TrueTomHarley

5 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

You are barking mad Tom. 

 

NOW you’ve got it.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

TTH is at it again.Bashing ex JW's. He cannot give anyone a minute's peace. Go and have a coffee Tom, calm down my friend. 

I start off the day with one or two. It doesn’t help.

I should point out that the exJWs I ‘bash’ (how unkind a word) are the ones that go atheist. Not all do, but they interest me more. They join forces with ‘apostates’ of all new religious movements to fight common cause against them all.

The book barely mentions the non-atheist variety, perhaps because they, too, will be eventual targets of the anti-cultists.

1 hour ago, FelixCA said:

You keep saying it doesn’t matter. 

Top Cat O’Malihan said that I didn’t do dates. That is only partly true. I don’t do them, true, but it is only because I have already pronounced the final word:

A post of years ago:

............

From our readers:

Dear Tom Sheepandgoats:

How can I figure when the world will end?

Sincere Person

Dear Sincere Person:

The only thing you're sincere about is saving your skin! Nevertheless, here's how you do it.

You start with the well-known verse in Mathew:

Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.     Matt 24:36

Got it? Nobody knows the day and the hour. While, at first glance, that might seem unhelpful for your calculation, in reality it is the key to success! The method is straightforward. Since no one knows the day and the hour, that means if anyone claims a certain date for the end of the world, that's not it. To visualize how the method works, start with a calendar. 

Now, let's consider an example. May 21st. Say someone declares this day to be the end of the world. Since he knows it to be true, that's not it. On your calendar, you cross out May 21. Cross it out, not in pencil, but with a permanent marker. That way, no atheist can later erase it, trying to confuse you or your pets.

Repeat the process. Whenever you come upon a day someone just knows is the day and the hour, cross out that day. With a bit of research, you ought to eventually have a calendar looking like this.

There! That's all there is to it. You'll cross out all days except one. That's the day! Be ready.

I can hear the cynics, already. “Hold on a minute, Sheepandgoats!  You can't tell me that every day of the calendar is taken. There may be a lot of nutcakes, but surely not so many as to fill up every day on the calendar!” 

On the surface, it seems a valid objection, but in reality, it just reveals laziness on your part. I admit, if you just count nutcakes predicting the day and hour, you'll fall short. You must count more than just the nutcakes. You must also count the screwballs, the cranks, the fruitcakes, the starry-eyed lunatics, the wolflike false prophets, the round-the-bend idiots, the maniacal crackpots, the self-aggrandizing demented, the certifiable crazies, the raving beserk, the unhinged wackos, and the moonstruck schizos. It's a little work, I admit, but it's not rocket science. If you count all these characters, you easily eliminate the wrong days, leaving only the truth to assert itself!

Now, since I do nothing but think about God all day long, I've worked through all this, and I know the date. But, if I really knew the date, that wouldn't be the date, would it? So I don't know. I've only been able to narrow it down to three possibilities. There are only three days throughout time that no one else has claimed. Thus we can see the breathtaking splendor of the heavenly plan. Three things are proven:

1. God is a trinity.
2. He works in mysterious ways.
3. Matt 24:36 holds. You can't tell the day and the hour; your best shot is a 33% chance.

Now, should we give Mr Camping some credit? It's not easy to do. I agonize over it. His formula, seven 1000-year days after the flood, seems awfully simplistic. He's throwing everyone in a tizzy over that? Haven't I said before I don't do floods? If I met him, I'm not at all sure I would like him. Besides, he buys into all the typical hash of trinity and hellfire, doesn't he? Don't get me started on this rapture stuff. And what's to say about those folk who buy into his prophesies? Why weren't they wearing ties as they announced the end? So, I suppose, not being on board, I run the risk of going to hell. Maybe if I say kind words, I will go to a softer version of hell...some place with merely an abominable climate, like here in Rochester, which I am used to. At any rate, it seems worth the effort. So....

Harold Camping, too, was aware of “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.” He didn't just blow it off as if it never existed. He worked around it in a very clever way. He said that verse related only to that specific period of time in which it was written, not now! Now all the Trinitarians laugh at such a silly explanation, yet they blunder as greatly regarding the second part of the verse: "...no man knows the day and hour, nor does the Son, but the Father does!" Still, they would have me believe that the Son and the Father are the same!

Look, Camping stuck his neck out and looked ridiculous, he messed up a lot of people, but at least he is in the spirit ofJesus admonition to “keep on the watch.” I'll give him credit for that, if no more. I mean, I've heard atheists and skeptics carry on about how can people be so credulous to buy into end-time obsessions. I'll tell you how. You need look no further than Newsweek, which lists calamities on the front cover of it's “Apocalyse Now” edition, before tearing their hair out with “What the #@%!" is Next?! So at least Camping errs in furthering a Bible theme, that there will be an end of this system of things. I mean, if the ridicule of him comes from those steamed over his goofball formula, or his presumption of nailing the day and hour, well and good. But if it comes from those mocking the very notion that one day God will intervene in world affairs so that the earth does not end up totally ruined.....well....I hate to pick sides. I'm not sure which is the worse.

Years ago I called on some science person who had read the book Life – How Did it Get Here; by Evolution or by Creation. In the course of discussion, he asked what difference did it make. Who cared? Either way, evolution or creation, we're here. I answered that if God was responsible for bringing about earth and the life on it, then he just might have some purpose for it, and might not stand idly by while human mismanagement destroyed it. But if evolution was responsible for all, then if there was any hope for earth's future, it lay with humans. And they weren't doing so well, then or now. The man's wife, who up to that time had had little to say, remarked 'that's a good point.' 

Well......alright already Sheepandgoats. You say there's three possibilities? Spill. What are they? Not so fast! It'll cost ya. Look, Camping and everyone else draws a salary for what they do. What should I and Jehovah's Witnesses be the only ones not to cash in? Contact me and we'll talk. Do you want to be ready for the big day or don't you?

************************

6 minutes ago, FelixCA said:

It appears this person is saying the Watchtower somehow believes the 6 creative days is the same as the 1000 years, is like a day to God in 2 Peter 3:8. Now I can understand someone like TTH would agree with such misguided logic, 

No you can’t.

TTH does not agree with it. He has picked up on the aeons and epochs of that recent Watchtower that JWI may have misattributed to someone else. At any rate, I refered to it, too, and I take both words to mean long periods of indeterminate length, the first encompassing the second, and the ‘beginning’ of Genesis 1:1 being as long as anyone wants it to be.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Imagine telling those children  "When people of the overall world go nuts, you’d better call in the SWAT team "

In the very next line, I stated that it is a great exaggeration.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

What utter rubbish. A MASSIVE GENERALISATION. Which is totally untrue.

Yeah. I said that. 

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

TTH says " He is not lovable " Oh but wait. Rafter / straw.  Tom you can't say he is not lovable before you 'remove' all your own faults.

Look, John, this is not hard. If it is my eye, it is a straw. If it is anyone else’s it is a rafter.

What part of that statement do you have trouble with?

 I got a ‘G’ on the talk. What more do you want?

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

And in your opinion that makes it Ok for the JW Org to teach lies does it ? 

On the contrary. It means that if anyone mentions Isaac Newton in my presence, I make them wash their mouth out with soap.

10 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

But my point was that Jehovah's Witnesses were given that information to teach others when they were taking a Bible study. And that information was lies. So Jehovah's Witnesses were teaching lies to their students. 

No more than Isaac Newton taught lies.

Forgive me for saying so, John, but I think you have a basic disconnect with the way that God operates towards humans. Continually we read of Bible characters who propagate things that later turn out to be wrong.

Talk (5 minutes or less) Week of Feb 4-10, 2018: 'Maintain a Realistic View of Your Limitations and Those of Others.'

‘When Jehovah’s Witnesses go nuts, they become quirky eccentrics, who nevertheless wouldn’t harm a fly.

When people of the overall world go nuts, you’d better call in the SWAT team.

(It is an introduction that plays to the audience. Certainly, nuts of the general world do not all require the SWAT team, but there are enough instances of such that the introduction works.)

Of course, ‘nuts’ might be viewed as a pejorative. Instead one might say ‘damaged goods’ or ‘pieces of work.’

(Here the speaker is on shaky ground. Is he calling members of the congregation, or even the entire congregation, ‘nuts,’ while excluding himself? Best defuse that one.)

It is like when many were away for a foreign-language assembly, and many more in seldom-worked territory. Just moments before the meeting was to begin, turnout was notably thin. I leaned over to Brother Oxgoad and said: “Do the friends think that you are giving the talk today?” He took a moment to process it, and shot back: “You’re a piece of work!” What was I going to say—that I wasn’t? In one way or another, we are all pieces of work.

(At that point it was time to go to the suggested verse.)

Romans 3:23 discusses the reality: “All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” The word translated sin comes from a root that means “to miss the mark.”

(I played with a bow & arrow for a bit.) At first, we didn’t even hit the target, and once in a while, we still miss it altogether. Usually, though, we do hit the target and even come closer and closer to the bullseye, but outright hitting it doesn’t happen often.

Another way of saying that we ‘miss the mark’ is to concede that we all have rough edges. Rough edges aren’t a huge deal when each one keeps his distance, but in a close setting, like a family--or a congregation, they become more of an issue.

(It was time to refer to a video that most remembered as to how to deal with rough edges. Since I have written of it already in ‘Dear Mr. Putin – Jehovah’s Witnesses Write Russia,’ I will here do a copy and paste:)

“The video shown was entitled Remove the Rafter. It featured a disgruntled member who thought most of his congregation a bunch of sheltered oddities. Even if they were, he came to realize in the end that the only one he could change was himself. As the Bible verse he was considering, in order to give his assigned student talk, faded onscreen, two words remained a split second longer than the others: ‘rafter' and ‘straw.’ This happened three times, and on the third, the word ‘hypocrite’ also remained. It is Jesus’ words he considered: “Why do you notice the straw in your brother’s eye, but do not perceive the rafter in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove that straw from your eye,’ while the rafter is in your eye? You hypocrite, remove the rafter from your eye first; then you will see clearly to remove the straw from your brother’s eye.’ As though to drive the point home, in the background, a workman carrying a rafter in the video briefly stood in front of a stopping bus advertising eye exams, so that a rafter actually did protrude from a eye for but a moment.

“At first glance, it is a slick move from the Watchtower video directors. But it is meant to illustrate a slick move upon the heart. The reason those two words remained, and then three, is that his heart was yet soft enough for them to register—having benefited from previous divine education. A hardened person would not have responded that way. The brother allowed the scripture to mold him. This is how God trains in the congregation, but it would all have been lost upon one who’s heart was molded primarily by this world’s education. Imagine how differently history might read if this verse was a staple of education, and not just a dreamy footnote. With Jehovah’s Witnesses, it is a staple.”

The talk concluded with words not too unlike the above two lines. Days later someone referred to ‘Brother Sandpaper.’ It was from one of those old syrupy memes that some just love, (I don’t) probably the one about how all the congregation members are like tools in God’s drawer that he uses to accomplish his purpose. (Even as I write this, it annoys me.) What is Brother Sandpaper’s function? To sand down our rough edges, which he accomplishes by being abrasive.

The thing irritates because it seems to suggest that Brother Sandpaper will always be Brother Sandpaper. And it seems to imply that he is yet lovable. He is not lovable, though he has some redeeming features, but that is not the same. His brusque and curt manner has stumbled many, and if that verse about tying a millstone around the neck of someone who behaves that way means anything, the sooner he gets his act together, the better.

When you give an illustration, it has to reasonably fit in all aspects. Like the book I am reading right now, The Fort, by Bernard Cornwall. The British force has encamped on the shores of late-1700s Massachusetts so as to curb the revolutionaries. The captain muses whether they will soon come to mount a challenge. “Aye, the bastards will come, all right,” the first officer assures him. “Mark my words, they’ll come, like flies to dung!” and the captain wonders at the appropriateness of likening His Majesty’s Naval Forces to dung.

On 2/7/2019 at 12:54 PM, JOHN BUTLER said:

And you need an OUTLINE to give a talk at a funeral ?  ...But they want you to stick to an outline to give a funeral talk and they much prefer you to be an Elder or M/S ? 

You are confusing JWs with those churches in which everyone gets up and gives his ‘testimony.’

Were it at a funeral home, I could do anything I wanted, without regard for being elder or MS. But it is not a free-for-all at the Kingdom Hall, so my giving the talk there was not a given. 

As it turned out, it was okayed, doubtless because people there know me well & I was a very close friend of the deceased.

A ban of a Bible translation could happen. A ban of the Bible itself is most unlikely, because too many would oppose it, even literary non-religious people. Having said that, we are in uncharted waters, with many things that we thought would never see the light of day becoming reality. 

exJW’s who oppose sometimes forget that their fight is not merely against their former faith, but against the Bible itself.

The best recourse for the situation you propose is to read it regularly now so that you will retain, even memorize large portions of it. Have a stash somewhere, but in the event of a serious ban, you would not be able to easily or routinely consult it.

wrote the book on apostates.

Literally.

’TrueTom vs the Apostates”

Everything there is to be known about them I know. They come in many shapes, sizes, permutations, colors, and genres. Some of them may even be misnamed. Some are too young to be apostates, though they must be treated pretty much the same. Call some of them apostates-in-training. They are more like the inexperienced one snatched away by some wave of the trickery of men. (Ephesians 4:14)

Is JWI one them? It is probably good discipline for him to keep hearing it from every Tom, Dick, and Harry Witness that passes through here, for he undeniably is ‘out there,’ but I am not ready to throw him under the bus just yet, if only for fear that he may grab me by the ankle and pull me in, too.

Are his views ‘apostate,’ even if they can also be found ‘on apostate sites?’ There are many of such views that have eventually become adopted by the Witness organization. Were they apostate right up until the moment they were adopted and then revealed truth afterwards? It makes no sense.

There is some verse somewhere about not running ahead. I cannot quite put my finger on it, but it may be in John’s writing. Help me out, someone. Not you, Butler. That’s not good, to run ahead, but it mostly finds expression in those who are promoting a sect. Is he? It’s arguable, perhaps, but imo he is not. 

The prime component of what makes an apostate to me is a lack of submission to theocratic authority, and he goes out of his way to make clear that he has no problem with that. If you can’t even talk about something that (history has shown) might eventually be adopted, then it really IS true that eight men are the only ones authorized to think. Neither they nor anyone else would want that to be the case, I think.

When push comes to shove, he is submissive to appointed authority. Let that be enough on a bayou backwater thread as this. If he set up a booth at the Kingdom Hall: “JWI’s Thoughts,” that would be one thing, but he doesn’t (you don’t, JWI, right?)

 Honestly. If he was an apostate I would know it because I wrote the book on apostates and he is not in it. (Yet. It is an ebook, after all, which has already been updated and no doubt will be updated again) Remember, ALL of us are apostate if you stretch the word too far, for Bethel clearly prefers we abstain from sites of off the grid spiritualality and yet here we are.

 

JWI deals with egghead stuff that I only skim. Things dealing with dates are not my thing. These are not the ‘motivating’ things that cause people to develop a bad heart. Rather, if some have already developed a bad heart, they latch onto the fact that people ‘at the top’ disagree (Duh) and make maximum hay out of it. Or they find that there has been much hashing out over what eventually comes out as a unified whole, and they bail on that account.

The one of good heart sees such disagreement & says ‘Ah, well, they’ll figure it out,’ and carries on without undo fuss. Since we have been wrong many times before, it seems a little foolish to insist that it will never happen again. ‘If they are on the wrong side of this or that bit of prophesy, they’ll figure it out and get on the right side,’ says the one of good heart.

No. I don’t care about such things. Why some do I’ll never know, but it’s a good thing that they do. Everyone has a gift. I like to focus on what I think is more relevant  - the qualities attributed to ‘apostates’ in Jude and 2Peter—an insistence on self-determination, and a disdain for authority. I am in my element when I get to kick back at those who would capitalize on genuine tragedies, such as CSA, to seek to destroy the ones preaching the good news.

With a major ‘reform,’ making clear that there is absolutely no reproach in reporting vile things to the authorities, some of the most virulent of our critics lose something huge to them - a little like ‘what is Tom Brady going to do with himself after he retires?’ Some face withering away like Roger Chillingsworth. They almost have no choice but to find some pissy little thing that could conceivably allow something bad to yet happen and harp on that to the cows come home.

Since I don’t care about the aspects of theocratic life that you do, I have probably overstepped in some places and drawn your reproof. I apologize. One of the prime things Jehovah hates is anyone spreading contentions among brothers. I won’t do it. When I once ‘liked’ a post of Captain Zipzeronada, a brother who was solid but rigid was stumbled. I apologized to him and didn’t do it again for the longest time - until the old pork chop said something to reveal that beneath his breathtaking pig-headedness, he was  likable in some respects and I couldn’t resist.

 Our people do not typically do well online. They take shots at each other for not toeing the line in this or that aspect of service. Or they say: “This is what Jehovah has said:” to people who don’t necessarily care what he has said. They lookridiculous as they try to make the Internet behave like the congregation. As much as I appreciate your goal, if you told your circuit overseer that you were having a hard time purifying the Internet, what do you think he would say?

3 minutes ago, Witness said:

IMy, you give Jesus little credit.

Jesus with the organization that he leads results in persons of developing lands possessing modern Bible translations that, if need be, are free.

Jesus ‘in the hearts’ of renegade anointed who refuse to cooperate with an arrangement because they think they are not given their proper place results in those persons stuck with an archaic translation that they can neither understand nor afford.

That’s why I think he operates in the first way.

My, you give Jesus little credit.

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

can't tell for sure who you are talking to here. You addressed the post with the Op-Ed to @TrueTomHarley, but this current post that I'm quoting from directly responds to some points that I made. So if it's all the same to

It was probably for you. I had no idea what he was talking about and only responded to what I knew.

Let me check. Is this the open or the closed JW forum?

ahhh, it’s the open forum.

HEY @James Thomas Rook Jr.! HERE’S SOME GOOD COUNSEL FOR YOU!

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

We
are publishing this notice so that the feebleminded
(1 Thess. 5: 14) may not be deceived.

It’s  GAME ON, YOU PORK CHOP!

And after I was so nice to you on the closed forum.

(sorry)

”the riot squad is restless; they need somewhere to go”...Bob Dylan 

1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

Tom, 

I read your introduction to you book. I'll reply tomorrow on it. I want to make a good statement,  and have to think about it.  Perhaps you can send me a digital copy and I'll read it and respond accordingly.  Until then, I'll reply tomorrow.  

The download is free.in EPUB or PDF.

3 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

Is that your sarcastic comments have underlying truth to it that you don't even know. It's almost like you do know, but can't say it frankly, so you have to resort to the sarcasm. 

It is well past time to kick back at certain dogs that are barking, even if I don’t get very far. You’ll be happy to know that your ‘contributions’ make up a substantial of the chapter ‘Money’ of Dear Mr. Putin -Jehovah’s Witnesses Write Russia.

Don’t misunderstand. Ones who hated Witnesses before will still hate them. But most people recognize mean-spirited pettiness when they see it, harping upon what is essentially nothing for the sake of tearing down something noble. These are the ones I have endeavored to reach, as explained in the Introduction.

https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/815620

The Witness organization does a lot of things. It takes money. Duh.

They are not afraid to say that. They don’t say it every single meeting, which is the pattern in the world of churches. You could easily miss it if you weren’t paying attention.

48 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

It's not my selfishness that annoys you TTH, it's my strength.

Yesterday in service there was one of those pissy little yappy dogs nipping at my pant leg. I was annoyed with its strength.

You overestimate yourself, John.

43 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Tom, i do not have a 'side'.  Please get it through your head that i act totally ALONE. 

Well, there you go then. Coordinated effort such as under the direction of the GB can result in real spiritual benefits to people around the world, particularly in developing lands.

You sitting ALONE in your hut cannot, even if you are tight with Jesus.

I think it is the selfishness of the independent course that most annoys me. 

21 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Remember that Tom. Those 8 men are only men. They are not God nor Jesus Christ. 

Come, come. This is why your side becomes disorganized rabble, each person flailing away, and ultimately accomplishing little. Worse, they soon take sides over the many divisive issues of this system and are presently at each other’s throats—despite each one’s ‘personal relationship with Jesus.’

Every project needs direction and someone to lead. It is no more complicated than that. Refraining from critiquing them over every little thing is not the same as ‘worshipping’ them.

Many have tried to explain this to you, to no end. For the life of me, I cannot bring myself to explain something so obvious.

Hey, @Shiwiiiiiiiiiiiiii:

THIS is where my little joke better fits:

Did you hear the one about the ‘prosperity gospel’ preacher who tried to lure them in with Beatles tunes and got stuck on the first line?

“You never give me your money.

You never give me your mohuhuny.

 You never give me your muhuhuhuhuhoneeee.”

Let’s draw in a few more dense people and then see whether we can knock it out of the park.

6 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

 

7 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

To quote TTH " I do not ever say that the slave is wrong. It is not my place, even were I to think it. "   This is so sad as I presume he is talking about the Governing Body. 

No John. I keep a slave at home. In some respects I am behind the times.

42 minutes ago, FelixCA said:

James 1:26:   If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue 

Well, you’ve got me there. And he. I plead ‘No contest.” Probably he will, too.

42 minutes ago, FelixCA said:

Let's move on.

Yes. We’re going to get along just fine. I like being corrected by you and I do not blow it off as nothing, even if it does not trigger an immediate change. It surely will trigger a subtle one, in the ‘iron sharpens iron’ vein.

A Christian ought to be uncomfortable to find himself out of the mainstream of the Body of Christ, and he ought be ready to yield to it. THAT is where I might fault some, if anyone is demonstrably unwilling to yield. I do not ever say that the slave is wrong. It is not my place, even were I to think it. I have said, however, that there is a downside to this or that policy, as I did with what is becoming my specialty:

“It may be unavoidable, but the scriptural counsel to avoid apostates come what may has a serious downside. If a youngster of ours succumbs to the oldest trap of human nature- going somewhere out of curiosity because he has been advised not to, and he stumbles, he finds himself totally unsupported because we don’t know what is there ourselves. All we can say is that he shouldn’t go there, which opposers spin as proof that he should stay in order to escape from being “controlled.”  I don’t know the answer, but it would be nice if there was one.”

When I was asked to give the funeral talk by the widow of a good friend, I replied that I would but I didn’t know if it would be allowed at the KH, me being neither elder nor MS. It was. On the night of the talk, an elder there known for dotting ‘i’s and crossing ‘t’s asked me if I was using the outline. I told him that I was not and he was unhappy. Afterwards, however, he was. Another brother there with Bethel experience told me that they don’t mind at all ‘departing from script’ if one can improve upon it...they do it all the time.

Many things that are eventually adopted HQ was initially skeptical of. The quick build KHs are a case in point. They kept their distance until they saw that the brothers with experience in the field could pull it off. When they were satisfied it could be done, they leant full support.

The paranoid JTR often says of the GB, “Everything not expressly allowed is forbidden!” It probably is so in his case because everything he does is accusatory and crass. But in the case of brothers of good heart, I think it is not. They’re okay with probing about and experimentation at HQ, I think, so long as it is done in an appropriate way and so long as the one doing it doesn’t ultimately come to regard it as the hill he is willing to die on. 

I am ‘out there’ in some respects, but I do not think myself above theocratic arrangements. If the brothers at OPI said, ‘FalseTom, what are you doing?? You’re screwing up the works!!’ I would change course promptly. I have not kept myself hidden from them.

13 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

I'm just curious about what people think when they hear that more kh's have been sold and folks sent to other kh's that had less people in it. 

It’s because of our great growth. Duh!

3 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Tom, can you honestly show me any reason I should be removed ? Quote "It is very hard for me to justify why he was thrown overboard and the equally bombastic Rook and shrill Butler were not. "

It’s not so much that you should be. It’s that he shouldn’t have been. It is anything goes here. That’s just the way it is.

The one-sided action favors the perception that The Librarian, that old hen, is in bed with apostates. ( Yeccchhhh)