TrueTomHarley

On ‎10‎/‎7‎/‎2018 at 3:40 AM, Srecko Sostar said:

Many of the used words are not the fabrication of the one who writes them, but are in use for a long time. Those involved in the discussion know what they are talking about.

Well, he is right on that. @Admin should take that under consideration before he goes Howard Beale on us again.

1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

NOBODY even CAN read that many letters.

I go through all of your comments, don’t I?

2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I have yet to see him complain directly to me,  so I presume he is ok with it.  Move on. 

I am ok with it. Sometimes it is even deserved. That is, as long as you confine yourself to Gone Home’s second definition. Go in peace, my son.

8 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

As for the Christmas colours. Who designed and brought into being colours ? Was it Jehovah God or Father Christmas ? Huh, Christmas colours rubbish. Once again Traditions of Men.

Look, don’t make me mad!

GREEN IS GOOD. RED IS BAD!! Or is it the other way around. Either way, Xmas sucks.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

S M  you are not a J.W.  so they would say you...We have free will to serve God or....You have free will to do what....Don't you see a similarity there, but you told me i was wrong ? 

We don’t do Christmas around here. What! Did you forget everything?

Hey @admin! Like what you see?

It sure did scare me when you whirled about with ‘If you kids don’t stop crying back there, I’m going to stop this car and give you something to cry about!’

No lasting effect, though.

You may not have seen how I expanded upon that last post. I had tons of fun with it. And I am not done yet. Not to worry. It all makes you look good, and even the Librarian will survive:

http://www.tomsheepandgoats.com/2018/10/high-praise-for-chuckles.html

5 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

You did some good research. Hopefully, someday it will make sense for you.

Billy’s right. Often the answer is ‘Who cares?’ 

Bethel only cares that the scriptures not be dissed. They do not presume to instruct scientists on their own turf, and when they do, they back off.

They have referred to the time since the beginning as eons, and the creative days as epochs. Do with those terms what you will. 

Does some view of science back them into a corner? Maybe it will change. If it doesn’t and seems to be valid, new light will take care of it. Let scientists be scientists and Bible teachers be Bible Teachers. It’s amazing how anal some people get.

Are they dogmatic at JW headquarters? They have published an interview with Michael Behe, who accepts evolution in the main, but just insists that it has limits. They wouldn’t have done that if they hated each others guts.

34 minutes ago, Hankulan Tunani said:

It’s funny how Trump supporters screamed

I could have told you that JTR would instantly jump in to answer this one. I didn't need a crystal ball for that one.

1 hour ago, Hankulan Tunani said:

Wow! The most outrageous claim I have read to date. Children are being molested at every kingdom hall.

Yeah. The opponents are going bonkers. That is why this might have a place somehow:

 

Here is Part 2:

https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/topic/70723-is-it-time-for-jehovahs-witnesses-to-apologize-part-2/

First, it may be well to catch up with Part 1: 

https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/topic/70655-is-it-time-for-jehovahs-witnesses-to-apologize-part-1/

Jehovah’s Witnesses did fail in this regard. Let us admit it. They failed to ‘go beyond the law.’ The stakes are so high that law is thereafter reinterpreted to mean that they did violate it. Why did they fail? Ms. Chuck accurately states that any Witness victim or family of victim was always free to report child sexual abuse and that congregation justice did not preclude outside secular justice. Arguably, then, they failed because they were insular, as she says, and they may not realize just how firmly she has put her finger on the reason. They were not inclined to air their dirty laundry before the public.

It is not hard to understand. In some cultures, the concept of ‘saving face’ is so firmly entrenched that your efforts to communicate are doomed to failure if you ignore it. The very reason there is an expression ‘skeletons in the closet’ is the universal human instinct to keep them there. It is even found in the scriptures that Ms. Chuck acknowledges underlie everything Witnesses do. Decrying the spectacle of early Christians taking one another into court over personal disputes, the apostle Paul writes: “I am speaking to move you to shame. Is there not one wise man among you who is able to judge between his brothers? Instead, brother goes to court against brother, and before unbelievers at that!” If Jehovah’s Witnesses today are ‘insular,’ it is because Christians back then were ‘insular.’

In this case, however, insularity, and the failure to ‘go beyond the law’ has resulted in child abusers who did not take their turn in the police lineup, as well as victims thereby deprived of justice. Whether they would have received justice otherwise is arguable, for no end of persons manage to evade the wrath of the law. But that is not the point. They should have been turned over to police, the argument goes, for the latter to either nail them to the wall or let them beat the rap. The victims want justice. Like victims anywhere, they don’t always get it. But don’t get in the way of their quest for it. Since the Witness organization is perceived to have gotten in the way, with law being reinterpreted so as to more damningly point to that conclusion, should they apologize to victims or issue a public statement of regret? You could certainly build a case for it.

When the cop speeds in hot pursuit and a horrific accident results, pointing out that he had permission to speed only goes so far. There are times when only a sincere expression of regret stems the tide of outrage, for who is going to dismiss a run-over pedestrian as ‘just one of those things’?  At such times legal matters become technicalities and you look tone-deaf if you harp on them. Best to say that, in pursuing one’s mission, even within existing rules, a terrible tragedy has resulted for which there is sincere regret.

Were the Witness organization to ever do that, it would cut them no slack with the Reddit group. They would merely drop down a notch on their list to highlight the next reason they hate their former religion before surfacing briefly again to declare the statement insincere. No, there will be no placating these folks. But it might very well clear the air for all other persons, who know very well, simply through personal experience, that Jehovah’s Witnesses are very fine people. Even arch-enemy Barbara Anderson concedes this, as she somehow manages to insinuate that this is despite their evil governing body, rather than the much more reasonable ‘because of it.’

Not because of it solely, of course, for Witnesses’ decency stems from the God they worship. But in the sense that the Witnesses’ governing body keeps them clearly focused on the Bible, the source they signed on for, they surely deserve credit, not condemnation. Almost all other faiths have swayed with the changing winds of contemporary culture. Witnesses have not. They merely update now and then, as they have with their procedures of child sexual abuse investigations. Is it intimidating for a victim of child sexual abuse to appear before the three men of a investigatory committee? Well, they never thought of that. Maybe they should have. So now it is that a child’s recorded testimony can serve itself as the witness and he or she does not have to appear personally. If he or she does, it can be with any congregation member they choose, whether male or female. The religion’s fiercest critics say they will never stop opposing until Witnesses fix their child abuse policies. Arguably, they already have, since almost all cases tried are from 20-30 years ago.

Not everyone likes Jehovah’s Witnesses. Probably more do not than do. But people are mostly fair. A statement of regret would go a long way for them to say: “Oh, I see. They did screw it up, but now I can see why. They really do abhor child sexual abuse over there.”  Otherwise, their enemies find it a cakewalk to portray those in leadership positions among Jehovah’s Witnesses as ‘arrogant,’ and in some cases, careful cultivators of child sexual abusers. They are probably the least arrogant people on earth, but that does not mean they cannot be painted that way.

They do Bible education work. They do it extensively and effectively. In the developing world, a person is stuck with some 200-year old turkey of a Bible translation that he can neither afford nor understand because nobody other than Jehovah’s Witnesses thinks it is inappropriate for Big Business to handle distribution of the Word of God. The Witness Governing Body does think it is inappropriate and they have invented an entirely new production and distribution channel so that the person can obtain a modern Bible at minimal cost, or even free. That accomplishment is not nothing.

They do not do all of this personally, of course. Detractors routinely spin it that Witnesses are ‘controlled’ by ‘eight men in New York.’ It makes no sense. They are modest persons. Many of them cut their teeth performing their trademark door-to-door ministry in the developing world, carrying out a work more lowly than that of the ones they ultimately lead. They have a certain knack at administration, as with any effective organization, but other than that, they have little expertise in anything. But they know where to find it when they need it. From a field of eight million members, where there are no paywalls nor turf battles, they can quickly assemble whatever they deem necessary.

Their latest offering in the field of Bible education consists of an online, self-guided, and anonymous course of Bible study offered on the front page of their website, JW.org. The Bible offers convincing answers to important questions of life, Jehovah's Witnesses feel, questions not readily answered anywhere else. The course is all available online for free, now. After each lesson there is the option to 1) go deeper, for the presentation is necessarily simple, 2) attend a group study at the Witnesses’ Kingdom Hall, 3) request a personal instructor, or 4) say ‘none of the above’ and proceed to the next lesson. It’s a relatively new feature. I don’t know how it will be incorporated. But with only some exaggeration, I am looking forward to saying: “I don’t want to study the Bible with you. Do it yourself. If you have any questions or want to go a level more, I’ll be around.” With only slightly more exaggeration again, the new feature illustrates that, if need be, the main Bible teaching component of the Witnesses’ work could be run out of a server in someone’s dorm room.

They always will be ‘insular,’ or to put in their terminology, ‘no part of the world.’ Surely, they must be permitted to be, for the alternative is to snuff out the type of Christianity that existed in the first century, arguably the most 'true' model. Snuffing out this model in favor of societally evolved ones would be a very fine outcome in the eyes of today’s ‘anti-cultists,’ who will allow that religion can have a place only so long as it is clearly subservient to contemporary life and leaders. Anything not meeting this description they are inclined to label a ‘cult’ that ‘brainwashes’ people through ‘mind-control.’ Those of that spirit of Western anti-cultists have used exactly that reasoning to fuel the furor that has banned Jehovah’s Witnesses in Russia and confiscated all of their property, with many other faiths shaking in their boots that they will be next. Of a prominent Russian anti-cultist, Alexander Dvorkin, who shares Western connections via an French NGO, a human-rights expert has said: he “enjoys disseminating inflammatory narratives and hate speech.” It is no less with anti-cultists here, who further their goals through whatever avenues present themselves.

It may well be time to acknowledge that this avenue, this one involving child sexual abuse reporting, is one that became riddled with axle-bending potholes, express sincere remorse, help out to whatever extent is necessary to fill them in, so as to move on with the overall program.

End of Part 2. Part 3 to follow.

20 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

On ‎10‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 3:14 PM, JOHN BUTLER said:

Yes i think he likes to look very intelligent and knowledgeable to everyone....(His reply: That's because I am)

 

You know, I like this. I just do. I mean, he is. Say it & be done with it & move along, as he does. He is not self-aggrandizing. He doesn't do it to show off. He is merely trying to strike blows for what is truthful.

On 10/10/2018 at 2:06 PM, Anna said:

As? regards Lloyd Evans, he used to be in my circuit. Just a bit of trivia .?

 

He wrote a one or two paragraph article about the Dec 2018 WT & for 42 straight days he had been pitching it to two womanÂ’s rights group, tagging them each day, and scolding them when they do not respond. It is staggering self-importance, IMO.

 I half expect his next post to be: ‘G**dammit, answer me when I’m talking to you!’

On 10/10/2018 at 2:06 PM, Anna said:

I read? some very disparaging reviews about his book he just published. Remarks made by his fellow apostates, no?t Witn?esses. I think many of them do not hold him in high regard, hence his paranoia...??

And to think that, as Witnesses, they used to get along so well.

58 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

And with all the legal goings on Earthwide I would think the Org are fast losing money. 

These amounts are generally reduced upon appeal and sometimes thrown out entirely, as was the previous record-holder. The much ballyhooed $4000 a day penalty imposed by some court, which ultimately became a substantial sum, was thrown out by a higher court as judicial overreach, just as @AllenSmith34, practically alone as I recall, said. In that regard, although chased around so much that he had to employ 100 aliases, though nobody else suffers too much for being offensive, he proved himself the MVP of the forum.

Nevertheless, I would never say that they are nothing, nor that they do not add up. Time will tell. It may be that our version of truth will prevail in time and not yours. Will Jehovah go to bat for those who, to the best of their ability, carry out his will? If he does, it will be like putting his finger on the scales. So substantial is his finger that whoever sits on the opposite scale goes hurtling off into oblivion.

To the extent that you succeed in your goal you impede the most selfless and efficient disaster relief program the world has known. Will God allow that? Time will tell. 

Please don't carry on about 'they only help fellow Witnesses.' The reason that they only (for the most part) help fellow Witnesses is that they are mostly volunteers using vacation time, and cannot do everyone. The best they can to is to set an example in selflessness that others can follow, if their heart moves them. So far, their example is not followed by others, who prefer established charities where everyone must be paid and sometimes unbelievable waste occurs. Such as here:

https://www.propublica.org/article/how-the-red-cross-raised-half-a-billion-dollars-for-haiti-and-built-6-homes

This is the model you have chosen, John. Half a million dollars. Almost all of it flushed down the toilet. Embrace it, John. It's yours. JTR too, I think, for he has also waxed enthusiastic over the prospect that the JW relief work may be slowed.

37 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

The WT Study conductor was somewhat chagrined at my comment ...Another few sentences and I would have been on "The List".

What is the phone number of your WT conductor?

33 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

but I did enjoy last weekend's WT Study ... where THREE TIMES they referred to  Elders Tom and John's interactions as a fictional account (Once in the paragraph, and twice in the questions).

I managed to torpedo even that. After the paragraphs carrying on and on about Tom’s misguided suspicions, I raised my hand and said: ‘In hindsight I was embarrassed over the whole thing, and I’m glad that I didn’t blow the brother in.’

8 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

 I am extending an open invitation for him to come over to my house sometime ... I would be glad to have him for dinner.

Well, I certainly don’t see any downside here. I’ll just put back on the shelf that Twilight Zone episode, ‘To Serve Man,’ and be on my way.

 

1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

They do not want to be sued out of existence,

 

Say, did you hear that the report that Bethel was on the ropes was completely phony. Apostates had orgasms over that report, I recall, and every opposer here, even many of the faithful, swallowed it hook, line, and sinker. There really is something to be said for that recent study article on avoiding the liars.

 

2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Yes but the Apostle John wasn't talking pedophiles when he said 'they were not of our sort'. 

Actually he probably was. Not exclusively, but that was probably in the mix. Jesus said they would be “lyingly saying every sort of wicked thing” about his followers. History records they were accused of cannibalism. While not pedophilia?

What! Do you think I’m kidding? Yes, of course IÂ’m going to link to it. ItÂ’s unbelievable.

Covert says: “Hey guys, please read the correction below. Really sorry this slipped through, and we’ll tighten our process to make sure we don’t repeat it. Again, apologies everyone.

Well….probably no big deal, and after all, he did apologize. Let’s see what this is all about. His friend Lloyd says of his previous ‘report’:

“Thanks so much for the kind comments. We really enjoyed putting this episode together and I’m glad many of you seem to be finding it helpful and informative. Unfortunately, I need to offer an apology and a retraction. A trusted source passed on information to us that got included in the show notes but later proved to be incorrect. Specifically, the schedule of talks from which I was reading (including themes having to do with reduction and ‘centralization’ of branches) was apparently written by an ex-JW and was purely speculative and/or intended for satire [ed…it was a lie] Though we can see the funny side, we also take the accuracy and truthfulness of our work extremely seriously so I have edited out the relevant parts (edits may take a while to process and we are taking a close look at how we can more thoroughly vet our sources in the future. I can only apologize to the thousands of you who have already heard the incorrect information. The last thing we want to do is remotely contribute to affirming the “lying apostate” stereotype by passing on spurious information and we will certainly learn our lesson here. Thank you for your understanding on this.”

Of course! I understood perfectly, and I instantly dismissed it all as ‘just one of those things.’ I did this even though it was the apostate lie ‘heard around the world’ and if you had tapped their phones and been listening in to some of them, you would have thought they were having sex in there, so loud were the orgasms. What was causing the ‘reduction and centralization of branches,’ according to the retracted report, was the fantastic news that the Watchtower was on the ropes financially and just a few more successful lawsuits would topple them for good. This is the stated goal of many of them, to litigate their former religious organization out of existence, and this glorious bit of ‘news’ was more welcome to them than if their team had, not only won the Super Bowl, but had been conceded the championship for the next hundred years.

However, Lloyd is so responsible. He says he does not “remotely want to contribute to the ‘lying apostate’ stereotype,” as though he is genuinely amazed that anybody could ever think such a thing, but just to be sure, he will take action to eliminate this mother of all lies and not repeat it again. I hope you understand.

Look, if they ever succeeded in their stated goal of litigating the Watchtower out of existence, they would be proving themselves friends of child sexual abuse. There is good reason to think that Jehovah’s Witnesses enjoy considerable success in preventing it within their ranks, though with InvisibleChildren.org reporting that one out of five American children will be suffer molestation before 18, they clearly are not going to ever snuff it out. If they have enjoyed some success, then spread around whatever they have, and others will enjoy some success. It is not rocket science. It is not even ‘God’s spirit.’ If you hammer away at anything long enough, some of it sinks in. Relentlessly they teach family values over there in Witness-land, and they are the only organization on earth to have gathered each and every member via their 2017 summer convention and there consider detailed scenarios in which child abuse might occur, so that parents, the obvious first line of defense, can be vigilant. Moreover, since so much child sexual abuse occurs in settings of youth groups, surely it helps that they have no such segregation They don’t even do Sunday School.

You know, I donÂ’t really question LloydÂ’s sincerity in ferreting out an obvious lie, but I guarantee that he led the way with wet dreams when he heard that his former religion was on the ropes. Moreover, it improves matters only to a slight degree on his forum to take the blatant lie out, for the rest of it abounds with distortions of truth. They are often distortions hard-to-spot in a world gone increasingly atheistic. That is why I have declared him (for now) my #1 opponent and have written posts undercutting the hate that he spreads. For example, there is this article about women in abusive relationships. Is this hard on me? WellÂ…you know the expression that a writer needs a muse? He also needs a villain.

Lloyd is dumbfounded at the moniker ‘lying apostate.’ How could anyone think that? He is also offended should anyone connect him with the atrocities against religious people in Russia, my own first of all, they alone are under ban and declared extremists, a label they share only with ISIS. No! He will not be accused. Why, he has spoken out against it. But of his anti-cultist-in-spirit, one Alexander Dvorkin, who aggressively pushes there just what he pushes here and is affiliated with anti-cultists in France, a human-rights expert has stated: “He enjoys disseminating inflammatory narratives and hate speech.” It is no different with Lloyd and his buddies. When you spew hate speech, eventually there arise people who act upon it. And what will he say then?

‘Hey guys, just want to let you know that we released the hounds of hell and they did more damage than we ever intended. Sorry.’

 

 

2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Dear friend, if you are so busy in helping people in need, how you find time to respond on "stupid" things and loosing your valuable time on me and similar like me.?!  

HeÂ’s got a point there.

The trick is not to primarily speak to him, but to speak to whatever audience may be in the background.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Probably because you are looking for truth the same as i am  

You make a start by following as many contrasting sources as you can on Twitter. Don’t just follow the ‘home team.’

Also, cover as many different disciplines as you can.

9 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

 it's difficult to get the truth about anything.  MSN news, BBC news, Russia Today ? news, but who is telling the truth ?

Why do you think I am called TrueTom?

2 hours ago, admin said:

This club is about JW’s and @The Librarian is the main moderator. 

If I from time to time poke mild fun at @admin, it is nothing to the fun I poke at the Librarian, the old hen. It is riotous.

She really is a Jehovah's Witness, I think, though certainly an avant-guard one. She used to have for a banner an interior photo of a magnificent library; I thought it was the Library of Congress, but she told me it was some university library. It was gorgeous. 

Nonetheless, by degrees I have been able to portray her before the world as a petty mean school librarian, who really doesn't like children, but she is too arthritic and just plain tired to do much about it when they misbehave. Moreover, she is frequently on the bottle, and while she knows her pupils are tittering behind her back, and sometimes right in front of her, she spends most of her days counting down to her retirement. 

The strange thing about all of this is that she is actually a man. No, not a transgendered man; don't even go there. We started this gag long before transgenderism took the world by storm.

@The Librarian and I made a deal long ago after she unfairly accused me of hawking my first ebook, Tom Irregardless and Me, on her forum. It was inexcusable for her to do this and the only conceivable reason that I can think of to excuse her vile accusation is that I was hawking my first ebook, Tom Irregardless and Me, on her forum. I have been very careful not to ever do this again, which is a shame because it is an excellent ebook, and unlike Dear Mr. Putin - Jehovah's Witnesses Write Russia, it is not free. I actually make a buck off it. Maybe no small thing for you, but a big deal for me. Do you have any idea of how my wife goes through money?  So crack open your wallet and buy the thing already, will you? As books go, it is not pricey.

https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/686882

The Librarian would scream at me for this, normally. But here I am in her library, her bad boy pupil, but her pupil nonetheless, and she has not shown up for work yet. I think she may have fallen off the wagon once again.

2 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

People commit suicide mainly because their concept of how the Universe SHOULD be, differs from the way it really is, and their brains cannot resolve the difference between comfortable fantasy, their hopes and dreams, and day to day reality.

Of course! People want a universe that's good. Instead, they get one that sucks. They are  bummed over this. Whatever is wrong with them?

Are you sure you are a Witness? I mean, even as a renegade one, I don't see how it can be.

Does the JTR version of Jehovah's Witnesses really read that life just gets better and better, until God from his heavens says: "I was going to chastise these fine people? Whatever was I thinking?" and then goes off to see if 'Gone Fishing' has an empty spot?

24 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

when in fact it is the best time in the history of Human Civilization. (so far!)

 ... and that statement can be supported by MOUNTIANS of hard, cold facts.

Exactly! Like the skyrocketing suicide rate of the young, who somehow don’t buy this bilge about life just getting better and better & decide to register their discomfort in the most telling way possible.