TrueTomHarley

4 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

They're far from Gnosticism. Gnosticism in a way parallels that of New Ageism.

They’re not gnostic. They have no special secret source of knowledge. However, the Bible itself speaks to them in a way in does not speak to most. That’s not gnostic, but it leans a little that way.

12 hours ago, xero said:

And you have none to concern yourself with?

Can you even name a defect you have which you've struggled with

Aren’t I hearing the song from her:

”Regrets, I’ve had a few, but then again too few to mention.

My foes, theirs I accrue, for which I want your full attention.” ?

13 hours ago, xero said:

So the slaves of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow fine seed in your field? How, then, does it have weeds?’ ²⁸  He said to them, ‘An enemy, a man, did this.’y

“So the slaves of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not just cover your home with fine paint? How, then, does there come to be anti-JW graffiti all over it? He said to them, ‘An enemy, those pestilential apostates, did this. The slaves said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go out and scrub it off?  He said, ‘No, for fear that while scrubbing it off, you may ruin the paint job. Let them both remain for a time—I’ll put up with the eyesore for now—until that time when the Grand Redecorator comes along to bundle those guys up in groups of fifty and send them all to the WeepnNash hoosegow.
 

9 hours ago, Pudgy said:

It seems like a hint is that Jehovah knows our Guardians' limitations, and seems to have tolerated a tremendous amount of grievous error of his "Organization" back in the era of King David, et al.

“As chairman of the resurrection Welcome Wagon, it is my honor to welcome you back from the dead. We have it set up so the guy who is resurrected, after a brief orientation, gets to chair the committee to greet the next group. I’m King David. You may have read of me when……um…….(gulp)……oh, hello Uriah. It’s good to see you.”

1 hour ago, xero said:

instead of spending time filling in the gaps of bible-knowlege or figuring out how to get possession of their own vessel in sanctification and honor people spend their time spraying anti-JW graffiti on whatever surface they can find.

“spraying anti-JW graffiti on whatever surface they can find.”

Paid up your membership fee for an entire year with that one, you did.

8 hours ago, Pudgy said:

Do you take Pudgycoin?

 

Anything short of Pudgydroppings is negotiable.

And to think when I was assigned the thread—it wasn’t my idea—entitled ‘TrueTom vs the Apostates,’ which went on to inspire a book of the same name, I had JTR and Witness, along with Top Cat O’Malihan, on the same side!

I misjudged JTR back then, and I apologize for it, but he was behaving outrageously at the time. Now he has moderated enough for even a clod like me to see the distinction. 

The final transgression that earned me my Scarlet Letter A was when I suggested that my three ‘apostates,’ though seemingly on the same page, doubtless would not be able to stand each other in person. At some length, I detailed the reasons why. That’s what did it. Admin made the Librarian (that old hen) take the entire thread down and yell at me!

I wrote TrueTom vs the Apostates! to assist anyone who has been stumbled at charges apostates make and thereafter no one is able to help them because they don’t know what is there themselves. It’s for them. Nobody else is allowed to read it. Look, don’t try to bluff me on this. I’ll know.

It is available as an ebook and also in Amazon print. Easily found online.

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Ex JWs don’t exist to offer you anything. Also, no other people in the world exist to offer you, JW, something better, or to put you in a new, different organization.

So then what you are saying is that it is your purpose in life to piss on something without offering anything better—to take away but not give. Isn’t that sort of a pathetic occupation for a grown man?

50 minutes ago, xero said:

Anyone reading the Bible would see that the people whom God led w/an organization tacked this way and that. …I don't see that there ever has been universal agreement among members of the groups of God's people. Not in Bible times and not today either.

Of course. “You can’t always get what you want,” as someone recently drummed to. Nobody gets everything his way. There are things about the earthly organization that are not as I would prefer. 

But the choice is not now, nor has ever been, between the people who are tacking this way and that and the people who are sailing straight and true without deviation. The choice is between the people who are tacking this way and that and the people who have sailed off the edge of the earth. The key tenets: no immortal soul, no trinity, use God’s name, kingdom a real government, everlasting life on earth, why God permits evil, exactly how the ransom works, what happens to the dead, preserved nowhere except in the realm where the GB presides—that has to make an impression with anyone in whom love of truth resides. 

I’m struck with how when people leave Jehovah’s organized worship, they never ever mention these tenets again. The very factors that drew them into the faith are now dismissed as though of no importance. It certainly is true of detractors here who would draw people away. The blemishes of humans taking the lead are drawn out, exaggerated, or even make up, as though they did not all have their counterparts among the first century apostles and presbyrs. Press the detractors for where they would have you go instead and they clam up. They have nothing to offer.

In the case of those who still believe in God, it is back to the land of churches, where in time, the bland junk food will reassert itself: All roads lead to heaven, God works in mysterious ;ways, Death of a child is because God needs another flower in heaven. How is that not like the dog returning to his own vomit?

in the case of those who have gone the atheist route, it is like a market crash where millions are transformed into hundreds. “Ah, well, they were only paper gains anyway,” says the spiritual dullard giving up on everlasting life to go celebrate the hundreds he still has left. 

It is no good harping on the blemishes of others, real, imagined, or enhanced. The enemy in the West wants exactly what the enemy in the East wants—to separate Witnesses from their organization, with the confidence that they can be more easily assimilated that way. The only difference between them is the difference between the good cop who would coo at you and the bad cop who would beat you. They want the same. Should you acknowledge the blemishes of fellow believers  it nonetheless does not change the overall picture. It fits right in with how things were in the first century, where they also had blemishes. It’s how imperfect people are.

Pray to God that he fix your personal woes and beefs and he will respond that he has underlings who can handle the job. It is enough that he will listen to you and provide nourishment night and day. Complain to him that the underlings are imperfect and he will observe that you are no great shakes yourself—you will just have to learn to make do.

21 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Definition of gnosticism

: the thought and practice especially of various cults of late pre-Christian and early Christian centuries distinguished by the conviction that matter is evil and that emancipation comes through gnosis - https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gnosticism

This is similar or the same to Jesus' words; "Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

So Jesus is a cult leader is what you are saying.

40 minutes ago, xero said:

Nice reply Tom. I was just going to reply w/this...

But your reply is better.

I wanted to reply with that, but couldn’t find it.

20 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Is taking in knowledge of God and Christ beyond our capacity? No. .................Around the globe, experience has shown that the most efficient way to acquire this knowledge is by means of a personal Bible study guided by someone who has already grasped the material.

Bolding WT publications such as this one, do you imagine you have uncovered some dark mystical “gnostic” secret? Or is this not the way knowledge of anything is acquired? If you want to be an electrician, isn’t the best way to put yourself in close association with someone who has already grasped the material?

Knowledge in the case of this Watchtower quote is not the hidden knowledge of the Gnostics. It is Bible knowledge, available to all. All that is needed is a guide. 

20 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

The “anointed ones” who decide what knowledge is and who decide how and when that knowledge will be made public is GB.

And it apparently works. The Bible tenets that describe Jehovah’s Witnesses and Jehovah’s Witnesses alone are found nowhere except where the GB is taking the lead.

That there is no immortal soul, no trinity, use God’s name, kingdom a real government, everlasting life on earth, why God permits evil, exactly how the ransom works, what happens to the dead, and so forth. Few Christian denominations teach even one of these. No one teaches all of them. Only where the GB is present does it happen. In that sense, though G Jackson was ridiculed for it, he is exactly right. They serve as “guardians of doctrine.” Where they are not present, doctrine is scattered to the four winds..

Nor do they “decide what knowledge is” in the sense you imply—simply making things up as though from a secret “gnostic” source. In all cases it is from the Bible. They point people to it—no more—after which it is clear the Bible itself does the instructing. As in the following case:

“Philip ran alongside and heard him reading aloud Isaiah the prophet, and he said: “Do you actually know what you are reading?”  He said: “Really, how could I ever do so, unless someone guided me?” And he entreated Philip to get on and sit down with him.” (Acts 8:31-32)

There is nothing mystical about the know in this verse. It’s not gnostic. It is just plain and simple knowledge of the scriptures. The eunuch just needed someone with a key to unlock it. 

This Bro Kaplan makes a pretty good spokesman: "We are not afraid to be different, but we are not out to provoke. Those who know us, including serious institutions in democracies, know that we are not a group of crazies with apocalyptic visions.”

I like, too, how he points to the irony of in every land, Witnesses are derided on the basis of being anti-Christian, but in Israel on the basis that they are Christian.

8 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

Apparently, a religious minority is a convenient target for slanders and distorted facts, as the Jews themselves know from their bitter experience.”

Jews know what it is to be persecuted and they do not confuse it with people deciding not to hang out with you.

8 hours ago, Witness said:

Did someone say it is a personal choice to get the vaccine?  Not really; that is, if one wants to retain "privileges". ..All Special Full-Time Servants at Bethel and in the Field" 

If so, expect the exJW crowd to become virulently hostile to vaccines.

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

When WTJWorg religious leaders replace one theology with another, then it is also called “loss of credibility”.

No. That’s called making the same missteps as the original disciples did, missteps all stemming from an eagerness to see the kingdom come.

“When, now, they had assembled, they went asking him: “Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?” (Acts 1:6)

“While they were listening to these things he spoke in addition an illustration, because he was near Jerusalem and they were imagining that the kingdom of God was going to display itself instantly. (Luke 19:11)

It’s not ideal, then or now, but that’s what imperfect people do. It sure beats the pants off of giving up on the whole project.

47 minutes ago, Witness said:

I have nothing to lose in this war.

You can always lose more credibility, as you do when you rely upon Bible “texts” that everyone else in the world of biblical manuscripts rejects.

Next thing you know, she’ll have the wrongdoer ascending with Jesus to paradise that day, nevermind how it conflicts with the rest of the scriptures.

16 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

Everything expect the TR usually sticks to the earliest and most reliable source possible in order to remain true and authentic to the inspired word.

I think it is pretty clear that scholarship does not matter to her and that she uses her special ‘anointed’ sense to tell if a passage is any good or not. If it helps her in her battle against her ‘rival anointed,’ is is golden.

3 hours ago, Witness said:

Well, it is true that the Wt. cannot tolerate these "spurious" scriptures because they would diminish the power of disfellowshipping.  

The reason the Wt cannot tolerate these “spurious” scriptures is because they are “spurious.” Nobody else worth his salt in the world of biblical scholarship can tolerate them either. Just because a passage appeals to sentimentality does not mean it belongs in the word of God.

Up till now I thought you at least knew scriptures, if not their proper application. Now it appears you do not know scripture either. Any tear-jerker of a passage you uncritically accept.

What “proofs” does your website offer to counter the fact that it is not found in any of the oldest manuscripts? Besides the fact that it appeals to you, I can see only:

1) Jesus said a lot of things, all the scrolls in the world could not contain them, so probably this is one of those things.

2) It is not vague but has specific details.

That’s it!

I could write a biblical passage to meet these criteria, and you would probably accept it.

In fact the Trutomicom excerpt, unjustly excluded from modern Bibles, but I have found an ancient manuscript of such in my glove box, includes the following “missing” passage from Revelation:

”And loud voice was heard from the rider of the white horse, crying “Whoa!!!” As the angelic troops ground to a screeching halt, amidst the whinnying and neighing  and snorting of horses, the rider’s voice rang out:

”Really, what business is this of ours? Here below we see ones who do not know their right hand from their left. It’s their affair! Let the one who has no sin among them throw the first bolt. Since there is not such a one, I forgive them as well.* Now let’s go home.

*all except for the sins of a certain 8 men in New York State. They really tick me off! I’ll let all sins slide except for theirs. They’re gonna fry!”

Happy?

9 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Also, "Patiently" (calling himself 4Jah2me at the time) had already brought up the point about this being a potentially spurious passage several months ago.

So here we see why WItness defends the passage, despite flimsy evidence for it being genuine and strong evidence for it being spurious. She does it to undermine the provision of disfellowshipping.

7 hours ago, Pudgy said:

For me, I believe the Scripture is the words of Jesus, because contextually, there is no reason to believe they are not the words of Jesus. 
 

There is plenty of reason to not believe it. Though Jesus forgives sin frequently in scripture, there is always some evidence of repentance on the sinning one’s part. There is some basis for forgiveness. Here there is not.

All that is lacking in the spurious passage is for Jesus to say at the end: “Boy, I can’t believe what a nasty bully my dad is!” 

10 hours ago, Witness said:

If this passage was a forged or invented account, a huge question would be "why?"

To prepare the way for a new age:

”In olden times a glimpse of stocking was look at as something shocking, now heaven knows, anything goes.”

All that is lacking in the spurious passage is for Jesus to say: “After all, we all know that the God of the Old Testament is mean, but truly I say unto you: the God of the New Testament is nice.”

On 8/11/2021 at 10:56 AM, Space Merchant said:

So Atheists are easily susceptible to such higher powers in the authoritarian space.

I think this is true, provided those authorities do not present as religious in any way.

If they present as advocates of science, atheists quickly fall into line, for science is a human creation. In some regards it is the very antithesis to religion, so their revulsion of religion leads them to accept uncritically much of what is presented in science. For some reason, they never seem to notice when money co-opts their science.

Atheists propose drastic fixes for ecological woes. Religious people put trust in God’s design and say the earth will take care of itself if not sabotaged, and to a large extent, even if sabotaged. Atheists predicted ecological collapse after Exxon Valdez and BP Gulf oil spills. Religious people tend to think the earth is pretty good at healing itself once the provocation is removed.

Atheists are attracted to human science fixing things. Particles shot into space to encircle the earth and shield from global warming holds enormous promise for them. Find an human agency that backs such a scheme and atheists go gaga over it. They love the promise of AI. They love the promise of seed manipulation in hope of better food supply. Religious people distrust all of it. 

The “religious objection” that some people have to vaccines is essentially the view that “God don’t make no junk.” Atheists argue that he does, and that whenever life comes into being it must be instantly fortified with human science. A prime example of this is the changing definition of “herd immunity.” Whereas it was once “the indirect protection from an infectuous disease that happens when a population is immune either through vaccination or immunity developed through previous infection,” (WHO June 2020) their website is updated to describe herd immunity to “a concept used for vaccination, in which a population can be protected from a certain virus if a threshold of vaccination is reached”—as though there was no such thing as an immune system. 

Furthermore, “herd immunity is achieved by protecting people from a virus, not by exposing them to it,” again, as though the idea of an immune system is a fairy tale. Atheists fall all over this, for it is the latest pronouncement of human science. If they notice at all it has changed, they assume the change must be for the better since human science can do nothing but advance in their eyes. When they find an agency ready to enforce these new findings of “science,” they fall into it lockstep.

Religious people distrust it all, not forgetting the psalmist’s pronouncement we are “wonderfully made.”

Just now, TrueTomHarley said:

He wasn’t thinking that. Though yours is obviously the correct answer, the only authority Jack cares about distancing people from is that of the Jehovah’s Witness organization. If his intention is anything otherwise, it is a complete 180 degree flip for him. 

Most likely, the other authorities he has no problem following, and may even recommend that course, even should they all lead their followers off a cliff, like the pigs of Jesus’ day.

On 8/9/2021 at 1:24 PM, Space Merchant said:

If you give into authoritarianism, higher education system , media, government, ruling classes, corrupt oligopoly, etc. Then that raises question.

Even more evident when people give into the MSM. Simple questions can easily deduced said folks, regardless if you are in the US or the EU.

He wasn’t thinking that. Though yours is obviously the correct answer, the only authority Jack cares about distancing people from is that of the Jehovah’s Witness organization. Most likely, the other authorities he has no problem following, and may even recommend that course, even should they all lead their followers off a cliff, like the pigs of Jesus’ day.

3 hours ago, Arauna said:

What is wrong with me?  please say honestly.  I will not take offence....

Nothing at all wrong with you in my book, though I am surprised at the extent to which you lock horns with people who have proven conclusively for many months, even years, that they are not going to budge one iota.

Just above this comment, Patiently Sitting on my Hands wants you to “prove” something or other. The point is, it doesn’t work that way. “Prove to yourself” is how Romans 12:1 puts it, and he must prove it to himself, which he has abundantly demonstrated that Christendom’s hell will freeze over before that happens. 

“Taste and see Jehovah is good,” Ps 34:8 says, and for us, Jehovah comes part and parcel with his earthly organization. He has tasted and seen that he and it is bad—even the Name he discards. How can you “prove” to someone that their tastebuds are bad? If they don’t like it, they don’t like it.

I do sometimes comment where the bad boys and girls hang out, but it is usually in the sense of talking past them to the audience beyond who may be influenced by them. But when there is no other audience beyond other than ones exactly like them, then it seems you run the risk of violating Jesus’ counsel to leave blind guides be.

Lately I’ve been drawing away from this side of the forum in favor of the one where whatever you say is not instantly hurled back in your face with a very few arguments that you can answer till you’re blue in the face but they never change—they just repackage them and run them through again. Who would have thought that good @Annawould have provided respite? I was leaning this way even before Bro Spane’s talk—which is just a restatement of the same—and he just put more icing on the cake. 

Oh—and you’re a little given toward conspiratorial things, but that’s not a minus in my book. I appreciate the extra viewpoint. I don’t necessarily hold with it all, but on the other hand, it might turn out exactly that way.

Seriously, you are always welcomed for your insights on the closed forum and you won’t find fierce resistance to every syllable you utter.

53 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

JWs are in subjection to this, as with most.

I also don’t get into this much because it is not the main issue. If it is something that can get people sick in the long run—well, throw it on the stack. We all get sick in the long run.

The main thing for Witnesses is to focus on announcing the incoming kingdom under which no one will say ‘I am sick.’