TrueTomHarley

2 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

You should have already bee aware that R.Franz never made any such claim like this either.

What became of his wife? I never hear about her.

12 hours ago, Guest Nicole SG said:

Venezuela protests again started 2 days ago

It is hard for me to imagine how the brothers, or anyone for that matter, manage to endure such situations that you describe. Perhaps our turn will come someday, or if not in that way, in some other way.

31 minutes ago, Anna said:

I think you have totally misread TTH

I’d only do it for Anna and JWI. And even for them there would be height limitations.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Each thing i read makes the JW Org seem worse and worse

I think that this is entirely the wrongheaded approach, to look at the shortcomings, real or imagined, of those taking the lead. Instead, you should look at what they alone have managed to accomplish.

The best man at my wedding was a man 15 years my senior, crude in some respects, but he taught me how to look over a used car before purchase so as not to get fleeced. He was a lifelong mechanic with an uncanny instinct for instant diagnosis.

He told me about a time when the book & computer, but not common-sense, young mechanics were unsuccessfully trying to fix a car. They had reached an impasse. All the diagnostics they ran confirmed that there was nothing wrong with the car. “There must be SOMETHING wrong with it,” Bud said, “since it doesn’t run.” He found the problem promptly & and it was some quirky thing not mentioned in any book.

With the GB, the situation is just the opposite. You can scrutinize them for all the dumb things that you think they are doing, the things that you have proclaimed “a big worry.” Or you can look at 

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

the truly monumental building work that JWs have accomplished in worldwide support of the good news, a coordinated 'shout of praise' that nobody else manages to get off the launching pad?

and say “They must be doing SOMETHING right, since it DOES run.” Whatever is or is not “wrong” with them, if history is any guide, they or theirs will fix. It will not be “debate” with someone who has demonstrated only a mastery of the “harangue” that will do the trick.

6 hours ago, JW Insider said:

 It's also true that we only have his side of the story. 

You seem to correctly anticipate that I have still not read his book. Though I read all the time, I have read very little of this sort of material, which might seem surprising since I have written four books in support of Witnesses and their organization  I could spin this as being  'obedient,' I guess, and it is that in part. But in greater part it is that I look at such material almost as red herrings that distract. Everyone has a history. Everyone has had experiences. Everyone has acted or not acted upon them. It's not people that count, ultimately, but God, and having been around long enough, you can pick up on and originate words that adhere to the 'pattern of healthful teachings' that Paul spoke about. The doings of others just distract, as they pursue their own service and relationship to God. As long as you do not become obstinate with regard to the earthly organization, you do fine (usually). If you do not, you take your licks, dust yourself off, pay whatever price you must, and get back into the mix. Maybe that will be your fate someday. Maybe (gasp!) it will be mine. But I think not in either case. If it should prove to be, the 'damage' is repairable.

Almost everything on every thread here (at least the ones I frequent) are advancing or defending against an attempt to undermine the earthly organization. The appeal of undermining it is irresistible. That way, if you don't like something, you simply 'interpret it away' and there is no one to call you on it. No harm done.

6 hours ago, JW Insider said:

But these issues he brings up, along with a review of our own organizational history from WT publications, all support the idea that someone in his situation could easily have had a crisis of conscience. I think he should have had one. I thought it should have led to him resigning from the Governing Body before he was asked to resign, rather than just take a leave of absence from the Governing Body during this time of crisis.

For once I will do a Butler and say that I am looking at things that are too great for me. What is the interplay of the divine/human interface? It's not anything that I am willing to say "this is" and "this isn't." Become minute enough and one might say that there is no interplay at all - that it is all but human politics, but then how does one account for the truly monumental building work that JWs have accomplished in worldwide support of the good news, a coordinated 'shout of praise' that nobody else manages to get off the launching pad? No, I think "too great for me" is where I will hold.

'Acquiescing' appears to be where it is at. For many decades now the emphasis has been on elder bodies reaching unanimous agreement, an almost impossible feat for humans to manage, and then, the 'losing' side to refrain from criticizing the 'winners,' with unity being the important consideration. It wasn't something that I was much good at, and if some 'blockheaded' brother won the day, I was hard-pressed to not carry on about it afterwards. Still,  I managed to do it to a reasonable degree. 

6 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Jealous ? Is his book getting more attention than yours ?  

Furious. The little creep.

I don't have it in for him for writing his book, nor even his title. After a lifetime at Bethel, leaving with but a suitcase, what else is he going to do? I am even reasonably charitable towards a former Witness turned movie-maker that I write about in my book. He must be given credit, if only begrudgingly, for redefining the game. It is still winnable--how can it not be with Jehovah?--but it may call for a new approach in dealing with the malcontents.

Maybe what rankles is the title, Crisis of Conscience. Isn’t that a bit self-aggrandizing? Why not name it “Memo From One Whose Eyes Are Too Pure to Look Upon Trouble, Though it Apparently Doesn’t Bother My Colleages Any”?

Now, had he named it TrueRay vs the Stalwarts, it would be a different thing entirely 

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

That complete sentence had a meaning which you have deliberately removed. 

You can get around that problem by being internally consistent.

11 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

And it's only books, which anyone could write from their own viewpoint, 

Do you know of any other kind?

18 minutes ago, Matthew9969 said:

I'm not particularly fond of pizza anymore and stopped eating it, would that make me an apizstate?

When they distributed food items at the Assembly Hall, I was placed in charge of the crew. A popular item was “a pasta salad.” I must have rechristened it a hundred times as “an apostasy salad” - long before I ever heard of The Librarian, and perhaps even the Internet.

2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

But there is no defence for Child Abuse and / or hiding pedophiles in the JW Org. 

There are at least six chapters on the topic.

Failing to acquiesce to your point of view is not a crime, particularly when you repeatedly point out that you are but a simple man with limited education, and that many things are over your head, and that (the obvious upshot) you really don’t understand anything about anything at all, but you do know what you like and don’t like and you want your rants to carry the day.

A former Witness who departed for atheism expressed amazement that her former faith, oddball and backwater in her revisionist eyes, would become front & center on the world stage. Yet it has happened with Jehovah’s Witnesses, in both Russia and the West, for completely separate reasons.

“Therefore settle it in your hearts not to rehearse beforehand how to make your defense...”. Luke 21:14

Actually I did rehearse a little. For the book ‘Dear Mr. Putin - Jehovah’s Witnesses Write Russia,’ I rehearsed it here, and I am grateful to both @admin and @The Librarian (the old hen) for providing the forum that made it possible...a forum in which ‘heroes’ and ‘villains’ freely intermingle. A writer needs more than a muse. He also needs a ‘villain,’ and here there are many.

I never dreamed that a second book would come out of the forum, but come out it did (aided by Twitter). The title is even inspired by The Librarian (a fine woman), even though I was initially aggravated that she should assign me to head up that so-named thread, ‘TrueTom vs the Apostates’...I mean, it’s not as though I went out of my way to pick fights with these characters. All is forgiven now, and I have the sense...a big deal for someone who pretends to be a writer...of ‘bringing my gift to the altar’....defending the faith against attacks in Russia, and now in the West:

https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/917311

No cheap shots. No one disrespected. No patronizing. No ‘You’ll be sorrys.’ No one called a liar. As good a behavior as can be expected from a PIMI amidst many POMOs. 

Both ebooks are free.

“Now when they heard these things, they acquiesced, and they glorified God, saying: “Well, then, God has granted repentance for the purpose of life to people of the nations also.”   (Acts 11:18)

“When he would not be dissuaded, we acquiesced with the words: “Let the will of Jehovah take place.”  (Acts 21:14)

Sometimes a guy just has to acquiesce. There’s not enough acquiescing goin on here.

When I wrote ‘TrueTom vs the Apostates’ I could have gone one of two ways: ‘apostates’ who remained believers and those who went atheistic. I went the latter - the only group I could get my head around. The former produces nothing more than ineffectual islands, so far as I can tell. 

It’s fine not to acquiesce if you want to give up on God. But you must if you don’t want to give up on him.

1 hour ago, Anna said:

@Jaocb I never thought about the option of providing several interpretations. That would have been a good idea. Do you have some in mind?

GENERATION (GENE-RATION)  from. ‘gene,’ a foreshortened version of generous, i.e. abundance 

and

’ration’ which suggests a limited supply, the very opposite of abundance.

From this we may conclude that the word itself is an oxymoron. Think anything you want.

”I think he’s got it. I think he’s got it. BY GEORGE, HE’S GOT IT!!”

I am very very close to liking one of Jack’s contributions. However I note that the ‘tight pants sinful brother’ looks somewhat like his profile pic. I need some time to process that.

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

And with many other words he [Peter] gave a thorough witness

“I get words all day through 

first from him, now from you 

is that all you blighters can do?”

40 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

The words are,  JEHOVAH kindly asks us to trust in HIM. The words are NOT  trust in the GB of JW org.  

Oh very well. Wait for him to tap you on the shoulder, make that request, and then say “Okay.”

41 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

As far as "liking to talk" goes, guilty.

Uh oh. I sure hope one does not get tossed in the crapper for THAT indiscretion. 

I appeal to Scripture for support!!

“For the [true] God is in the heavens but you are on the earth. That is why your words should prove to be few.” (Eccles 5:2)

Oh, wait. Not THAT scripture.

16 hours ago, Jaocb said:

They also made other comments that i think will be picked up and used by apostates in the coming years when things dont develop as quickly as we thought.

The trick is to make so many that they will choke on them all. 

16 hours ago, Jaocb said:

. I thik it is significant that WWI started in 1914. Its a major coincidence and the world acknowledges taht the world as we know it changed. I don't have to pull references form a Watchtower to find them. It was in my history book. I've seen these references in numerous publications that I read casually. THe world changed in 1914.

The first time the entire world goes to war (peace taken away from the earth) AND the end of the Gentile Times coincide, and it is 'just one of those things?' Like you, I think not. I posted once how a great hobby would be collecting 1914 quotations. Many more were offered in my comment section: 

https://www.tomsheepandgoats.com/2010/01/the-1914-collection.html

You could even make a case that all the wavering over 1914 is succumbing to a giant head fake, like the Israelites with their fronts up to the Red Sea and Pharaoh bearing down on them.

16 hours ago, Jaocb said:

Jehovah's Witnesses constantly Getting it Wrong!

It's sarcasm, I know. All that you said was concise and spot-on. Why should I say it again.

16 hours ago, Jaocb said:

JEhovah's pitiful Witnesses are not afraid of the ridicule. They believe that God will grant understanding and they press on. They simply have faith that God will vindicate them for their efforts and expose those who lack faith in God's Word!

Yes!! This even harkens back to something @JOHN BUTLER said about believing without knowing all the details. Nobody would ever do anything with that requirement thrown in. There would be no businesses started, inventions begun, or explorations embarked upon.

One never knows it all. It is enough to see that the basic framework  holds and trust that elucidation will be found along the way.

16 hours ago, Jaocb said:

I do believe Jehovah's WItnesses are approaching the end of their rope. If Jesus doesn't come soon, it will be the end of our religion! 

Yes. A giant head fake at the end. Backs to the wall. It has happened many times in Bible history, and a few times since.

I like the quote from this week's Watchtower study about Habakkuk: "[Jehovah] kindly asks us to trust in him and await patiently for his appointed time..." That doesn't sound too demanding, does it? That doesn't sound too unaccepting of human frailty, does it?

On 1/18/2019 at 3:01 PM, Shiwiii said:

But the requirement of jws is to adhere to ALL teachings of wt unless you would like to lose your family or in the case of not having family, be expelled. This is the case even if you know in your heart that you are correct, to keep up with the gb chariot, one must believe what they say verses what the Bible tells them.  Again, the Bible warns against such things, juts as you pointed out at Matt 23:1-3. 

All you have to do is abstain from fomenting a coup. This gets so old. 

You don't have to endorse every expressed view. (unless, as @JW Insider mentioned, you have taken a position of representative that says you do...but that is the same with any organization) 

Of course they would prefer that you get your head around every expressed view. Who wouldn't? But all you really need do is refrain from grabbing the wheel of the bus.

When you start singing the Buffalo Springfield song, "Step out of line, the men come and take you away," it is evidence that you have drunk too much of the Kool-Aid yourself.

On 1/18/2019 at 6:42 PM, Shiwiii said:

And here lies the crux of the matter. ...then there might be a change that was not from the top down but rather from the bottom up. 

It is the crux of the matter. Jehovah's people have signed on for being "taught by Jehovah." That is almost certainly going to be "from the top down." Your preferred alternative, "from the bottom up" would be Jehovah being "taught by us."

This is not hard to understand. If the answer is "from the bottom up" then there is frankly no need for God at all.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

As for @Jaocb 's idea that one should not criticise if one does not have an alternative answer. That is a very crazy notion. 

It's a brilliant notion. It is pretty much what everyone's mother used to say: "If you can't say anything nice, [constructive] don't say anything." We are too much of the '60 Minutes investigative reports' generation, ever imagining we have blown the cover off some scheme or other. 

38 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Because they are Governing Body of all JW people. If they dare to say something like this, to whom JW people will go for water of truth???? :))))))  Well, they will never say, we do not know, but they will say, "some of us was thought", "in the past we believed" and similar general phrases.   

Sometimes they say "we do not know." I believe they have said it with regard to the interior rooms, for example. Tell @JOHN BUTLER Someone find the quote, please.

35 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

When Hitler first became a known figure, was he considered a good man or wicked ? Did people follow him for his good thoughts and actions ? Was it not later when the power went to his head etc... that he became wicked ?

No. He was a lout from the beginning. A rabble rouser. Nobody thought he was Father Christmas. But he capitalized on some very real injustices. The victors of WWI were intent on punishing Germany & did so to such as harsh degree that their economy was crushed & national pride maligned. Hitler vowed to remedy those woes & restore Germany to greatness. He appealed to poverty and wounded nationalism, which works anywhere.

When the axis powers were beaten a second time (WWII) the victors did not repeat that mistake, but endeavored to rebuild the countrys they had demolished.

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

When people think in polarized terms, it's difficult to get anywhere.

Polarized thinking impedes progress. Unfortunately, it is now the order of the day.

I even think it is exacerbated by the self-deceptive phrase ‘critical thinking’ and its corollary of avoiding ‘cognitive dissonance.’ It’s a concept worthy of a pamphlet, perhaps, but no more.

Not only is it possible to hold two contradictory ideas in one’s head at the same time, but it is surely the mark of a dogmatist to refuse to do it. Often you put something promising but incomplete on the shelf until you can reconcile it with other ideas.

3 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Make a private club for the snobs, then turn the public club into a comedy show. Think that will discourage us? I think not.

Curses! Foiled again!

(Honestly, John, you’re suggesting these ideas to me. I’m not thinking any of them out up front.)

In an odd sort of way, I am proud of our “apostates.” Ours are the best. Nobody else’s comes close. 

I would be worried if we didn’t have them. It would suggest not too much difference between the Christian congregation and the overall world.

3 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

I hope your little personal attacks make you feel better.

This is not directed at me, I know. Take note that, apart from stringing out the ‘i’ of your moniker to an unusual degree once or twice, I have been the perfect gentleman, causing no problems whatsoever