at 10:18 AM, Jack Ryan said:

“Canada” - John

“Florida” - Sam

“Boise, Idaho - I have family there I visit”. - Sam

“Spain. The rain in Spain stays mainly on the plain. Thanks for your concern” - George

“The Adirondacks. We like to camp with the family. - Howie

”It’s none of your “G*****M” business where I am going on my vacation! What an invasion of privacy! Does your desire for control know know bounds?” - Jack

1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

I've also found that some people just can't allow themselves to admit, when someone they normally don't agree with, is correct. 

For whatever it’s worth, I don’t think I have ever received such a request, but I would not lose my cookies if I did. I have been asked where I might go in the event of an emergency. Unfortunately, I am not sure just who would put up with me. Maybe the ol pork chop.

“Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among YOU and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over YOUR souls as those who will render an account; that they may do this with joy and not with sighing, for this would be damaging to YOU.” - Hebrews 13:17

Whole lotta sighin over there in Jack’s congregation.

23 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I do not even know who Alexandra is,

Well, I do. I tracked her down and addressed her post, both on her forum and mine.

https://www.tomsheepandgoats.com/2019/05/misrepresenting-jw-child-abuse-policy.html

40 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

or an over-controlling busybody sticking their nose into business that doesn't pertain to them. 

It is only because of the quick wording that the message might be taken that way. He scribbled it hastily to a handful of close people that he thought he knew well, people who would not take offense at his quirky way of phrasing matters. 

He had no idea that Jack was among them and was going to go squealing with it like a two-year old to the WorldWideMedia forum so that 1984-obsessed people could hoo-haw over it.

“How can the shepherd say to the Master that he doesn’t know where the sheep are?” one elder put it.

Is it overzealous and crass? Of course. You never know the emotional state of grieving persons. But overzealous and crass people are to be found everywhere and we all must deal with them

Still, nobody seems overly concerned about it other than Jack and his co-irreligionist.

10 hours ago, Jack Ryan said:

A Jehovah's Witnesses spokesman said the choice to leave the flyers at the cemetery was 'an individual matter' and would have been carried out by someone from 'one of the local churches there'.

 

10 hours ago, Jack Ryan said:

A Penrith City Council spokesman said the flyers were an 'isolated incident

My guess is that 8 out of 10 people would roll their eyes at this and dismiss it as well-meaning but the work of somewhat kooky people. 1 out 10 would actually appreciate it, for it is not as though the question is irrelevant. For the sake of the remaining 1 out of 10, deeply grieving who will take it wrong—perhaps atheists, which anyone has the right to be—one ought not do it—blanketing the cemetery.

However, I have obtained a rare copy of the Ryan Bible Translation that addresses some of Jack’s concerns.

”Jesus said: “Roll away that stone.” Mary was offended that he should have the nerve to prey on her when she was emotionally vulnerable...

10 hours ago, Jack Ryan said:

But even then, if they left a flyer saying ''We're sorry for your loss'' would it make the situation any better? It's still preying on emotionally vulnerable people.' 

With that, they rolled it away. Jesus peered inside, shrugged, and said to Mary: “Sorry about your loss.”

It is all very well for you to renounce God, Jack, That doesn’t mean that the whole wide world must do it also. It is as though he would chastise Ponce de Leon for searching for the fountain of youth. The idiot. Why didn’t he search for the fountain of death instead?

56 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

but you may have a point.  In my younger years I repeatedly jumped out of perfectly functional airplanes.

Ah. There lies the problem. Had you used a parachute you would not have landed on your head.

(Okay, TrueTom, don’t be mean. You must admit that the ol pork chop has given a good answer.)

9 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Coherence, and being right or wrong, are two ENTIRELY different things.

Are you sure that it is not you and sanity that are two ENTIRELY different things?

How coherent can it be? It is entirely based on an article that is factually wrong.

If he truly fancies himself a shepherd of the sheep, that is exactly what a shepherd would do.

23 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I do not even know who Alexandra is, and was not talking about her, or about anything she may have said.

That sounds like an excellent reason for you to upvote her thread the minute after it is posted.

Look, just say this about all the other threads you weigh in on and we will all be happy. 

“I don’t know who this person is. I am not speaking about anything that she has brought up, and I am only here to insert some crass cartoons and insult people.” There. What is so hard about that?

1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

No... my statement was EXACTLY correct.

Your statement regarding the overall premise of this thread is EXACTLY incorrect.

Alexandra’s entire complaint is based upon something that is factually incorrect—and you have hailed it as though it were the commandments brought down from Sinai. Whether or not the policy addresses every conceivable scenario or whether it is always adhered to is another matter entirely. She has stated that there is none

She states that there is no policy to warn parents should a person guilty of CSA be retained in the congregation. There is. And it would be hard to put it in a more obvious place—the online and downloadable. WT policy on child sexual abuse.

Moreover, had she come by the book honestly, rather than pilfering it off the internet from Jack or one of his chums, she would have been there to hear the “Brothers, make sure you consult the online CSA policy, for the special circumstance of when the wrong repented over involves child abuse.”

There are enough legitimate things to be concerned about without you fanning the flames of charges that are undeniably bogus. By doing so, you contribute to the hysteria of anticultism that less freedom-loving nations use as a pretext for physically assaulting upright people and putting a stop to that dissemination of Bible truths that you have said is important.

1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

In fact. Thomas Jefferson, the author of the first statement, was a slave owner.

It's always been about money.

You are sort of right and sort of wrong. TJ did own slaves. He also wrote at length that slavery destroys both blacks and whites. This is substantially different from men like John C Calhoun, who wrote that it is an arrangement that benefits both groups.

1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Policy is one thing ..... reality is quite another."

Missing the entire point is another, also.

Of course any policy can not be implemented. But that is not Alexandra’s statement. Her statement is that there is no policy to specifically warn parents in the event of child sexual abuse. 

Had she just read the easily available online JW policy, she would have known that the whole thrust of her point is bogus.

All one need to do blow this silly thing out of the water is to read the relevant portion of the JW downloadable child abuse policy.

11. If it is determined that one guilty of child sexual abuse is repentant and will remain in the congregation, restrictions are imposed on the individual’s congregation activities. The individual will be specifically admonished by the elders not to be alone in the company of children, not to cultivate friendships with children, or display any affection for children. In addition, elders will inform parents of minors within the congregation of the need to monitor their children’s interaction with the individ- ual. {Bolded mine]

https://download-a.akamaihd.net/files/media_publication/4a/cpt_E.pdf

In the special case of child sexual abuse, these are the steps that go above and beyond handling other forms of wrongdoing.

Why doesn’t Alexandra James refer to this? Why doesn’t John know it? No one has been more prolific at leveling charges as he, and he swallows every word of her accusations. Why does Srecko give it a Gold Star Thank You? All he and John have to do is to read the JW published policy to see that she is wrong.

One would think the organization’s published child abuse policy would be the very first thing consulted. Instead, they never read it at all, or else they do and immediately seek to bury it.

Will Mr. Rook give himself a downvote for overlooking this most obvious proof that the complaint he slobbers all over is bogus?

It is clear that Ms James spends too much time pouring over confidential material that she has pilfered and insufficient time reading what is right under her nose.

58 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

 

Unless you are suggesting this 

It was a printers’ error. I meant it to say “TrueTom vs the Misunderstood Guys”

Having used the A-word a few times prominently, the book mostly discards it in favor of the verses I quoted above,

One place that I do not is an early chapter with the title Who Are the Apostates?

https://www.tomsheepandgoats.com/2019/01/who-are-the-apostates.html

3 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Therefore a lion from the forest will slay them. 

You may not have noticed, but I seldom even call them apostates, especially when they are young. Can a twenty-something really be an apostate?  They have not yet earned the word. Sometimes I call them “apostates-in-training.” Nor do I say that they are necessarily wrong in all they say. As one elder once said to me: “Some of these brothers are so narrow-minded that you could put out their eyes with a shrimp fork.” If you happened to get caught in the cross-fire of such persons, you  might well go online and talk about “the absurdities of [your] experiences,” as the philly.com reporter put it. One can always respond, as I do, that if they carry on about “the absurdities of their experiences,” maybe it is that they remained too shallow to ever experience the real thing. Still, it is a test to get caught up in some of the oddball things that have happened.

Increasingly, I like instead to just think of some as do certain scriptures: “Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry you off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ.” (Colossians 2:8)

And

“For there are many, I used to mention them often but now I mention them also with weeping, who are walking as the enemies of the torture stake of the Christ,  and their finish is destruction, and their god is their belly, and their glory consists in their shame, and they have their minds upon things on the earth.” (Philippians 3:19)

or say what happened to them is what happened to good ol Demas: “Demas has forsaken me because he loved the present system of things.” (2 Timothy 4:10)

33 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

There is only one way to treat apostates TOM, it’s not through sympathy.

Empathy - and just when called for. 

Get a load of the sympathy I show for that fathead Jack over on the other thread.

4 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Since you are a fan of "revisionist history", which you have just done, it's a good thing I quoted you in my post, so your latest post makes sense.

Otherwise, there is no rational continuity, and historical context is obscured.

For context reference:

Oh, stuff it. Since I plainly reveal what I have just done, anyone with interest can easily see what has transpired. B. W. Is writing scholarly material of lasting significance. That is not so of most that goes down here.

What! You would put your irreverent cartoons on the level of ‘War and Peace’?

2 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Maybe TrueTom can write a comedic book.

There is no better way to make the medicine go down that comedy. After all, if you bury the most brilliant counsel in the more repellent package, how many are going to ponder it?

It works for genuine ‘apostasy,’ too. The best way to dispose of much of it is with comedy. It must be done sparingly and without losing empathy, but comedy is often the way to go.