TrueTomHarley

I think your beef goes well beyond this or any other discussion and it is simply that there is a shepherding mechanism among JWs. Next it will be at shepherds themselves, next congregations themselves. Will it go all the way to a beef that there is a God himself?

Sigh....

This is probably true. But it is in the nature of social media. Nobody “fully understands” anything of which they speak. Maybe they should, but they rarely do. All communication is a give-and-take of trying to get a better grasp of things, searching out accuracy and evading the rocks that would rip open the boat’s bottom.
For the most part, this is understood going in. It is buyer beware. A fool believes every word. The shrewd ones weighs matters carefully.
Granted, few people do this. But the only solution is to become more shrewd oneself or pull the plug on social media Since the latter isn’t likely to happen, one can only aim for the former.

I think your beef goes well beyond this or any other discussion and it is simply that there is a shepherding mechanism among JWs. Next it will be at shepherds themselves, next congregations themselves. Will it go all the way to a beef that there is a God himself?

I think your beef goes well beyond this or any other discussion and it is simply that there is a shepherding mechanism among JWs. Next it will be at shepherds themselves, next congregations themselves. Will it go all the way to a beef that there is a God himself?

Sigh....

This is probably true. But it is in the nature of social media. Nobody “fully understands” anything of which they speak. Maybe they should, but they rarely do. All communication is a give-and-take of trying to get a better grasp of things, searching out accuracy and evading the rocks that would rip open the boat’s bottom.
For the most part, this is understood going in. It is buyer beware. A fool believes every word. The shrewd ones weighs matters carefully.
Granted, few people do this. But the only solution is to become more shrewd oneself or pull the plug on social media Since the latter isn’t likely to happen, one can only aim for the former.

It depends upon what you define as “doing the right thing.” In the eyes of are determined critics, we still are not “doing the right thing” and will not until any so much as a hint of CSA allegation is immediately forwarded by elders to the police—effectively making them an arm of the state. It is not for elders to make any judgment as to credibility or severity. Send any allegation to police. 
We may think we have settled matters by making clear there is no stigma in affected or knowledgeable parties going to police with CSA allegations “unproven” or not.  But they will not think so.
Sometimes I think these matters of who is mandated to report and who is not would be best settled by extending it across the board. At present, clergy, or in our case those who parallel them in some respects, are called upon to “do the right thing.” Doctors also are called upon to “do the right thing.” Extend it to lawyers that they also must “do the right thing”—send any admission or suspicion of CSA straight to police—and the entire mandated structure of other parties might reverse.
So desperate is the world to stop CSA, so ineffectual are they at doing it, that the idea has been floated of make any person a mandated reporter.
Of course, in the eyes of our really determined critics, we will not be “doing the right thing” until we cease to exist. It is why I was so taken with Holly Folk’s frank caution: “If you are a past or present JW victim of CSA, be careful that you are not victimized anew by those who feign interest in your trauma so as to use you in their quest to take down a religion they dislike.
 

Doesn’t matter. If ones go straight to police with an allegation and police decide there is nothing to it, then no harm is done to anyone beyond some inconvenience & maybe false suspicion. 
If ones go straight to the police and an abuser is thrown into the hoosegow, no doubt elders will find out about it then. At that time, they can begin whatever spiritual role they will play. They’d have no reason to feel “left out of the loop,” and I don’t think they would.

I don’t know what you are smoking, but what you have underscored in no way contradicts my point and in no way validates yours. On the second portion I speak a bit less confidently, for I have no idea what point you are trying to make, nor even if you are making one beyond merely laying down words.

You either don’t keep up or you deliberately misrepresent. The May 2019 made exactly that point. 
It doesn’t matter what the elders do or do not do. It doesn’t matter what they do or do not believe. A member has every right to go to the police and by doing so, they bring no reproach at all on the congregation. The abuser has already done that. 

Yes. Geoffrey Jackson made that point to the ARC but they didn't want to hear it.
In the Dear Mr. Putin ebook, I included:
"Three times before the Australian Royal Commission, Geoffrey Jackson, of the Witness Governing Body, pleaded for universal, mandatory reporting laws, with no exceptions—if that could only be done, it would make the job of the Witness organization in policing its own without raising the ire of those outside the congregation “so much easier,” he said.
"Continuing his cross-examination, Justice Angus Stewart said: “Leaving aside the question of overriding mandatory law from the civil authorities...” I almost wish that Brother Jackson would have interjected at this point, “I wish you would not leave it aside, for it would solve the problem.” The greater world cannot make a dent in preventing child sexual abuse, and so it puts the onus on those who are trying to do something about it. Alas, our best lines invariably occur to us too late—had Brother Jackson picked up my line, it probably just would have got their backs up—and then (gulp) he would have looked at me with displeasure."
Alas, this passage does not survive into the rewrite, but I'll stick it somewhere.
If only CC could refrain from spewing battery acid on everyone--he really does have some valuable insights here.
 

It depends upon what you define as “doing the right thing.” In the eyes of are determined critics, we still are not “doing the right thing” and will not until any so much as a hint of CSA allegation is immediately forwarded by elders to the police—effectively making them an arm of the state. It is not for elders to make any judgment as to credibility or severity. Send any allegation to police. 
We may think we have settled matters by making clear there is no stigma in affected or knowledgeable parties going to police with CSA allegations “unproven” or not.  But they will not think so.
Sometimes I think these matters of who is mandated to report and who is not would be best settled by extending it across the board. At present, clergy, or in our case those who parallel them in some respects, are called upon to “do the right thing.” Doctors also are called upon to “do the right thing.” Extend it to lawyers that they also must “do the right thing”—send any admission or suspicion of CSA straight to police—and the entire mandated structure of other parties might reverse.
So desperate is the world to stop CSA, so ineffectual are they at doing it, that the idea has been floated of make any person a mandated reporter.
Of course, in the eyes of our really determined critics, we will not be “doing the right thing” until we cease to exist. It is why I was so taken with Holly Folk’s frank caution: “If you are a past or present JW victim of CSA, be careful that you are not victimized anew by those who feign interest in your trauma so as to use you in their quest to take down a religion they dislike.
 

Case in point.
(Forgive me. I admit it is a cheap shot.)

Yes. Geoffrey Jackson made that point to the ARC but they didn't want to hear it.
In the Dear Mr. Putin ebook, I included:
"Three times before the Australian Royal Commission, Geoffrey Jackson, of the Witness Governing Body, pleaded for universal, mandatory reporting laws, with no exceptions—if that could only be done, it would make the job of the Witness organization in policing its own without raising the ire of those outside the congregation “so much easier,” he said.
"Continuing his cross-examination, Justice Angus Stewart said: “Leaving aside the question of overriding mandatory law from the civil authorities...” I almost wish that Brother Jackson would have interjected at this point, “I wish you would not leave it aside, for it would solve the problem.” The greater world cannot make a dent in preventing child sexual abuse, and so it puts the onus on those who are trying to do something about it. Alas, our best lines invariably occur to us too late—had Brother Jackson picked up my line, it probably just would have got their backs up—and then (gulp) he would have looked at me with displeasure."
Alas, this passage does not survive into the rewrite, but I'll stick it somewhere.
If only CC could refrain from spewing battery acid on everyone--he really does have some valuable insights here.
 

Yes. Geoffrey Jackson made that point to the ARC but they didn't want to hear it.
In the Dear Mr. Putin ebook, I included:
"Three times before the Australian Royal Commission, Geoffrey Jackson, of the Witness Governing Body, pleaded for universal, mandatory reporting laws, with no exceptions—if that could only be done, it would make the job of the Witness organization in policing its own without raising the ire of those outside the congregation “so much easier,” he said.
"Continuing his cross-examination, Justice Angus Stewart said: “Leaving aside the question of overriding mandatory law from the civil authorities...” I almost wish that Brother Jackson would have interjected at this point, “I wish you would not leave it aside, for it would solve the problem.” The greater world cannot make a dent in preventing child sexual abuse, and so it puts the onus on those who are trying to do something about it. Alas, our best lines invariably occur to us too late—had Brother Jackson picked up my line, it probably just would have got their backs up—and then (gulp) he would have looked at me with displeasure."
Alas, this passage does not survive into the rewrite, but I'll stick it somewhere.
If only CC could refrain from spewing battery acid on everyone--he really does have some valuable insights here.
 

It depends upon what you define as “doing the right thing.” In the eyes of are determined critics, we still are not “doing the right thing” and will not until any so much as a hint of CSA allegation is immediately forwarded by elders to the police—effectively making them an arm of the state. It is not for elders to make any judgment as to credibility or severity. Send any allegation to police. 
We may think we have settled matters by making clear there is no stigma in affected or knowledgeable parties going to police with CSA allegations “unproven” or not.  But they will not think so.
Sometimes I think these matters of who is mandated to report and who is not would be best settled by extending it across the board. At present, clergy, or in our case those who parallel them in some respects, are called upon to “do the right thing.” Doctors also are called upon to “do the right thing.” Extend it to lawyers that they also must “do the right thing”—send any admission or suspicion of CSA straight to police—and the entire mandated structure of other parties might reverse.
So desperate is the world to stop CSA, so ineffectual are they at doing it, that the idea has been floated of make any person a mandated reporter.
Of course, in the eyes of our really determined critics, we will not be “doing the right thing” until we cease to exist. It is why I was so taken with Holly Folk’s frank caution: “If you are a past or present JW victim of CSA, be careful that you are not victimized anew by those who feign interest in your trauma so as to use you in their quest to take down a religion they dislike.
 

I read your story with unfeigned interest before your final question hit me. I rarely laugh out loud literally, but I just did. Thanks.

I once worked for an inventory company—you may have seen their counters at various stores—there may be one hundred or more at large venues. Occasionally anal managers would come along to insist on no talking whatsoever!!! among the workers. (It does marginally improve the count)
Comraderie was the only thing that job had going for it. “Why can’t we get good people?!” one of the managers complained. “Because we don’t offer anything,” my favorite manager would answer back.
As such times as enforced silence I would make it my life mission to break down that discipline, and more often than not I succeeded. One might think I would be out on my ear for conduct like this, but I was a peacemaker, a force for cohesion, I wasn’t competitive, I would freely help others, particularly newbies, and for this a multitude of sins were overlooked.
I once was assigned a shift under Gladys, a legendary dragon, whom I almost never worked under—she covered a different time period. “Don’t worry about Gladys,” I told a newbie. “Yes, she is a dragon, and she is mean as the day is long, but if you just do your job you will not have any trouble.” She was right behind me!!
I didn’t back down when she took offense. “Well, come on,Gladys! You know how you are!”
She dismissed me later from the job for talking. But I refused to leave. “You can not request me for an additional job, but no way can you send me home from this one after I’ve gone to all the trouble to show up!” So I stayed. She did win a victory of sorts, though, for I talked no more during that night.
You think so, do you?

What would they apostasize from?
Not only to the many verses dealing with apostasy reveal the nature of apostates. They also reveal the nature of the Christian congregation.

Oh, come come. You wouldn’t be able to think your way out of a paper bag. You display it with almost every remark.

Yes. You were the catalyst. Thank you.
Not to worry. We can expect a True Anointed to come along any minute and fix it.

Yes. You were the catalyst. Thank you.
Not to worry. We can expect a True Anointed to come along any minute and fix it.

I have several chapters about it in TrueTom vs the Apostates. Then along comes Holly Frank to better say in far fewer words the broader portion of what I have said

I have several chapters about it in TrueTom vs the Apostates. Then along comes Holly Frank to better say in far fewer words the broader portion of what I have said