TrueTomHarley

I just got a call that @James Thomas Rook Jr.has been insulting God's organization again. He may have to learn the hard way.

6 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

6 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I can't tell what this is about. Can you explain?

TTH bashing???

Yikes! Could it be? Do I not have feelings?

1 hour ago, Jay Witness said:

Did the 1st century christians or apostles get degrees in the Christian ministry?

Show it to the householders. See it if sweeps them off their feet.

Ah, well. It is what it is. I think I got something or other years ago at the Pioneer School besides just the group photo, though I could be mistaken. I never it up on my office wall, though.

On 9/24/2017 at 4:49 AM, JW Insider said:

she should know that Joseph Smith of Mormon fame also had his start in the Burned-over district.

I, who am from the area, have never heard this term. However, it IS true that the concluding speaker at a Syracuse District Convention several years back observed how everyone present had imitated Acts 28:12.

Putting into port at Syracuse, we remained there for three days; 

1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

It was just my stunned disbelief at your reasoning processes that prompted , as always, my response.

1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

YO MOMMA is SO FAT, she has lesser fat women in orbit around her !

How's that for someone's 'reasoning process?'

You know, I feel a little mean when I imply - make that 'say' - that Caleb and Sophia are more mature than you. I'm not a mean guy by nature, and I hesitate to do it.

There have been times when I have been very conciliatory and respectful of you - you know I have. If you have some crap in your background, I have even sought to 'feel your pain,' just like Bill Clinton.

It does no good. Your immediate response is some tirade as hateful as ever toward theocratic organization. So it must be, I guess. "Fire when you see the whites of his eyes and fire when you don't!"

What about sometimes just going to the door to meet and converse with people - and forget all about the kingdom? Is there ever a place for this? It was the conversation this morning in our car group.

Not as a regular thing. As part of a learning curve. Not all of the friends have 'people skills' yet they've volunteered for a work in which it is vital - or at least it makes the job go more smoothly.

Just visit to meet neighbors. If they ask why you've come, tell them you're a Witness but you aren't there to talk about that unless they want - 'My people skills aren't what they could be and I want to improve them' you could say.

2 hours ago, Anna said:

Yes it can have an impact. But we mustn't forget that demons too move with the times and adapt their methods. I doubt they would try to convince an atheist of their existence for example. In the "enlightened" western world, especially within more rational cultures the experience with demons like in Jesus' day is limited. Unless you're an Italian Catholic it appears. It's something that people like to get entertained by more than anything.

When I asked a Vietnamese publisher I knew well about demons in his home village, he answered matter-of-factly that they could be easily found outside the populated areas and they made a lot of trouble. I'm willing to guess that he is not nuts, because such reports are a dime a dozen in less developed places. 

Why do they not manifest themselves in the more educated areas? A perfectly reasonable explanation to me is that they deliberately lie low so that the educated people can continue to think themselves superior and look down upon the 'ignorant' and declare their 'education' is the be-all and the end-all. Is it that way? Dunno. But I see nothing absurd with it. The Devil wants to mislead. Why should he care how he does it? Why should he be expected to use the same tools everywhere?

Brother Smurf is giving the public talk tomorrow. I'm going to run these points by him and see what he thinks.

4 hours ago, Witness said:

In other words, you prefer your food served in regulated fashion; after all, you pay for it with your donations and dedication (surrendering your life) to the organization.

Well - I think that's a pretty harsh assessment. 

Look, what you appear to want me to weigh in on is a family feud. You claim to be one of the anointed and you are mad that the GB anointed are not the anointed ones I should be listening to - they are the anointed from the wrong side of the tracks.

I am not of the anointed. Therefore, if we stick with the model I think we both agree with, someone is going to be delivering spiritual food for me. If I have to choose, they win hands down, lady, not you.

8 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Your replies are in effect ..

" oh yeah?

 Oh Yeah?

 OH YEAH?

 OH YEAH?

 OH YEAH?

 OH YEAH? "

YEAH!

Moreover, except for one jab, the reply I made before that provoked a rebuke from you that I should 'grow up' was well-reasoned and respectful. So it must be the jab that made you mad, which was an observation of how our lovable cartoon characters, Caleb and Sophia, despite their tender years, still come off as more mature than you.

Do I back down from that assessment?

13 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I noticed that once again, AS ALWAYS ... you refused to address any actual issue I brought up, this time by devolving into an absurd extrapolation about the "12 dopes".

Actually, I think that is the answer.

I did start it as a joke, you are right. But I also recognized that, at its root, it was the answer. Jesus didn't do it. Judas stole from the money box. A simple account system would have caught him. Yet Jesus never did it.

Expanding, we have 1 Corinthians 6:2 

do you not know that the holy ones will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you not competent to try very trivial matters? Do you not know that we will judge angels? Then why not matters of this life?

If the holy ones back then were to be entrusted with our spiritual lives, were they incapable of handling 'unrighteous riches?'

Accounting methods are rather strict now in the congregations. Two brothers count all donations from the contribution box. Two sign off. It is all under the supervision of the Secretary. It is similar at the circuit level. Are we to imagine it disappears above the circuit level? What disappears is anyone feeling they have an obligation to report such things to you. In your case, I can easily understand it. If you twist undeniably good deeds to make them seem vile, exaggerate any missteps, and ignore any mitigating factors, and without exception impute bad motives, what would you do when you found they upgraded from Pepsident toothpaste to Crest?

Should they report? I guess you could make a case for it. But I think the greater case is for not doing it, in view of 1 Corinthians 6. It's not the exact same thing, but in principle it is.

What is public accounting? It is a requirement imposed by government upon public corporations. Does it work? It can be circumvented. A relative of mine works for a publicly traded company which recently bought another publicly traded company. His company is a very well known name, and the purchased company is well known to industry groups. It turns out that the purchased company managed to conceal billions of dollars of fraud, despite public accounting, and the buyer is now in danger of going under. (and the relative worries about his job)

In Rochester, Wegmans is the premiere company putting the city on the map. It replaces Kodak in that role. Arguably one might say Paychex instead of Wegmans, but I'll hang with Wegmans. People love Wegmans. It is Whole Foods where, if you plan, you can avoid spending your whole paycheck. (if you don't - watch out! - but with minimal fuss, you can) It has been called the best run grocer in the country and perhaps the world. There are 70-80 stores in the eastern U.S. Whoever does the ratings - is it Forbes? - consistently ranks it among the top ten best places to work in the entire country.

It is a private corporation and never reports to the public. Does that mean it keeps no accounts? No. It just doesn't feel the obligation to report to the rank and file.

The demand to render public accounting, to me, seems but a manifestation of another form of human self-rule - in particular, democracy. It is faith that the people should scrutinize every nickel spent and that is the only way to keep those running the show honest. As the examples above show, it is not necessarily a valid premise. It is easily circumvented.

I was joking when I said we could smell fraud when Anthony Morris upgrades to a bigger dorm room, but once again, there is truth to it. Let there be some evidence of chicanery before you assume your democratic method is the be-all and end-all. If they released financial reports they would have to add layers and layers of Bethel experts to defend themselves against countless people like you that simply want to take them down and use any possible pretext to do it. It would be rather like the Mueller investigation, which is the continuation of an effort that has lasted almost a year now to dig up evidence of wrongdoing with regard to the President and Russia. So far they have found none, but the mandate is unlimited and is not confined to Russia, (this is my understanding, but I could be wrong) Since the POTUS is human, they will certainly find something in time, and will attempt to use it to take him down - which is the sole object in the first place. Should Bethel do the same for its enemies? They just want to take it down.

The line that invariably gets the largest applause at the Regional Convention is: "Would you like to convey your greetings to Bethel?" It is obvious why that is. People look around them and see evidence everywhere that whatever donations they have made are being spent wisely. The many examples referred to in the previous post prove that to them. They don't feel the need to monitor Bethel for crooks and they are confident that, should crooks appear, the overall upright character of the organization will handle it.

1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Oh, and TTH .....

GROW UP

You're joking!!

if anyone but you said this to me, I would take it to heart. I might not do it, but I would take it to heart.

But YOU telling someone to grow up???

1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

It stuns me but not surprises me that you are comfortable with anonymous men in the upper echelons, handling perhaps 60 million dollars a month, and having total faith that NOBODY is skimming.  

FACTS!! EVIDENCE! THAT’S WHAT I WANT TO SEE!!

FACTS! DOES ANYBODY IN THE WHOLE WIDE WORLD KNOW WHAT FACTS ARE EXCEPT ME?

(WHERE HAVE I HEARD THIS RANT BEFORE?)

EVIDENCE OF WRONGDOING – THAT’S WHAT I NEED TO SEE!!!

WHEN ANTHONY MORRIS UPGRADES TO A BIGGER DORM ROOM, THEN I WILL KNOW THE LIARS ARE ASCONDING WITH THE DOUGH!!!

Okay, that was tongue in cheek. The following is not. Not only is your demand brilliant and justified beyond belief – if the 12 dopes had followed it back in the day all history would be different and we’d be in paradise now!

Judas was stealing from the box. Why didn’t Jesus demand an account? The twelve were taking in the funds of the lowly and there was never an account!!!

...NOT ONCE

…EVER!

YOU HEARD ME – EVER!!!!

IT’S OUTRAGEOUS!!!

1 hour ago, Gone Fishing said:

“This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says: ‘In that day thoughts will come into your heart, and you will devise an evil plan. 11 You will say: “I will invade the land of unprotected settlements. I will come against those living in security, without disturbance, all of them living in settlements unprotected by walls, bars, or gates.” 12 It will be to take much spoil and plunder, to attack the devastated places that are now inhabited and a people regathered from the nations, who are accumulating wealth and property, those who are living in the center of the earth.

I've never thought of the verse that way. I like that take.

They may no longer do anti-types at Bethel, having had too many blow up in their face, but that doesn't mean I don't do them. Ralph Kramden, the hefty loud-mouthed bus driver of the 'Honeymooners' TV show, is the antitypical Nebuchadnezzar.

Each show he began by blustering. Each show he was totally humiliated. Each show he was contrite at the end. And each new show he totally forgot the lessons learned from the one before. So it is with Nebuchadnezzar.

And what is it with Nebuchadnezzar and the magic-practicing priests? He picks a fight with them right out the gate in chapter 2 of Daniel:

49 minutes ago, Anna said:

Reminds me of Joseph Smith translating the golden tablets

Hey lady, what is it with you and those Mormons?

12 hours ago, Witness said:

The “good news” will not reach all of “Israel” before the son of Man comes; I believe he will see that it is taken care of without the need of a showy display.   Matt 10:23;28:20; Rom 9:6; 1 Pet 2:5,9,10; Isa 10:17-23; Matt 24:30,31; Rev 7:4

32 minutes ago, Witness said:

When you read the scriptures, let me know.

I'm sorry, @Witness, I just can't do it. Count it as my weakness if you must. I just can't suffer you clobbering me with scriptures that do nothing but continue your harangues. The Governing Body can hardly be accused of subtlety, but even they do not punctuate every sentence with myriad scriptures. They instead recommend daily Bible reading, then they assume the familiarity that comes therefrom and do not have to quote a Bible verse every time they tie their shoe.

We have a verse heading your list that we won't get done before the end comes, which you appear to take to mean we should therefore do nothing. Then there are some verses to advance your constant complaint that the bad annointed ones have wrestled the teaching spotlight away from you and the other good annointed ones. I just can't suffer through it. Sorry.

1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I see by that comment that billions of dollars in contributed money to the Society, with ABSOLUTELY NO ACCOUNTING WHATSOEVER to the contributors is agreeable to you.

The "accounting" is the Kingdom Halls and Assembly Halls sprouting up like mushrooms in areas that can ill-afford them.

The "accounting" is the disaster relief that gets the job done while many outsiders are bumping into one another like Keystone Cops.

The "accounting" is the annual convention held some 200 times around the globe, supplemented by every means of video technology, and other televised venues.

The "accounting" is the Bible translation and distribution so that the poor family head in the Congo can have a Bible even for free, rather than be stuck with a 200 year old turkey of a translation that he cannot afford because nobody of the religious world dreams it possible to circumvent the commercial world's distribution system.

The "accounting" is the lovable childlike cartoon characters Caleb and Sophia who nonetheless come off as more mature than you.

1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I scare a lot of people, TTH ... but YOU are one REALLY scary Dude.

That even scares ME ... that someone can even THINK like that.

What scares me is that you can see all this and still scream that someone is picking your pocket.

43 minutes ago, Anna said:

 

12 hours ago, Witness said:

It is an unrealistic perception to believe God must choose man’s way to get his will done. 

 

That's why Jesus told his disciples to sit on their rear ends. Anything they might do would be 'man's way,' they being men.

6 minutes ago, Witness said:

Did you read the scriptures I attached (one has been repaired) or do they bore you?

Do you mean the misapplied ones?

5 hours ago, Witness said:

The “good news” will not reach all of “Israel” before the son of Man comes; I believe he will see that it is taken care of without the need of a showy display.

What is this?   

'If it requires us to do any more than come out of our Quonset hut, it is God's problem.'

5 hours ago, Witness said:

The GB reside in comfort, their physical needs are met.  Why are they any more worthy than anyone else, to receive physical comfort?

Because you must not muzzle the ox while it is threshing.

I don't use the expression "bitter apostate." It seems to me a stereotype which does not always hold true. But  sometimes it is exactly the proper expression.

10 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

with the recent multiple Earthquake's and Hurricane's devastations .... soon enough ... we will all know.

That "Rainy Day" of widespread catastrophe is HERE, NOW!

About a year from now ... WE WILL ALL KNOW.

So. You are reduced to saying: "Just you wait, Henry Higgins, just you wait." They have knocked it out of the park thus far on disaster relief. 'Yeah, (mutter mutter) but surely this new tough pitcher will strike them out'

They know it is hopelessly out of the reach of many third world congregations to afford their own Kingdom Hall, and they are thrilled to know their funds are spent thereby. Even @James Thomas Rook Jr., who rails about giving up local control of his money, probably does not begrudge that.

10 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Of course not ... I do not begrudge that, as some Bethel Branch offices are 100% subsidized, although it has never been explained or accounted for above the level of the "Circuit Assembly".

My mistake. It appears that you do begrudge it.

3 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

what you are failing to grasp is that while YOU say, and they say they do not ask for money, I have just shown you that they DO in fact ask for money

Moreover, the confidential letter that you quote as though experiencing sexual climax does no more than expand on the consideration already announced publicly. Witnesses are well used to hearing about how that this or that circuit expense will be met if everyone contributes such and such an amount. This is always followed by the clarification that it is not suggested each member pony up that amount, but rather that the congregation in aggregate do so.

What your 'secret letter' reveals is that even that fair policy is not held fast to. Elders know their flock. A poor congregation can lessen their share. A well-off congregation can increase it. Ours increases it regularly because @The Librariantells them I make a bundle off my books, the meddling hen. But others lessen theirs.

Any Witness stumbling across your coup de grace will come away with increased respect for Bethel's consideration. They will also not be surprised. For decades they have heard about their surpluses benefiting other lands with deficits. They know it is hopelessly out of the reach of many third world congregations to afford their own Kingdom Hall, and they are thrilled to know their funds are spent thereby. Even @James Thomas Rook Jr., who rails about giving up local control of his money, probably does not begrudge that. 

You consistently try to advance the notion that Witnesses are being fleeced by their organization. You consistently have your ears pasted back. In the end you are reduced to saying 'well - you have your opinion. I have mine.' It gets old.

6 minutes ago, Nana Fofana said:

Very cool!  Is it worth reading do you think? 

Yes. But it is like most classics - very slow and cumbersome in its developing, but all the more gripping when it gets to action and emotional pull on that account. I didn't actually 'read' it. I listened to it via Books on Tape while working a hum-drum job.

An entire chapter, the 3rd I think, is dedicated to the architectural details of Paris during that time. Or maybe it is just the architectural details of that church - I forget which.

28 minutes ago, Nana Fofana said:

Without a doubt, there is much more to Paris than meets the eye.

I liked "The Hunchback of Notre Dame" where Hugo explained that the number of floors beneath the surface of the church was roughly the same as those above.

54 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

quit making excuses, your cognitive dissonance is showing. 

And please do not quote this cognitive dissonance nonsense, for it is no more than:

'You do not agree with me. Therefore you must be suffering massive cognitive dissonance.'