TrueTomHarley

45 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I STRONGLY suspect that 20mg of Adderall, once a day would sharpen your focus so that you could cut steel with your vision. The "100 ideas at once" was the key that caused me to diagnose that.

 

I appreciate this. I really do, and you are not that far off the mark. Unfortunately, I tend to distrust such things, as a result of observing, reading, and yes, even some personal experience. 

I am content that I can sleep sound at night, or would, if I did not have to rise and pee, a condition not uncommon at my age. Usually I fall right back to sleep. But occasionally I must check to see that they are behaving with reasonable decorum at the WorldNewMedia and that the Librarian has not fallen off the wagon again.

29 minutes ago, AllenSmith said:

Therefore, WHO really do you need to thank for such division, here, if NOT those that started this forum over 5 years ago?

Don't look at me. I was nowhere close.    (who?)

Oh. Wait. I just reread and went on to the 2nd portion. You know, @James Thomas Rook Jr. is right and I really do appreciate his observation, though I am not sure he made it for that reason. I do miss things.

I will say it is because my mind is a veritable hive of activity, grappling with 100 ideas at once while the average person can do but one.

He will say it is because I am dumb.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

And Tom, I'm not even asking you to like me

John, if I ever was to find myself on the outside looking in due to what I thought was primarily 'politics', I would continue to come to meetings, and take in the instruction that is to found nowhere else, while I waited for the bruhaha to pass. Seriously. There is no reason you cannot.

I have thought about it. Here I am on a site where villains traverse freely and there is abundant counsel not to hang out with them. It is counsel, not law, and I do not consider myself 'associating' with them, but things can be misunderstood and every so often some 'zealous-for-no-rivalry' person overacts. I don't think it is very likely at all, but it is not impossible.

I really would keep attending, so long as I felt Jehovah's Witnesses were right. I would figure that I was just termporarily on the outs with them, it will blow over eventually, and that i can always request reinstatement from time to time. Eventually one would stick. In the meantime, I would not insist that they 'come around.'  I would be open to the possibility that I might have contributed to the mess.

To be sure, I would miss the association, and I would probably not attend so constantly as I do now, which is almost without miss, but I would keep coming to the only place I know of where the Bible is discussed accurately. Though the association might be closed off, the spiritual food would remain undiminished.

I know of one person who, while disfellowshipped, began attending meetings. Elders soon spoke with her, and she had  no idea that she could be reinstated. She just figured the chasm would stay open till Armagedon but in the meantime she would go where she knew there was accurate knowledge.

Why did she have no idea? Who knows? Such times are emotional. Maybe elders did not make it sufficiently clear. She is back now. Until recently, elders made a real effort to personally contact each DF one in their territory at least once a year. That's better 'service' than the typical non-Witness gets. Don't tell me they are not interested in people.

John, you are at a crossroads. Don't screw it up, becasue it will affect your family more than you. Don't regard it as a pissing contest between you and the GB. Tell your kids: 'yeah, I got in a tiff with the brothers, but it will smooth out in time,' If you are truly convinced that the GB should be removed, be like David, who knew he was to be king, but in the meantime would not lay a hand on 'Jehovah's annointed' and rebuked those who tried to make him go there.

4 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Ohhhh ... I am sorry I missed them!

 

It was not anywhere near so biting as you imagine. But I took back even that because it appeared he was on the verge of a breakdown.

I mean, c'mon! He called me a servant of the devil. I am expected to instantly coo love back to him?

And he appears to have caught the spirit of the good advice I finally did give (not that it was in direct response) when he said:

Anyway the sun is shining here and i will go into our garden and give thanks to God for His creation. I hope you all have a pleasant day. i wish you no harm. As i keep saying, we are all individuals and all have our own opinions. So be it. Only time will tell right from wrong.  

Good. He needs time to cool down. So do I, perhaps. I don't disagree with those final words at all. Maybe he is even on to something. Because the sun sure isn't shining here as I look out my window.

24 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

Sadly, there is no crackers or chips for polly here.

I have changed the remarks I left just prior to Polly.

2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

This is how they keep things quiet, because brothers and sisters are frightened to talk about anything...  You have to be there in person to fully understand how frightened the congregation members are of the Elders. There are so many things that you just cannot talk about. And the meetings are fully controlled. the Watchtower Study is controlled, so that brothers and sisters only answer the question put in the paragraphs. And no one is allowed to ask question, it's just parrot fashion, read a paragraph then give correct answers. Then move on, next paragraph.... 

John, I think you are in some danger of losing it. Take some time off. Seriously. I am not out to get you. I have just  pushed back at some of your charges.

You initially represented yourself as about to embark on a quest to find just what was the truth, or something to that effect - I forget the exact wording. The way you have conducted yourself here would indicate you were never in the slightest doubt of it. Go off on your quest if you are going to.

Sit silently in the Hall if it helps you in any way, but it sounds to me like you have absolutely writen that option off and I do not know how you can take umbridge at "so and so is no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses." Are you? Sounds like a good call, to me. 

Either make your peace with JWs are they are represented on move on. Don't stay here, at least not for now. You are working yourself into a lather.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

@TrueTomHarley  I'll go further and repeat, i think you are a servant of the devil

16 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Is @JOHN BUTLER one of those so misled?  I was extending an olive branch. Really. You have a funny way of doing it. Very slyly suggesting that I'm 'misled'. 

 

What - are you nuts? You take offense that I suggest you were misled? Clearly you say the same of me. In fact for the most part, you go well beyond misled. You paint me as a liar.

For crying out loud, John, I was extending an olive branch. it is not the first time I have done it. Each time you hurl it back in my face.

I will just pick one item from you previous post:

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

So it is possible that many accusations have been 'lost' / hidden, deliberately destroyed. We will never know. 

This is so petulantly infantile that it is hard to countenance. Haul in the Presbyterians as well. Do they have 1 abuser per thousand? Or 999?

"We will never know."

If we cannot trust the Witness records, neither can we trust the Presbyterian records. You just don't like the former. It is no more complicated then that.

However, with Presbyterian records, there is added reason not to trust them. They don't have any! What - they would have us believe that no Presbyterian has ever molested a child? Haul them all in here! Put the screws to them!

"Raise your eyes to the heavens and count the stars. They are all populated by perverts. Pray that Elon Musk find success in his mission so that we can go up there and punish the residents among them if we find any are Jehovah's Witnesses.."

3 hours ago, Anna said:

Good point

Not only is it a good point, but I am beginning to be frustrated that it is not made more often, and I don't mean by people here. People of my age saw it all unfold, but people younger than me did not. When those who hate the Witness organization catch the ear of the inexperienced (or gullible) ones, they get some of them believing that the very purpose of the list is to lovingly nurture pedophiles and protect them from the elements so that they may grow strong. Is @JOHN BUTLER one of those so misled? Complicating matters is that he is a victim of child abuse himself  (and is quite brave to be so forthcoming) and if one is a victim of anything traumatic, it leaves a gut response that often overpowers any other consideration. 

John thinks I have been rough with him, and if I have, I will apologize in a heartbeat. It is nothing personal. Personally, perhaps I would like him a great deal. But he has chosen to be the face of a position that he represents in a very pugnacious manner. Sometimes faces are pounded in that way. It happens to me, too. It is nothing personal with him.

Imagine! Insisting as he has that the present GB members be disfellowshipped! And what bad thing did they do? At most, they have mis-stepped in a rescue mission where they saved more people than anyone else - what with a prevention record 10 times that of others.

Still, they could have pointed this out. You know, I have been in this forum too long. Whereas there are many here who will tell them what to do at the drop of a pin, I have scrupulously not gone there, as it is not my place and I do not have the lines of feedback that they do. I am beginning to reassess that wise approach in favor of shooting my mouth off, but not in a way that is most commonly done. 

In the abstract, these allegations of child sexual abuse sound bad - really bad - and so there are loyal ones who get antsy and start to urge that the GB grovel before the greater world (whose prevention accomplishments they far outstrip) and beg for forgiveness. My 'advise' would be to keep doing what they are doing, but "do it more fully." Continue with the headship and spiritual feeding program that they now arrange, which is absolutely stellar, and supplement it with what loyal ones need to know in order to push back at the maligners. No Witness should be in any doubt what was the purpose for any 'list' nor should they be in any doubt that it was in the main successful, with a success rate 10-fold,  though it produced as a byproduct a few glitches in their reporting methods vs those of the less-successful world that opposers are seizing upon and trying to make the main event. They should not be able to do this, but they are in many instances.

Educate ones who need or want to know on the proactive purposes of any 'lists.' Educate them on the ten-fold success rate in prevention. Educate them on how anyone who was serious about keeping God's standards should have tracked their actual abuse rate so as to correct it, and nobody else did. They were all negligent. These are all things that the present organization could do, and in my opinion, they should. Allowing opposers to drive perception on this issue results in persons insensed that the Witness organization is not perfect!

Moreover (and this is simply floating an idea) what if those who had suffered abuse among the Witnesses were offered the same sort of support that hospital patients are with the hospital visitation services or even the HLCs? Maybe by extending their role into 'trauma teams' that help with any sort of trauma that our people get hit with. Populated with mature brothers and sisters of excellent listening skills, ones who have the reputation of empathy and who are not quickly put off by 'wild talk.' Imagine, if the organization that already has 90% less abuse victims due to its application of Bible principles took this additional proactive measure to assist 'carrying the burdens' of the victims it does have within its ranks. @JOHN BUTLER is not all wet in saying abuse victims can use added help. Having said that, there are many sorts of traumas wherein people can use help. It will be for someone else to figure what is a 'load' that all Christians must carry, and what is a 'burden' that each of us needs help with, and it is not always necessary or advisable to 'formalize' a basic Christian requirement, in this case, helping each other. Witness how people carry on here about formalizing the preaching work with 'goals' and 'pioneers.'

It is just floating an idea to be batted around by people with better input and in better position if they choose to. I can see potential challenges, not so much in its intent, but in its implementation. But if it helped some to heal and to not abandon spiritual pursuits while they were doing so, there might be a place for something along those lines. In various ways we come to the assistance of fellow Christians who are 'clobbered' such as with natural disaster relief teams. Is this another one?

Could you elucidate on these statements?

28 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

in addition to how the JWs have proven to be an inconvenience to the Kremlin weeks prior to the election.

and 

29 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

surprisingly the hundreds of protesters who were taken down by the Kremlin notice who the JWs are and how they endured in those days.

thx.

In field service I found myself working directly across the road from the Assembly Hall during an assembly. What are the chances?

Now, I am always on the lookout for something quirky to say so as the break the ice. An idea occurred to me as I approached a man in his garage. I thumbed behind me and said: “Man, the talks are so boring in there I just had to take a break and come talk to you - you know how religion is!”

Of course, I didn’t leave it there. I registered the impression made and soon added that I just threw that in for his sake – I didn’t really believe it. Though in SOME cases…. Well, no – not usually in the Assembly Hall. It can be the case in a Kingdom Hall, but not usually at the larger gatherings and practically never at the Regionals.

There is a chance – one must always consider – that a householder will quickly close the door and thereafter repeat to others your final and only words – “he said his meetings are dull.” No matter. This fellow will say bad things about us, anyway. Might as well give him an accurate statement to relate.

It is the season of the Memorial invitations, which are very brief. Big event – we’re inviting people – Memorial of Christ’s death – we do it every year. In closing I mention I have a cool video that explains everything in just over a minute, or I can explain it myself and that will take 45 minutes and which works best for him? But I don’t twist arms and it is always clear there is a third option, to pass on both, which most people take.

Our Assembly Hall is unusual in that it is on a residential road, which has only become more so since we built it. Moreover, though it is a network of roads, it is essentially a cul-de-sac. So there has long been a certain tension simply because of the traffic generated.

To several I explained before I left: “Actually, just so you know – I really do go there, and – it is a standard announcement at every meeting that “we have neighbors and they have kids, so make sure to observe the 30MPH speed limit” so whatever speeders there are are the neighbors and not us. One woman was very gracious and said ‘I’m sure that’s true.’

They are only going to get more neighbors. At the end of their cul-de-sac network is a new tract of over 100 homes being built. That is in addition to the Ryan homes on the right before one reaches the Assembly Hall. That was cornfield when we moved in, and later we found out that Kodak bought it as a buffer to their property so we thought we would never see anything but corn or landscaping.

We turned out to be false prophets on that one, didn’t we?

On 3/17/2018 at 1:52 AM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

In my considered opinion, those that lose a war should be MADE responsible for clearing the mine fields.

 

Yes!!! Fight ANOTHER war to MAKE them do it! (I don't think so)

Didn't America, chastened by WWI, make a determined effort to rebuild those defeated after WWII, especially Japan, so that the defeated did not, after another 20 years, roll into WWIII?

A Vietnamese friend of mine recalled as a boy playing among the corpses. Vietnamese had known nothing but war and adjusted more quickly than American soldiers, who were thrown in there just out of high school and saw heads, arms, legs & torsos flying about everywhere and went nuts - some of them.

36 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

the news about more investigations

If there are to be other ARC type hearings, when all is said and done it will boil down into two camps:

Those who are primarily concerned with punishing it after it has happened, and have placed most of their eggs in that basket.

And those who are primarily concerned that it does not happen in the first place, and have placed most of their eggs in that basket.

It will be: securning the barn door after the cows have fled, or impeding them from fleeing in the first place. Nobody is going to have a perfect record - not so long as we are talking humans,

27 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Once again a mis-quote. I didn't say that I 'honestly don't know anything', i said, 'I honestly don't know the truth about anything'.  There is a very big difference.

 

Forgive me for this. Is wasn't a mis-quote on my part, but it was deliberate. It somehow struck me as more appropriate. If you hurl about the outlandish things you hurl, and show yourself impervious to any counter-argument, you must expect feedback like this.

You demand commentary from me but you show no sign of listening to it. So I must get to it when I get to it, and it will not always be specifically in answer to you. I already have addressed several aspects, both here and on the other thread.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Try just for once to see the Child Abuse within JW Org, from God's viewpoint.

I don't have to. You have made it quite clear that you know what it is -  as though you had climbed up there in his throne with him - and I can just take your word for it.

On legal matters, you have my reply, and then you immediately carry on as though you had not read it, asking me for a tactical play by play - somehow assuming that I would know it.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

One other thing i want to look into is that the GB at one time changed their idea

They change their ideas all the time about many things and have never said otherwise. What do you think "tacking" is?

38 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Remember i have stated on my own FB page that i honestly don't know the truth about anything anymore

For someone who honestly doesn't know anything, you certainly are sure that the answer to to DF the GB.

4 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

As for the prevention rate, even with facts before them, they will ignore it sadly

Thank you, SM. I do what I think you are doing as well.

When I answer @JOHN BUTLER, I am not really speaking to him (I did at first), because he has demonstrated that he is inflexible in his opinion. He has, as one friend put it, a mind of concrete - all mixed up and firmly set.

So when I address him I am not addressing him but the audience beyond him, which I don't think is particularly large. And I am honing my own remarks for repetition at a later time to ones that are - where it will do more good, and encouraging others to do the same.

We will lose the battle, ultimately, because Christ said they will 'lyingly say every wicked thing about you' and 'if they persecuted me, they will persecute you.' But we fight back anyway and package the truth as cogently as we can "for a witness to them."

It is like Mark Sanderson said with regard to the Russian ban. We got creamed in that courtroom and yet he gushed afterward on about 'the wonderful witness' given. Is he for real? Yes, because there is no question that Christians are going to lose the war in this system of things. What you want to do is to draw honest - hearted people so that they can see what is going on and take action themselves.

The enemies in Russia wanted to snuff us out quietly. The Governing Body did not permit that to happen. They made sure, if it was to be done, it would be done with huge publicity. It is like Paul saying  "This thing has not been done in a corner," and on that account confidently addressing honest hearted ones: "I know you believe."

It will work out this way with the child sexual abuse "every wicked sort of thing" allegations, too. Though more sordid on the 'every sort of wicked thing' scale,. It will work out "for a witness" to honest hearted ones, once the issue is framed correctly, and I do not think this has yet been done. But it will be.

Meanwhile, you are assisting in that goal. It is a good thing for you to be weighing in on this, showing how child sexual abuse is everywhere, often in far worse forms than anything discussed here, but is most vehemently condemned only when it is associated with religion. 

12 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

@TrueTomHarley So you didn't want to answer my question ? 

Yes, you know, I do.

It has been answered many times before and the answer is simply ignored, because the answer requires some thought to process and single-issue people have usually lost that ability. They have laid hold of a "gotcha" question and when they die, it is in their wills form it to be inscribed on their gravemarkers.

However, let us answer the question from a fresh angle.

There is a reason that Jehovah's Witnesses took some 50 cases to the U.S. Supreme Court, won most of them, and are universally given credit for thereby defining human rights for everybody. It is because they did not say to all the lower courts, judges, and lawyers: "Yes, boss...whatever you say." They sensed a deep injustice, refused to go along with it, dragged it into the Supreme Court, where higher and smarter and more impartial judges agreed with them.

I did not participate overmuch in discussion of legal tactics because should I be hauled into the courts someday for something or other, I plan to hire an attorney. The reason I plan to hire an attorney is because I know the law is absurdly complex and I do not trust the impartiality of my prosecutor and not necessarily even the judge. If I was arguing my case before the 600 law system of ancient Israel, I would not hire an attorney. But if I am arguing my case before the 2,000,000 law system of today, I will.

Therefore the proper response to criticism of this or that legal tactic of Witness attorneys is to blow it off the indulgence of hot air windbags. I will accept their criticisms when I know that they are capable enough in the law to represent themselves in court, and plan to do just that, rather than hire an attorney. Otherwise, I figure they are just whiners, largely uninformed, trying to push a favored point of view.

John would sigh and swoon over the blessings and final truth-finding abiltiy of the human justice system. Is he for real? Especially in view of the Salon report which shows the human justice system routinely screws up on this favorite (and only) cause of his.

https://www.salon.com/2016/12/11/custody-in-crisis-how-family-courts-nationwide-put-children-in-danger/

Is anyone other than John so naive as to think that there is nothing but joy to be found in the endless stream of lawyers being cranked out of law school who will go on to sue the pants off of everyone and commandeer one third (at least) of the proceeds? What do they do with it? Does anyone think that when the Boy Scouts were sued in Portland around 2010 for child sex abuse and the resulting verdict was said to be the largest ever awarded to a single victim, the legal team pumps the proceeds, after expenses, into anti-child abuse causes - maybe even into the Boy Scouts themselves with the stipulation it be used just for that purpose? The head lawyer said something to the effect of 'the Boy Scouts have undertaken a noble task in working with children and it is his sincere hope that the award will impress upon them the need to do it better.' Does anyone think that he is not lying through his teeth? Has nobody ever read a John Grisholm novel?

In my area there are non-stop ads from a team of attorneys featuring people who look like glamorous movie stars that have never seen a day's suffering in their lives. 'So and so' got me 3 million dollars, 12 times what the insurance company offered!' they say. One person said 35 times . I looked into the case. The defendent's attorney had actually dragged his feet and opposed this process. He introduced some legal "trick." I was outraged!!!  The lying sonuva you-know-what! When I heard the 35 times verdict, I rejoiced that justice had been served!!!

Then I opened my adjusted premium bill.

No. It is as Forest Gump said or would have said had he thought of it: "Lawyers is as lawyers does." I don't weigh in on their tactics. I realize they are operating in a fantastically complex and lucrative area mostly of their own making, and often made for just that reason.

Since child sexual abuse is endemic human society and everyone is suing everyone else in an effort to stop it, eventually millions of dollars will transfer in all directions and everything will be as it was in the first place - and child sexual abuse will still be endemic - with the exception of the lawyers who will have scored a significant financial windfall.

As I said on the other thread, there may be other hearings like those of the ARC and my instinct is to say BRING THEM ON! Let each one firmly establish what the Australian one did - that Jehovah's Witnesses have a child sexual abuse prevention rate ten times more successful than the non-Witness world and that therefore only a friend of child abuse would oppose them.

If need be, let the world divide into two camps: those who are outraged because for a given school shooting, the outcome was not "handled properly" - the grief counselors did not say the right things, - and those who would recognize the value of a school that takes actions so that shootings do not happen in the first place, and therefore almost never has to call up the grief counselors. Sometimes you almost think the first camp is driven by the grief counselors themselves who want to stay employed. - after all, their college grief counselor training put them tens of thousands of dollars into debt.

@JOHN BUTLER, where you are going has been gone many times before on this forum. I have taken part in it there. Look it up.

I don't want to do old forever. Your question has been addressed many times over. And you and your new chums simply ignore the answer and ask your question again.

I just brought up something new. Why do you not address it?  But if you do not want to, take note of the only other NEW thought here, and becasue it is new it bears repeating. 

If you work to oppose the one organization that has a child sexual abuse prevention rate ten times that of the overall population, how are you not acting as a friend of child abuse?

@JOHN BUTLER     What are your thoughts on Luke 2:41-50?

Now his parents were accustomed to go from year to year to Jerusalem for the festival of the Passover.i ⁴²  And when he was 12 years old, they went up according to the custom of the festival.j ⁴³  When the days of the festival were over and they were returning, the boy Jesus remained behind in Jerusalem, and his parents did not notice it. ⁴⁴  Assuming that he was in the group traveling together, they went a day’s journey and then began to search for him among the relatives and acquaintances.⁴⁵  But not finding him, they returned to Jerusalem and made a diligent search for him. ⁴⁶  Well, after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers and listening to them and asking them questions.⁴⁷  But all those listening to him were in constant amazement at his understanding and his answers.k ⁴⁸  Now when his parents saw him, they were astounded, and his mother said to him: “Child, why did you treat us this way? Here your father and I have been frantically looking for you.” ⁴⁹  But he said to them: “Why were you looking for me? Did you not know that I must be in the house of my Father?”l ⁵⁰  However, they did not understand what he was saying to them.

I think you will find that all verses are from the NWT.

16 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

And they have been completely zip-lipped with their own members--refusing to be transparent about this ongoing problem. JWs are owed transparency on this matter. It's the least they could do.

I am beginning to come around to NB's point of view. 

They DO owe us more.

If you drill into the data (and this is discussed on the other thread - opposers have seen fit to start not just one, but TWO, simultaneous threads - it becomes evident that Jehovah's Witnesses have a greater prevention rate of child sexual abuse ten-fold over that of anyone else!

Imagine. Ten times the success rate of others! THIS is the fact that should be highlighted for members that need or want to know and in not doing this they are being let down. 

They are letting the enemies frame the entire argument. They should not do this.

Now - techically it is inaccurate to say they have ten times the success rate of prevention than anyone else. They have ten times the success rate of the general population. Who is to say how they stack up to the Baptists or the Adventists or the atheists or the - anyone? There is no way to tell, because nobody else dared touch these figures. Obviously chlld sexual abuse occurs everywhere - just tune in the TV news to convince yourself - but nobody else cared or dared to look into their own membership with a view of uncovering and disciplining the evil actions within their own organization!

Thus whenever anyone else is charged with child sexual abuse, their rellgion is never a factor - it is never reported (unless they are clergy)The Witness organization fails its members by not pointing this out. How did there come to be a "pedophile list" in the first place? It is a consequence of internal church disciple so as to present to God a clean people that the Bible says he demands. EVERYONE should have done this and NOBODY did. THAT is the fact that should be highlighted endlessly.

By not doing this, they have reduced good solid loyal members to saying: "well - we don't like child sexual abuse either - really, we don't." That is why I appreciate @AllenSmith, abrasive though he is. He does not fall into this trap. He does not let those who hate Jehovah's Witnesses assume the higher moral ground. He tirelessly points out why they do not deserve it. Every once in a while he goes too far and he is tossed out on his ear. (though I have never heard of this happening to his opponents who can be equally outlandish) But he dusts himself off, alters the spelling of his name, and rejoins the fray.

Bethel should not let the haters of Christian organization frame their 'reality' in preferance of the one which is far more important. Why are they doing it? My guess is that they are like deer caught in the headlights. They are decent, honest men - not oily manipulators - and they are dumbfounded that a deed with such good motive should be portrayed as so foul.

What are they guilty of anyway? There is a reason for the expression "skeletons in the closet." It is the universal human instinct to keep them there. They were slow to realize that the new imperitive is to stampede them through Dodge City. They have never said members should not go to outside authorities should they become aware of abuse. It is at most presiding over a culture in which people are reluctant to air dirty laundry in public because they try to represent something very high and they are loathe to sully it by advertizing when they contrary conduct in their midst. These days elders positively urge families to report to authorities when they come across an instance of it only to find not everyone want to be on the 11 News as the home of Today's Pervert. If it is not mandated by law, you cannot make them, nor can you go over their head and do it yourself. This is why Bro Jackson pleaded to make it mandatory accorss all territories because it would "make out job so much easier."

They have to deal with what really is the smaller picture, which is being done, while they steadfasting make sure the greater picture is in sharp focus: a prevention rate that is ten times that of the general population.

Seen in this light, if there are to be more inquiries in other countries, parallel to what the ARC has done, and those who hate Witnesses are wetting themselves in anticipation, I say Bring It On! 

Let each one of them establish what the ARC did - that Jehovah's Witnesses are head and shoulders above others in preventing child sexual abuse. Let the sole victory of the opposers be to say: "Well - well - well, they're not perfect, are they?"

1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:

There is some stuff that the mainstream news and media isn't telling the people nor made public for such stories of child abuse deem far too brutal and explicit to some, perhaps far more unhinged compared to what is going on in religious

The authorities who must view child porn in the course of doing their jobs liken it to Medusa: "One look and you turn to stone"

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

you've come back to this stupid stupid idea that JW Org is ok because it does not have AS MUCH Child Abuse as other organizations

Now you've got it!  It's doing better than anyone else.  How can that be spun as a bad thing?

The facts are very simple. It was not the ARC's mission, but evidence was uncovered to show JW's cut child abuse by 90% overr the general population.

@JOHN BUTLER does not care about this! He insists that attention be drawn elsewhere.

How can be not be a friend of child sexual abuse?  (Granted that he has suffered it, and of course that calls for empathy. But it doesn't necessitate trashing common sense and it doesn't justify 'slash and burn' toward the people with the best record)

6 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I laughed, sorry, when i read, 'I'm writing a book'. That always hits a sour note with me, but maybe I'm misjudging you. So why are you 'writing a book'... Most people write books to make themselves money or to gain fame. 

 

It is amazing! I can’t sneak anything past you. You have hit the nail on the head! I am writing a book because I want to be

F. A. M. O. U. S ! ! !

@JW Insider,!!! Run to the art room and fetch me a picture of a brother with puffed out chest thumbing to to the yacht and mansion behind him and the piles of MONEY (but no bikini-clad woman, for this IS a brother and we ARE talking a family publication.

I want that brother to be   ME!!! 

Swimming Pools!

Movie stars!

Sheesh. I’m writing a book for the same reason anyone writes a book – because I have a story to tell. Have you ever been to a library? There are a lot of them in there. I want to put one there as well.

6 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

JW cases will only be known once they are made known to the public.

This is true with anyone! What is wrong with you? 

There has never been any question from the ARC or anyone else that they were getting the right numbers. The only reason they have any numbers at all is because Jehovah’s Witnesses track wrongdoing so as to punish it and warn others as necessary. No other faith even attempts to ensure that members should apply what they learn!! No one else goes there.

6 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Do you worship them that much ?  

Jehovah’s Witnesses worship the Governing Body in the same sense that passengers on a plane worship the pilot when they refrain from kicking in the cockpit door to and grabbing the controls. This is not hard to understand to anyone who has not mentally made himself a ten-year-old!!

It is like when the reporters ask Tillerson "Did you call the President a moron??!!!" and he says "I'm not going to dignify that question with an answer" because he knows that if he says no, they will keep pressing him until he says yes, and if he says yes, they will run off with what they think is the story of the century!!!  even though people routinely call each other morons - whether seriously or in jest, and it means nothing!!

"Worship the Governing Body" my foot!! I mean, there is only so much you can do with a person determined to be stupid!!

It gets worse.

Punishment is fine – for child rapists no punishment is too great, but prevention is obviously the higher priority. It looks like every tenth person on the planet is a pedophile, so punishment, even when you do it right, only goes so far in solving the problem. And Jehovah's Witnessed DO punish. Quite severely when called for. But their way doesn't dovetail with the world's preferred way and THAT is what is being resolved. It is also the ONLY CONCERN John has!

I am so done with this fellow! He does not care about prevention – he has made the point over and over again. He only cares about shaming people and revenge! (on Witnesses) He wants to punish it after it happens but does not seem to care about if it happens in the first place!!!

He wants revenge! He wants to shame people! He could care less about stopping child sexual abuse!! That's not his thing.

Enough!

I am willing to disobey counsel in certain instances and engage with those who have fallen under the spell of single-issue fanatics, even if some of them also embrace apostacy.

But there is no way I am going to engage with one who would encourage pedophiles!!! He sees how it is being stopped to a ten-fold degree and it doesn't interest him at all!!!