TrueTomHarley

7 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

We are NOT here to approve of God, we are here to be approved by God

Strictly speaking, we are not supposed to be here at all.

You know, as much as I think James is the plague personified, every once in a while he offers up an absolutely precious vignette of life.

Two years ago a report said:

“in family courts throughout the [United States], evidence that one of the parents is sexually or physically abusing a child is routinely rejected. Instead, perpetrators of abuse are often entrusted with visits or joint or sole custody of the children they abuse.”

Read it here:  https://www.salon.com/2016/12/11/custody-in-crisis-how-family-courts-nationwide-put-children-in-danger/

but don't read it unless you are prepared to get very sad and very angry

The point is that the ones you hang out with online will have you believe that "handling an child sexual abuse case properly" is key to protecting children. Read the report and you will read case after case where it turned out to be exactly the opposite - reporting it to the authorities led to more abuse of the child, sometimes at the cost of its life.

5 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Your GB it seems has no conscience or Godly devotion.

This accusation is too stupid to countenance. How can you be so dumb?

5 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

They are only interested in winning cases, not seeing justice from God's viewpoint

So you have put your trust in the human system of courts as the ones who see justice from God's viewpoint! Is your confidence in human justice as strong after reading how the family courts routinely screw up what is put in their lap?

One lesson to be learned is to value the conscience and godly devotion of the GB that has maintained an organization that is 90% less likely to originate cases of abuse that the courts may screw up when it is handed over to them. Bizarrely, you seem to not care at all about this. You seem to delight in the prospect of taking down the people who have ten times the success rate in prevent child sexual abuse in the first place. Seen in this light, it is YOU who are a friend of child sexual abuse. YOU malign the people who best prevent it in favor of a human justice system that may protect children after the event or may screw them up even worse.

Legal tactics and the court system have been discussed at length on other threads so I will not revisit them here. Go there and look them up. However, in a nutshell, might there be a reason that the Society has not quickly kowtowed to a given legal demand? I think you said it yourself:

5 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

As for legal matters, they can so easily be misused

They certainly have been previously - on a nationwide scale - as evidenced by the Salon article, despite the fact that you appear to have absolute confidence in them.

You are hanging out with single-issue people, and single-issue people of any stripe will distort your world view. Single-issue people usually become those who 'cannot see the forest for the trees.' You are particularly vulnerable to this (more on this later, perhaps) by reason of being an abuse victim yourself.

Because we are in the last days (I fear you are already walking back on this) there are literally thousands of atrocities to choose from and each of them generates its own batch of single-issue people - usually the ones who have suffered acutely due to that issue. To focus on one so intently so as not to appreciate anything else will only mess you up.

I am writing a book on the persecution of our brothers in Russia. The media is rabid against Witnesses there, and reports against them all the time. One typical article slanders them non-stop, as low beings who “wet in the toilet,” would “clog your brains,” do “dark things through Jehovah,” and as to your money, they would have you “give the last.” The Supreme Court has ruled that parents can be stripped of parental rights for involvement of children in the sect. 79% of all Russians agree with this. (it has not been reported as happening yet, but the legalities are in place)  Apostates were very active as prosecution witnesses, in full knowledge that they might be sending family members to jail, and certainly their former friends. This, even though pedophile accusations are not at all a concern over there - they have plenty of others.

https://og.ru/society/2017/10/23/92255   (use AI to translate)    and

http://www2.stetson.edu/~psteeves/relnews/171204d.html

My point is that you, over time, will come to agree with them fully. We are who we hang out with. You say you are conducting a fine investigation as to who really has the truth. I would say to wrap that up quickly if you can because the time's they are a 'changing.

You have spoken of the pain of abuse, of how current victims might be helped, and how you prayed and got nothing. These are worthwhile points. If you can avoid for a time rolling with the pigs who would accuse the GB of sponsoring child sexual abuse even though they prevent it to a degree ten times better than your current heroes, I will address those things.

If you cannot, I will throw up my hands and say he has chosen his new family - he is fully vested. He has volunteered to be a lieutenant of the army of kings of the earth attacking with the beast. He is a 'reformer' and since they will not reform on his terms, he will see them destroyed. Time is not unlimited. No sense in spending time trying to dislodge his grip, for he just tightens it further.

2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

You seem not to read what i write anyway, as i've given my position at this time in the above comment. But I'll copy and paste it here anyway..

 

I will get back to you on this when I get a little more time. I actually do like the way you 'man up' and take responsibility for your action - it commands a certain respect - even if I think it is unncecessary and unwise for you to take it in the first place, and I continue to recommend that you walk it back.

However, you actually did not answer my question. When there is the foretold attack upon God's people, described in Revelation, do you think some will dismiss it as God using the nations to discipline his own people? Will you be among them?

If so, how will you spot the actual persecution when it comes? For you know there will always be something to point to. The perpetrators will not simply do it on the basis of being mean.

Do you think that when Revelation 19:19 takes place -

"And I saw the wild beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the one seated on the horse and against his army.

people online will say:

2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

And so it may just be that God is using or allowing people of 'the world' to punish or straighten out his chosen people of this day.

Do you really think the wild beast and the kings of the earth and their armies will say: "We hate God"? 

No. They will say:

"We love God. And even where we don't, we love people's right to worship if they want. It's just that these JWs are doing it wrong and must be stopped."

If JWs are not the godly people who are "everywhere spoken against" (Acts 28) and who suffer people "lyingly saying every sort of wicked thing against them," who would you say is?

I think it is not a good time to bail. Contrary to what I charged, you have said you are not a fighter against God and you did not want to go out with a splash. Okay. I'll walk it back. @The Librarian tells me often enough that I can be obnoxious. Why should I not take correction from you also?

But where do you find yourself now? You have expressed a desire to continue to worship God. Are you getting fine reinforcement to do that at avoidjw.com, or wherever you visit online?

There was a study in the Sun not long ago that found nearly all teens were found to have the BHP chemicals of plastic in their systems, which mimic estrogen.

Should we be surprised at the explosion of transgender cases in the last 2 or 3 years? It has been found that transitioning such does not spare them from a 40% higher suicide rate than the general population.

And maybe even the explosion of homosexuality over the last few decades.

9 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

For I am not a fighter against God

Okay

9 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

i didn't need or want  any attention

Okay

9 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I do find it quite fully that no one is allowed to disagree with you though.

Now you've got it!

9 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I therefore presume you are an Elder or higher in the ranks.

Once again, you have nailed it. I am way way up there in the ranks and I neglect all my crucial responsibilities to spend oodles of time posting to malcontents on the net, some of whom are nincompoops. I am a veritable theocratic tweeting Trump - 

9 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Why shouldn't i presume as you and Allen have made so many presumptions about me

But @AllenSmith is even more lofty than me. I would not be shocked if he were the alter-online-ego of Bro Jackson, himself, working out his frustrations on a backwater internet channel that the most clean organization in the world is portrayed by the  ARC as among the foulest. To say nothing of the mysterious @Space Merchant.Where does he come from?

Come, come. This is the internet, the land of the liars. If you want people you can know and trust, go to a place where you can physically interact with them.

I think you are not being forthright either. You appear to have accepted the case 54 data that JW's have a better prevention record than anyone else. At any rate, you offer no pushback to it, though you do on other things. And ...

9 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I notice you mention 'the current Watchtower policy', but how many people have previously suffered, to have this now 'current W/T policy'

you acknowledge that the organization with the best record, though not perfect, is improving. So NOW is the time you decide that it is too foul a place in which to sully your  feet? There is more to you than meets the eye.

When God finds out about the few denarious' debt you will not forgive your fellow slave, what will he say about the 10,000 fold amount that you owe him?

Probably you have read the other threads and appreciated the significance of the 17 instances of Case 54 - that children in the JW environment appear to be ten times safer than in the overalll world. I have made that point. Others have, too.

To spotlight this is called "raising a straw man." It is raising a tangential argument and subsequently demolishing it in hopes that the halo effect will spill over and hide the main concern. Persons of critical thinking hate raising straw men. It is a major no-no. With regard to Jehovah’s Witnesses, they do not want the faith compared to other organizations, where it will be seen as ten times better. They want them compared to perfection, where it will be seen to fall short.

Will you really go livid at the organization that has a prevention rate ten times better? What will happen when you approach Jehovah and tell him you are 'in' only when there is perfection?

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

When a person leaves the Org, such as myself, they say person X is 'no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses'.

This happened because you were determined to go out with a splash, or someone talked you into doing it. It didn't have to be. You could have faded or simply desisted congregation activity.

You have let the liars frame your world for you. It is plain in every sentence you write. Ponder upon the JW record being ten times better than anyone else and then ask yourself - do you really want to hurl denunciations at it because it is not perfect. Hustle your rear end back to the Kingdom Hall and ask for readmiittance. It will not happen overnight, but it will reliably happen if you persist. It always does.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

And as I've shown in my comment above, this problem is not going away, so don't put your head in the sand and ignore it.

Possibly not. But there is no reason to be a 'fighter against God' with regard to it and oppose the organization with a prevention record second to none. 

As you will know if you read the report, the current Watchtower policy is that no child is required to face an abuser. And a child may, in relating things to those investigating allegations, have any support person present it wishes, male or female. And that - the elders are very insistant on pointing this out - any child, family member, or other person has every right to report to outside authorities, and that the elders will do it themselves where mandated.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I left the Org because I could not in my conscience try to encourage people to join an org that has a serious problem with Child Abuse

They do not.

Or rather, they do, but it is far less serious a problem than that of anyone else.

That is the significance of the data from Case 54.

12 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

My only concern is the Child Abuse in the Jehovah's Witnesses Organisation

That being the case,

On 2/13/2018 at 11:28 PM, Space Merchant said:

The ARC also acknowledged that between 2015 of August and 2017 of March, only 17 reports of child abuse emerged within the Watchtower group in Australia, two of which declined to report. 

 

This is by far the most significant fact to emerge from the ARC data. It is the one you should focus on.

How about this for a tee shirt?

10 minutes ago, Bible Speaks said:

Can’t see Our Lord Christ wearing a tee shirt ? 

If I was going to wear a tee shirt - and I have never worn any, even for Coke or Pepsi - it might be the former. I like it.

The trouble with wearing such Bible trivia, and this is only my opinion, is that it usually comes off as self-righteous. I even resisted wearing the badge cards between sessions at the convention for a time, though they are far more dignified, out of the same concern.

I got over it. I wear the card now. But it will be a cold day in hell (by anyone's definition of hell) before I wear a Memorial tee shirt.

On 3/12/2018 at 11:31 AM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Not a single word of objection was raised by the GB over the commercialization of Caleb and Sophia merchandise.

 

In fact, it was. It is contained in that article forbidding the use of copyrighted materials including artwork and logos, and the suggestion that Bethel may go after even friends who do this.

As I recall, nobody screamed louder about this than you.

As to the shirts themselves, I'm with @Steve Wilkinson. You will not see one at the Kingdom Hall. ideally none of our people will wear them in any setting. But any gift shop for any attraction features tons of such tacky fare, so time only will tell.

The cops found pictures of cats on my hard drive. I have been outed in the media. My life is so over!

There is another application of Matthew 20:1-15 - 'pay them each a denarious' - that has nothing to do with time spent in the Christain way, which I like as much, or even better.

It is: In any circumstance of life, you cut the best deal that you can and then you look ahead to the next deal You DO NOT look around, envious, at someone who may have gotten a better deal. Think of how much heartburn THAT would solve if we managed to internalize it.

Neither do you gripe, like the initial vineyard workers, that the 'master' was unfair. Life will be fair in the new system. It is not typically so today.

Maybe it is there in print somewhere. I haven't come across it. No matter. It is enough to stay within 'the pattern of healthful words' It is not necessary to but repeat the healthful words oneself.

4 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Joan Baez's song about the Mercedes Benz comes to mind.

Wasn't that Janet Joplin's? Did Joanie do it, too? or even write it for her?

Al Capp used to call her "Phony Joanie."

I think the exhange between master and 11th hour people serves as an exhortation to preach, even stepping it up wherever possible.

'Get out there and let them know they are hired. They won't know it otherwise.'

7 hours ago, JW Insider said:

In time, eight Jewish members of this congregation were inspired to produce an additional 27 books,

It must also be remembered that , following a thorough discussion of spiritual food, it always becomes a matter of what they ate.

1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Neither you or TTH live in a world of hard facts

Essentially, zeroing in on the 1006 from the group whose overall abuse-prevention record is 10 times better than the general population is securing the barn door after the cows have fled.

It was their job. It is not a worthless endeavor. Witnesses will learn from it themselves. But it pales in insignificance next to securing other barn doors so that their cows do not flee.

You would almost think from the way some carry on here, that a case of child sexual abuse "properly handled" means it did not happen.

It is like the team of grief counselors called in after a school shooting. Of course, it is nice that they are called in. But it would have been even nicer had the school shooting not taken place in the first place.

Therefore the transcending lesson to take away from this hearing is not the 1006 abuse victims whose cases were not handled properly in the eyes of Australian authorities. It is the 37,000 cases of abuse nationwide (in a single year) that would not have happened were greater society able to imitate the record of Jehovah's Witnesses.

8 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

it doesn't mean I haven't read and watched the same ARC proceedings.

He did, @Space Merchant You will have to back off on this one.

As soon as the janitor would unlock the doors each morning, he was there with an armload of pamphlets, saving seats for his friends, just like Witnesses do at the Regional.

There was a lot of boring stuff that had nothing to do with Witnesses and he slept through all that, but he came to when they got to the good part.

21 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

Here lies the problem, you are interested in math and how adding numbers and dividing by the number of people who are not jws.

Yes, because when you discuss groups of people digitally or on paper, they become numbers.

23 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

Instead of looking at how ANY child abuse case is handled within the org...That's the whole reason why the ARC investigated.

Yes, they are concerned with the smaller picture, not the greater overall one. I acknowledged that. 

Since there are no figures at all from any other denomination, we can conclude that their policies of child sexual abuse is defined by Sergeant Shultz: "I know nothiiinnnggggg!"

18 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

being called to the carpet is NOT being proactive. Again, it is only jws who believe that the ARC was a good thing for the wt. 

Let us look at this another way and appreciate what 'proactive' really is:

17 JW abuse incidents in the 17 months under consideration is one per month. Let us therefore call it 12, so as to equalize time periods with the other numbers considered. We have:

12 abuse incidents were reported among the 67,418 Witnesses in Australia during the same one-year time period that 41,621 abuse incidents were reported among the entire Australian population of 23, 968, 973.

If greater Australia experienced child sexual abuse in the same proportion that Jehovah's Witnesses did, it would have reported 4,266 incidences, not 41, 621. (Do the math, or find somebody who can)

That means there are 37,355 annual incidences of child sexual abuse that would not have occurred had the entire country been Jehovah's Witnesses.

The ARC focused on 1006 JW reports of abuse over a 60 year period. This was their job and they acted honorably. They were not able to look at any other denominations because, for whatever reason, none of them tracked abuse among their parishioners. The other 55 case studies the ARC examined are all institutions of some sort.

They could not be expected to focus on the 37,355 reports in one year. That was not their job. They focused on the 1006 reports over 60 years, which was their job.

However, if they were truly proactive, they would have focused on the 37,355 preventable abuses. They would have recommended that all persons in Australia become Jehovah's Witnesses.

This is because, expressed mathematically, we see that 

37,355 > 1006

It is even more lop-sided than that because the 37,355 is in a single year, and the 1006 is over 60 years.

How's that for proactive?

7 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

you are correct

You could have just left it there.

8 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

but it doesn't take the spotlight off of the wt

The spotlight is only on them because they were proactive enough to look into something everyone else ran away from. Other faiths did not know or want to know whether members actually applied Bible teachings or not. Through neglect of what turns out to be a most serious problem, they produced no record for the ARC or anyone else to hold hearings on.

The other case studies the ARC investigated (there were 57 altogether) were social or govenment institutions or schools, who tracked abuse incidents. Other religions did not touch such things.

The finding that should be spotlighted, though it was not because its mission was something else, is that children appear to be 10 times safer in the Witness community than in the general Austrailain popluation.