TrueTomHarley

Let scientists be scientists and Bible teachers be Bible teachers. Don’t squabble unless there is a reason to. 

That there is not a reason to in some battlegrounds is highlighted in the downloadable Research Guide to accompany the NWT Study Bible. Regarding Genesis 1:14 and the creative days, there is a link to a 9-year old Watchtower article:

“These are not 24-hour days but are epochs. On the first creative day, Jehovah caused light to begin to appear at the earth’s surface. That process would be completed when the sun and the moon later became discernible from the earth. (Gen 1:3,14) On the second day, the atmosphere began to be formed. (Gen 1:6) Earth then had water, light, and air but still no dry land. Early on the third creative day, Jehovah used his holy spirit to produce dry land, perhaps harnessing powerful geologic forces to push continents up out of the global sea. (Gen 1:9) There would be other astounding developments on the third day and during later creative periods.”

I made reference to this article in my own post, entitled “Epochs and Aeons,” after reading the Sean B Carroll book, “The Making of the Fittest - DNA and the Ultimate Forensic Record of Evolution.” You have to use the middle initial of Sean Carroll, a ‘B’, because there is another well-known contemporary scientist with an ‘M’ for a middle initial—this one specializing in physics. It’s surprising, but no more surprising than to consider that the public face of JW persecution in Russia—the first one to be sentenced (to six year’s imprisonment) has a surname (Christensen) that evokes both his Lord and his Lord’s profession.

It turns out that there is also a local broadcaster by that name—Sean Carroll—who has since moved to Syracuse. I followed them all on Twitter and introduced them to each other. They hit it off and began to talk baseball! Then I made some remark about the trinity and in what way the three men might foreshadow that. All three Seans fell silent at that. Who can blame them?

They would have fallen more silent still had I tweeted the skit that I inserted in No Fake News but Plenty of Hogwash: 

Crack! “Mike Behe hits a grounder to shortstop! Sean Carroll scoops it up and flips it to Sean Carroll at second base – one out! Sean Carroll fires it to Sean Carroll at first – double play! And the Denver Denyers lose to the Cincinnati Smarts! Jock, those Smarts have one helluva team this year. I almost think Sean Carroll will be named MVP.” “Yeah, and if not Sean Carroll, then maybe Sean Carroll! Or maybe even Sean Carroll!”

Oh, and I also like this link to a 2004 Awake with regard to verse 16: 

“How could God produce light on the first day if the luminaries were not made until the fourth day?” is the question. The answer is that the Hebrew word rendered “make” in 16 is not the same as the word for “create” in 1, 21, and 27. The bodies that are the source of light were created before any of those creative days began. Their light did not reach the earth, however, until the early impenetrable atmosphere began to clear. Not surprisingly, Genesis is written from the standpoint of someone on earth, not someone hovering in space.

3 hours ago, Kosonen said:

But I will not join any church. I can not stand false teachings. I would prefer if people would listen to what I teach based on God's word.

Probably you do not mean this as it sounds. But for the moment, let me take you at your word.

You are saying that there is no group not disqualified in your eyes. They are all contaminated with false teachings. These is but a single source to be taught God’s word without error—you.

Really?

4 minutes ago, Kosonen said:

I see often here in Sweden where I live other churches preaching and handing out their tracts and books. They use to have a big sign that reads 'Believe in Jesus'

Go there. If that’s all it takes for you, go there. 

If you discern no difference whatsoever in how Jehovah’s Witnesses and those churches present Jesus, then you should go there. It’s easier, if for no other reason than you (usually) will not need to dress up.

I am assuming that you are up-to-speed on the threads here and haven’t just wandered in off the street with no background knowledge. Should the latter be the case, try the online Bible studies on the home page of JW.org, where you will find basic understandings of Jesus, what he represented, and what he taught, that are poles apart from what may be found in the churches.

There is a huge difference. But if, after having worked through those study sessions, you don’t agree, then pick the church with the biggest sign—sometimes they play cool music—and go there.

22 minutes ago, Kosonen said:

Many churches are preaching a such message as did apostle Paul.

They are not.

Apparently the evangelicals are going bonkers over this about Trump, cementing their notion of him as the “faulty messiah used by God.” I’m so glad we don’t play this game. As it is, there are some who have said for every POTUS since Truman, ‘He’s the one!’  but it is not for anything specific and without any connotation of good or bad—just for whoever happens to be presiding at the time. 

It is in one of my books, I think No Fake News....Oscar Oxgoad’s ancient dad stares as the TV screen, as he has for every President since Truman: “He’s the one!” his voice quavers.

27 minutes ago, Melinda Mills said:

My sister's congregation has mid-week meeting starting on Monday.  Four congregations there.

Rats

10 minutes ago, Arauna said:

In Sweden mine was on a Monday and watchtower on Saturday.

Rats. So much for home-baked prophesies.

The downloadable research guide is going to add much to the current cycle of Bible reading.

Already with Genesis 1:1 are links to articles observing that there is no reason to quarrel about the age of the earth. Scientists say 4 billion years? Let them. There is no objection, since “in the beginning” is BEFORE the creative days begin.

Nor is there any objection to a ‘big bang’ as a means to which God created the cosmos.

Genesis 1;3 I have always loved: “and God’s active force [spirit] was moving about over the surface of the waters”—as though saying, “okay—ready, here—gimme something to do.”

”The riot squad is restless; they need somewhere to go.”—Bob Dylan. Nah, it doesn’t really fit, but I just like Dylan.

And, technially, my prediction that the system should have ended yesterday since JWs have reached the end of their multi-year Bible reading cycle and it would be too inconveiniest to make them start all over again still holds, since I know of no mid-week meetings that falls on Monday.

3 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

If He chose 5 years to make your Org clean, then another 5 years until Judgement Day. Plenty of time. 

Piece of cake for him

3 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

See my new topic about the  'original' IBSA. 

Yes! It will be them—the “true anointed.” They are preparing so well for their new assignment that when people hear footsteps coming up the drive, they say: “Here come those International Bible Students again!

3 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

If JW congregants were shown True new light by the True Anointed, that could easily be 8.5 million people that would change to a true way of worshipping God. 

Yes! They would break out in song like the munchkins of Oz: “Ding dong the witch is dead!”

3 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Tom Harley ridicules me about my idea concerning the True Anointed. 

Why would you say that?

37 minutes ago, Witness said:

Now Tom, I thought you were a facebook fan, having your own page.  Should I ask why you hang out there?

Because I just present myself as an ordinary person, not as One of the true anointed throwing a lifeline to lost souls. Much of what I write there has nothing to do with religion. Same goes for my blog, which is not a part of Facebook.

3 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

JW congregants know nothing of the CSA,

I think they do. Granted, they do not accept your role as the Great Explainer.

3 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

or of the misuse of scriptures by your GB

Ditto. I think they do. Granted, they do not accept your role as the Great Explainer. They don’t count it as “misuse.” They are not quite so....so....some would say immature....as you.

2 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

I would have thought that any True Anointed person would have no part of JW Org as it is right now. Why would they stay in a false religion ? And some of them serving as Elders  ?  

Well, in that case your True Anointed would have to start up from scratch (in just 10 years or less), and when I floated that idea by you before, you had a cow over it.

2 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Wouldn't true Anointed Earthwide have the spiritual strength to 'gather together' via internet or other means ? Wouldn't God through Christ, give them the spiritual upbuilding ?

Of course! There they are on Facebook, that site founded by the frat boy in order to rate women by their...um....attributes. Yes! A perfect spot for God to call his own!

Go back to being nonsensical, 4Jah—you don’t mess with people’s heads when you do that.

15 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Yes, two way. You can tell a lie, half-truth, truth without some important elements ... etc. ... if that is helping God' and Jesus' and Kingdom' interests here on Earth. But when you have to tell about same things to elders you are not entitled to use "theocratic warfare". :)))

Srecko, I am sorry. It is not your fault. It is mine.You have plainly stated that English is not your first language. If I had to express myself in another language, I....well, I wouldn’t be able to do it.

But there are times when I can detect a general odor from one of your remarks, but if someone asked me exactly what is the point that you are making, I would have to answer “I haven’t a clue.’

Ideally, I should spend whatever time it takes to decipher it, but times when I do, I usually end up saying: “Oh...it is that point JTR was making” and I got it from him a whole lot easier, plus with some cartoons thrown in.

I almost feel mean posting this. You are doing your level best to malign Witnesses & perhaps I should feel it my duty to bear with it and discern whatever it is you are trying to say, but I am not always up to it.

Sorry.

1 hour ago, 4Jah2me said:

It is only THEIR personal viewpoint. And it can take the lives of millions of people. 

More like hundreds, as JWI states. 

This gets so old, as do the other “dangers” posed by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

The fact that they abstain from smoking—to take just one of several examples—far offsets all of them. 

There is NO course that does not include some “danger” as is evidenced by the fact that people die and when they do, it is not always due to “natural causes,” and even when it is, most of those natural causes could have been forestalled by living as Witnesses do.

“Have you beheld the storehouses of the tumbleweeds that I have reserved for the day of distress?”

I was slow to adopt digital technology, though once I did I made full use of it.

Back in the early days of smart phones, when I had yet to own a cell phone, I used to comment on WWJD (What Would Jesus Do).

”I’ll tell you what Jesus would do. Jesus would use a phone with a wire attached to the wall! He would never use a cell phone, and especially one with apps!”

I didn’t even know what apps were, but I did know that Jesus would never use them.

4 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Probably nobody is buying his books. 

Nobody is. I need you to get the ball rolling. Have you gone back to celebrating Christmas yet? The books make great stocking stuffers.

Come now, don’t be mean to me. I am trying to help.

You have said that Armageddon might be 10 years or more in the future, and that the ‘true anointed’ (since the present one is no good) might manifest itself in 10 years or less. Thus it is conceivable that they might both happen at the ten year mark on the dot, and the situation of those saved will be like the baseball player sliding into home—the true anointed umpire waving him safe as the devil catcher misses with his tag.

So that this ridiculous situation does not happen, you must do all you can so that the ”true anointed,” when it appears, hits the ground running and doesn’t wait to the last moment to get moving. Some members of this “true anointed,” I gather, are still muzzled within JWorg—they can’t all be outside and have their own Facebook pages. If they were, they could start a Facebook group and go from there, lacking only the Great Eight, who they don’t like anyway.. So some must be current Witnesses who are treated terribly, held incommunicado, not allowed to communicate with one another. 

You can’t help them because the present arrangement is not pure enough for you and you cannot look upon what is bad. However, JTR is not so finicky and has no problem doing that. You can assign him to the role of “true helper” to those future members of the “true anointed.” He can thereby redeem himself in your eyes for seeing, as you do, how wicked everything is in the org but choosing to remain there still—give him the assignment. He can visit these mistreated anointed ones in their cells and even pass notes from one to another in case they want to communicate in strict violation of the rules. That way they will be in better shape when the true liberation comes.

Please, 4Jah, I am only trying to help. I think this suggestion might work.

32 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

I'm sure I could waste half an hour

I’m sure of that, too.

Someone said that Kim Jung Un might be feeling uncomfortable about now. Unlike the Iranian general, does Kim really have any allies staunchly in his corner, come hell or high water? Maybe Russia.

3 hours ago, Anna said:

And I can't think of any examples right now as it's really late and I'm about to fall to sleep...

Nobody sleeps forever. Tomorrow is a new day

3 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Do you think it MIGHT have something to do with ... oh, say MONEY$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

No, you concrete-brained dinosaur—“all mixed up and firmly set”—because they act the same way when no money at all is at involved. They do things that cost a fortune to benefit penny-less persons in the developing world

If it was all about money with them, they would have TOLD you to go to college, earn as much money as you can, and send it all to them! They would not be recommending people at every turn to lighten up on their use of the world—they would advise people to double down on it!

3 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

"What's the matter Obi-Wan ... did you suddenly feel a disturbance in the Force, as if millions of voices cried out in terror, and suddenly went silent?"

Just one blockhead on the WNMF will do it for me.

I once worked with a girl named Casey who positively loved science fiction. In the context of other things, I mentioned the film I, Robot.

Oh, that was terrible! she said.

But as we kept talking, it turned out she had never seen it. Um...Casey, how do know it's terrible if you've never seen it? I asked. The answer was that she was a purist. She knew the movie did not follow Isaac Asimov's storyline, and that was enough for her!

For an Asimov purist, the movie would indeed be blasphemy. Asimov, who wrote literally almost all the time, having 500 books (written or edited) and 90,000 letters to his credit, with works in nine of the ten major categories of the Dewey Decimal system, penned the Foundation trilogy and the I, Robot series, both pillars among science fiction. His plotting was ingenious, and had he been able to empathetically sketch people as well as ideas, he might have gone down as one of literature's true greats. Alas, his characters are cardboard, like those TV characters who are freely interchangeable save for one or two superficial features: this one is mean, this one likes to eat, that one is a geek, etc. Too bad - for every other aspect of Asimov's writing is extraordinary.

Asimov was an atheist, but I always imagine that, if current atheists had been taught the Bible by Jehovah's Witnesses instead of the churches, they may not have turned atheist. It's probably not so but I dream it anyway. For example, in his last autobiographical book, Asimov observes that hell is "the drooling dream of a sadist" crudely affixed to an all-merciful God; if even human governments were willing to curtail cruel and unusual punishments, wondered Asimov, why would punishment in the afterlife not be restricted to a limited term.  [Wikipedia entry on Isaac Asimov] Yeah! Man, I wish he had heard first from Jehovah's Witnesses! Virtually alone among Christian faiths at the turn of the last century, Jehovah's Witnesses exposed hellfire for the vicious rubbish that it is. JW "founder" C. T. Russell was known in his lifetime as the man who "turned the hose on hell and put out the fire!"

At any rate, had he been a Witness, it would have benefited him personally. He died in 1992, of AIDS contracted from a blood transfusion nine years prior.

Still, I am grateful to Dr. Asimov, not only for the hours of intriguing science fiction he laid upon me, but also for his non-fiction works. Asimov's Guide to Science probably was my springboard to individual branches of science. If Asimov lacked in sketching fictional characters, he was gifted in sketching real ones. Not only the pillars, but also the buffoons, he succeeded in portraying the humanity of scientists. It is from him (Asimov's guide to Biology) that I first read of Ignaz Semmelweis, early advocate of antiseptic surgical practices and forerunner of germ theory. 

In the mid 1800's, Semmelweis got it in his head that fever and death following doctor-assisted childbirth could be curtailed by washing hands and equipment frequently. Doctors back then would deliver a baby, having just emerged from an autopsy, only wiping their hands on their smocks! There were some sort of tiny "particles" contaminating the women, Semmelweis proposed. Doctors howled with laughter at such nonsense. Asimov's book vividly portrays Semmelweis' presenting his ideas at seminars, with his esteemed audience mocking him, hurling catcalls! Doctors argued that, even if Semmeweis' findings were correct, washing one's hands each time before treating a pregnant woman would be too much work. Semmelweis enforced strict antiseptic practices at the hospital under his supervision, cutting deaths to under 1%, and it made no difference in their attitude! Colleagues ridiculed him his entire life, he suffered a nervous breakdown and, says Asimov, died in an insane asylum tormented by memories of women screaming in their death-agonies following hospital-acquired infections. With Semmelweis out of the way, his own hospital went back to familiar practices and the mortality rate climbed to 35%.

You can read the bare facts in many places, but Asimov's account is the most vivid I have come across, remarkable in a book that purports only to be an outline, a "guide."

Whenever those atheists start prattling on about how scientists graciously change their views at the first hint they may be off-base, whereas it's only the pig-headed religionists who "stay the course" come hell or high water, I play the 'Semmelweis' card.

Athiest or not, I miss Isaac Asimov. 

(Reprinted from www.tomsheepandgoats.com - July 16, 2007)

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20 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

So, although i do not compare myself to Jesus, I do think i have good reason to be harsh. I am looking for truth. 

Yes, you have looked for it here on JWI’s thread.

’Tell me more, JWI. Explain this point about 1914 again, JWI. These are things all over my head, JWI. Please run that by me again, JWI. Thank you for helping me, JWI’

And what is JWI’s reward for this helpfulness, when it becomes clear that he is not throwing out the baby with the bathwater?

24 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father

It is too stupid to be wicked.

38 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

Coming from a man that asks if he is allowed to use blood fractions.

You dodo, he has asked nothing of the sort. Go back and read it again.

If I ever reread Revelation and discover yet another beast—one described as one of those little yapping dogs that bite you in the ankle or pees on your pant leg the moment your back is turned, I will have an intrepration for that one that will even make your ‘true anointed” turn green with envy,

1 hour ago, 4Jah2me said:

Which could NOT be the Revelation book by JW Org because they said it basically wasn't all true, in fact it probably had mistakes in..

These types of comments from you are so frequent that it seems clear to me you are someone who wants to be told what to do—by a “true anointed,” of course—but you do want to be told what to do.

Brothers who are like this are nightmares in the congregation—transforming every bit of counsel into a RULE that they beat others over the head with, so it is just as well that you are out. Much effort is made through the various schools to refine this ‘rule-mongering” quality out of our people. In your case, you appear to have saved them the trouble.

1 hour ago, 4Jah2me said:

In 2016 ? Watchtower announced the discontinuation...including the “Creation” book, the “Isaiah” books, and the infamous “Revelation” book. 

What that means is that you cannot order them from Bethel anymore. Would you require them to print everything forever?

They have ALL been recently made available on the JW app, so they couldn’t have been THAT “infamous,” could they?  That they were not digitally available before I think is just a matter of having bigger fish to fry. They had to wait their turn. 

The discussions of the beasts with the seven heads—particularly the “image of the beast” that has life breathed into it by the two-headed one—the beast that was, was not, and yet is—the central issue of Jehovah’s sovereignty vs man’s sovereignty —there is nothing like it anywhere.

What have you fallen back to, 4Jah? Are you checking mean-looking animals at the zoo to see if there is one with 666 written on its forehead?

12 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Question: (serious question open to all)  

Does this mean that you rely on your GB to tell you it is a “conscience matter” ?

Not you—don’t you ever think? 

If I need a jack-in-the-box that says to every comment “Jehovah’s Witnesses Suck” I’ll go to the store and buy one.

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Overlapping generations start to stretch thin—how long until they snap apart? the Einsteins here start to fret—and so they investigate to rewrite basic understandings.

You don’t ‘downvote’ this post, 4Jah2Me—why in the world would you do that? Unless you are mad that I do not consider you an Einstein.

12 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

NAME, STREET ADDRESS, CITY AND ZIP CODE, NO BLOOD OR BLOOD FRACTIONS

Question: (serious question open to all)

When something is said to be a “conscience matter”—as the “blood fractions” today is said to be—does that mean that there IS a right and a wrong to it, but Jehovah allows “wiggle room” “on account of our hardheartedness”?

Or

Does it mean that there legitimately are two different ways of looking at a matter, and he really does encourage us to use our conscience in choosing the course that seems the most reasonable to us?