TrueTomHarley

Shiwiii delivers his coup de grace (this time for sure!) and Witness immediately high-fives him! They are both so excited!
Both are either too stupid, too deceitful, or too blinded by hate to notice that the Watchtower's letter is exactly based on the scripture that is quoted in the same paragraph. In fact, the two are intertwined, so that they are seemingly impossible to separate save for someone with an 10-foot ax to grind with which to separate the bone from the marrow of those they cannot tolerate. Is it too harsh to say we are dealing with a couple of losers?
In fact, the Watchtower shows more consideration than Paul. Paul simply says 'I'm coming for it - have it ready!' without any detail as to what he will use it for. Why isn't there an account to keep him honest - as has been demanded repeatedly elsewhere?! The Watchtower simply says we can be instructed by Paul's letter - it doesn't twist the arm as he does - and, unlike Paul,  it gives the reason for monies needed: for rent and maintenance. 
Even @Witness, who knows the Bible better than anyone in the whole wide world, especially the Governing Body, and who cannot pour herself a bowl of Cheerios without citing five scriptures to justify it, misses this most obvious point in the world - collections in a congregation have full scriptural backing. 
Once again,we go back to the point already stated:  nobody is less intrusive about money matters than are Jehovah's Witnesses.
 

The days was going so fine until they had to spoil it with grubbing for money.
Four hours! That's how long the annual meeting lasted. Four hours of streaming all the latest. Four hours of of experiences and details and history of building the new headquarters. Then, four talks spreading new light so brilliant it made Hiroshima and Nagasaki look like an overcast day.
And then spoiling it all - I couldn't believe it - in the midst of it, 30 seconds of shameless groveling for money. They actually (brace yourselves) - they actually suggested that those present might donate if they wanted to!!!, and (GASP!) they even said where they could do it (at the contribution box)!!!!
30 seconds' mention of money in a four hour period! @Shiwiii is right. It's all about money with these guys.
Oh, and that letter Shiwiii spirited out, that he was so excited about sharing - almost wetting himself in excitement? That letter that extra contribution stations should be established? I looked and looked for ours (our meeting was at our Kingdom Hall) and I discovered it! That slot in the counter that used to be designated as the Kingdom Hall fund but was taped over when that fund was combined with the WWW? ... It was UNCOVERED  again!!!!! and also labeled Worldwide Work! 
I tell you, it made Joel Osteen look like Johnny Appleseed! What a shameless example of greed!!!

I've never thought of the verse that way. I like that take.

That's why Jesus told his disciples to sit on their rear ends. Anything they might do would be 'man's way,' they being men.

And please do not quote this cognitive dissonance nonsense, for it is no more than:
'You do not agree with me. Therefore you must be suffering massive cognitive dissonance.'

While I might be willing to discuss some things with those who want to remodel, that does not mean I am willing to discuss them with those who want to demolish. 
Especially when they have neither replacement nor concern over that lack.

While one could say that those things are 'sexy,' they are not nearly so sexy as the entire world being at war for the first time, with the 2nd time largely being a consequence of the first.  If that is not 'peace being taken away from the earth' (Revelation 6), I'm not sure what is. If that is not Satan cast down (Revelation 12) and being peeved about it, I'm not sure what would be. Throw in the greatest pestilence ever, and some 'acceptable' food shortages, and the coincidence, if it were to be one, is ...I am tempted to say...unprecedented. 
In contrast, Hitler and Roosevelt 'rose' for some time, just try selling the Federal Reserve as the issue to get everyone hyped over, and the Jews are a 'been there, done that' thing with our emphasis on spiritual Israel. They are all very problematic. With regard to a World War, you would have to be looking hard NOT to see it.
I wasn't suggesting that.

If you move the day back 20 years, does that fit with any verses? Should it be expected to?

If this is a reference to 607 (it is not JWI's fault if I do not do my homework), I think of the expression 'it is the victors that write history.' It is a political statement regarding world powers, but it applies to everything. Certainly, science is fraught with accounts of one view coming into vogue, and then crushing the opposition for as long as possible.
My understanding is that some scholarly type has written a defense of 607. That's all you need. Not one Witness teaching is the majority view today; should we insist this one must be? For all the hype about 'critical thinking' today, the pattern remains what it has always been; in fact, it intensifies: choose your belief (largely based on 'heart') then go find some 'experts' to back you up.
Will 1914 fall? If it does, it does. But I am far from burying it just yet. Nor do I feel I should encourage the GB to have the wisdom and courage to do whatever is right. If I drop dead tomorrow, they will do just fine.
 I have grown used to explaining that 'if the greatest war in history, the ONLY time until then that the entire world went to war at the same time (China & region excepted, as it was isolated at the time), AND if the greatest pestilence in history does not constitute fulfillment of Matt 24:7 and Luke 21:10, 11, what does? Vs 8 of Matt indicates it starts off with a bang, but continues for some time.
Will I have to change my tune on this?
On the vs 8 'you ain't seen nothin' yet' front, terrorist knife or vehicle attacks, unheard of not long ago, are now just 'one of those things.' The gay revolution took decades; whereas the transgendered revolution has taken mere months, and a 9 year old girl can be, on National Geographic, not just transgendered, but a transgendered activist. 'Fake news,' absolutely unheard of just 3 years ago, is now a staple of life, one more of many pitfalls to mess with us.
Perhaps 1914 will suffice to get us through to the end. Maybe that won't be so far off after all.

Too many seem to think these two things are mutually exclusive - growing spiritually and following theocratic headship. I do not. 
Paul spoke somewhere about the pattern of the truth. Be around long enough and you pick up on the pattern. To say to headship: "you're all wet!" is not part of the pattern. There is no biblical precedent for it, beyond an individual yoyo or two like Naman that one must do end runs around. But muttering against theocratic headship on any significant scale is always associated with disaster.
Spiritual growth does not require you butt heads with it. It is better enabled if you do not. I comment frequently in my home congregation. I write a lot. I almost never give "the answer" from the paragraph. I have picked up on the pattern of the truth, and it is not necessary or even desired for a mature one to simply spit out what is in writing. 
Often I am surprised that where I go within the pattern, no one seems to have gone before. Sometimes I am surprised that they stick to what is (to me) dull and do not reach for things more subtle and interesting. Maybe I could set up my own "Institute of Deeper Understanding" but I don't. Others will catch on if it is worth catching. Or it may turn out that I am wrong - or just irrelevant and what intrigues me is just so much mental cabbage.
I am amazed at how many think it is necessary to walk in lockstep. It isn't. That said, I would never blow off as nothing counsel about obedience. Even counsel about hanging out verbally with unsavory ones I do not blow off - I would be much worse without it. 

Says who? Only he himself. People on this forum would waste no time concluding he was just covering his rear end - he had no idea what he was doing, so he kicked the can down the road 40 years. Maybe he was some sort of swami or something to do the cloud and fire trick, but after 40 years, it would get old with everyone here.
His leadership could easily have been disputed, even during the plagues. He was just in the right place at the right time, that's all. It would have happened in any case because  'all of Jehovah's people are holy.' Once he crossed the Red Sea, there were 40 years in which to get fed up with him. In fact, they got fed up with him within the month, cloud or no cloud. That is the lesson we ought to take away, I think, and see if we can avoid doing the same. 
At any rate, where else will you go? Srecko may be starting up something. hehehe :)))))))) But unless you want to join him, you may do best to get your head around the present routine to the extent you can. Where you can't, then don't. You don't have to, unless you enjoy privileges, in which case there are some things in which have to adhere more closely - the same as you would if you were the representative of any outfit.
People apply their full powers of critical thought to the present. But if they did it to the scriptural record, nothing would stand up. In fact there are people who do that and they have concluded that every other paragraph was written by someone new.

For the same reason I don't just waltz right in there. Had Moses been directed to put up a chain link fence instead of a curtain, I would feel differently
 
Moses made so many missteps that if you trace his footsteps in the Sinai over 40 years, it looks like he was drunk.
Step away from whatever 'privileges' you have in the theocratic organization. Seriously. They are not a privilege to you. They are a burden. If you represent the organization in some capacity, say as an elder, than you do have to reign in some personal freedoms. You don't have to do it as a regular rank and file (and yes, for this post only I will allow the hierarchy model) publisher. You can just rediscover the joys of doing the basic ministry and serving God. Discover the joy of following rather than taking the lead. Help whoever you want to help, not just those you have to. Many theocratic activities are not 'instead of' -  they are 'in addition to.' Back off so that you can do the 'instead ofs.' You will be serving Jehovah from a different vantage point. So long as you do not act outrageously, setting up a literature cart with your own pamphlets at the Kingdom Hall, for example,  you will find that no one interferes. Grow a beard if you like - it will make less waves than if you try it as an elder. Both you and they will be happier.
You are chaffing over organizational things. Step back for a time. Sometimes servants who should do not want to because they have gotten too used to the idea that their own gifts and input is essential. I know what I speak of in this. Presumably, you love the basics - ministry, association, Bible study, prayer. Focus on them. In time you may work out whatever issues you have - for they are not ridiculous or groundless, just overemphasized in your head I think - and you can make yourself available again
Are they 'controlling?' Yeah, I know where you are coming from, but I would not view it that way. It is relative. From the world's point of view (anything goes) they are absolutely tyrannical. But if you weigh their conduct against the freedom of speech and independent thought commented upon in the scriptures, they are  within the ballpark. Some things are arguable - they could be tweaked this way or that. I'm not crazy about everything I see. But it may be that being 'taught by Jehovah' will entail things that are not the way I would do it. It is not as though everything I have done in my life has turned out brilliantly.
It is what it is. At any rate, I do not see any alternative other than that outfit Witness runs. Or be like JTR. Raise your loved ones as Jehovah's Witnesses and tell them 85% of it is crap. Good luck juggling that one.
Exactly. Step away from that one. He will drive you nuts. Maybe he will be retrained someday, for they are trying to get him to not be such a yoyo. Maybe he himself will flame out or even be removed.  But he's gotten under your skin too much. Step away and you will recover in time. When you return you will have the tools to either put up with him or knock him out of the theocratic park,

If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If it were all hearing, where would the sense of smell be? But now God has arranged each of the body members just as he pleased.  If they were all the same member, where would the body be? - 1 Corinthians 12:17-19
It is enough that Witnesses can entertain whatever notions they want on these periphery teachings - you are far too hung up on asserting they cannot. What they cannot to is grab hold of the wheel of the bus. Many verses speak to promoting sects and stirring up divisions.
This is not difficult and I cannot understand your harping on this. If you can't accept something, don't accept it. Nobody says you have to shout these things from the rooftops. It is increasingly hard not to take these complaints of yours as the complaints of Korah: 'that is enough of you because all of Jehovah's people are holy.'
People here are searching for the divine/human interface. It is perfectly okay to do if you assume there IS no divine/human interface - that it is all a matter of human politics. Just be honest about it. But if you concede there is one - I am uncomfortable trying to peek between the curtains of the tabernacle into the Holy compartment - which is why I don't go there. And it is not getting caught by the attendants of the priest or even the priest himself that worries me.
 

I will not blow off as nothing the theocratic accomplishments I see playing out today. Perhaps I should wait for oceans to part so GB members can walk to wherever they are going, but I will settle for what I see now.
It is not nothing that a people are gathered internationally who are entirely undivided by nationalism, by racism, by social or educational class. It happens nowhere else on any scale. I will not take it for granted and not give credit where it is due.
I will not blow off as nothing that there is one and only one organization that will put a modern Bible without charge into the hands of whoever desires it anywhere. They have to completely circumvent the world's profit-driven distribution channel to do it, inventing their own channel. And in 900 languages, no less. Given time, the Bible translation will approach that figure - you know it will. It is already massive. 
The smooth functioning and meshing of diverse peoples to attain a common and undiluted spiritual goal - there has been no greater worldwide example of 'you received free, so give free.' It doesn't just happen. Somehow God has enabled humans to accomplish it.
Human things are not perfect? Timing has been off? That should be a shocker? Jesus said: "Keep on the watch, but don't overdo it?" I don't think so.
There is fierce opposition today? As though, with a capable leadership, Jesus words would be wrong and the world would love Christians? As though the worse 'wicked thing they would lyingly say' about Jesus' followers is "They woke me up Saturday morning when I was sleeping?" No.
IF Srecko hehehe :))))))) headed up something with anything to show for itself, minus the missteps, I would investigate it closely. The same with our house annointed person. But there is nothing but crying, muttering and bellyaching from all of them - at least they have pointed to nothing of significance. All they can do is cry that the doers are doing it wrong. Until humans are perfect, who can't do that?
Regarding authorization by miracles, Paul said such gifts would pass away. What if he had said it on this forum? What responses would he get? "Well - okay, BE that way if you are going to be. But don't expect anything from us! We're not budging unless we see plenty of razzle-dazzle!"
What we do see ought to be enough.

Many times during the 40 year period of wandering, the Jews then were called a stiff-necked and rebellious people. What were they stiff-necked and rebellious about in your opinion? Do you think there is anyone who corresponds to them today? If so, who? If not, why not? What lessons has everyone learned?

It is never on anything doctrinal or about timing of the end. When it comes, it comes. The present explanation I am always ready to acknowledge as the present explanation. Sometimes it stands the test of time. Sometimes it doesn't. It all will come out in the wash. I don't care too much. It is enough that Christianity offers a rewarding way to live.
The things that strike me are my own scriptural  'gems' that I can put to good use in working on my personality. Or in reflecting upon how God has dealt with me. Or how he hopefully will. Or how Hebrews 4:12 is seen to divide soul and spirit in so many ways. Or - well, you get the idea. 
Many Witnesses do this. Though, there are many who simply give 'the answer' from the paragraph. That's fine and an important part of picking up 'the pattern' the truth. In time, people find depth in many verses, even if they have not been formally commented upon, and they zoom in there.
But it is never doctrine that gets me going. The essential doctrines of Jehovah's Witnesses have been in place for over 100 years and the things that come up today for at-times intense examination are essentially but footnotes.

Nobody even knew that it was still the king of the north after glasnost. I think there was a published comment once that the identities of those kings was then unclear. The terms have not been used for some time.
No, I don't think it is. What is unthinkable (except by those who do it) is to rebel against them. Everyone knows they are people and can make mistakes. But Jehovah's people also exercise faith, which has been borne out from the oldest times, that God works through humans and does not take kindly to ones that trash them.

Nobody even knew that it was still the king of the north after glasnost. I think there was a published comment once that the identities of those kings was then unclear. The terms have not been used for some time.
No, I don't think it is. What is unthinkable (except by those who do it) is to rebel against them. Everyone knows they are people and can make mistakes. But Jehovah's people also exercise faith, which has been borne out from the oldest times, that God works through humans and does not take kindly to ones that trash them.

It translates into 'El Presidente' in some languages. Hence there is COBE.
It caused me trouble. I do nothing but raz our COBE, and he me,  and we are on good terms. When a new Bethel bigwig came to visit and was staying with our COBE, I said to him at our first meeting: "Are you the hotshot from Bethel who comes down to straighten out our no-good COBE?" Only I didn't say COBE. Inadvertently, I said CO. He got a shocked look on his face and wilted away.
When I realized my mistake I called the COBE by phone and said he had to bail me out. He did - but he said I owed him one or two (or three).

the same way that the brothers owned a branch complex and the russians were not fooled.

I will not forget my first Bible student in the late 1970's - my grandmother who had always attended 'nice' baptist churches. She was much troubled that I was in a religion that didn't believe in the Trinity. I reviewed the doctrine and she said that she had never believed that - all she had meant was that there was a Father and a Son and a holy spirit. She had never imagined that they were the same.

I will not blow off as nothing the theocratic accomplishments I see playing out today. Perhaps I should wait for oceans to part so GB members can walk to wherever they are going, but I will settle for what I see now.
It is not nothing that a people are gathered internationally who are entirely undivided by nationalism, by racism, by social or educational class. It happens nowhere else on any scale. I will not take it for granted and not give credit where it is due.
I will not blow off as nothing that there is one and only one organization that will put a modern Bible without charge into the hands of whoever desires it anywhere. They have to completely circumvent the world's profit-driven distribution channel to do it, inventing their own channel. And in 900 languages, no less. Given time, the Bible translation will approach that figure - you know it will. It is already massive. 
The smooth functioning and meshing of diverse peoples to attain a common and undiluted spiritual goal - there has been no greater worldwide example of 'you received free, so give free.' It doesn't just happen. Somehow God has enabled humans to accomplish it.
Human things are not perfect? Timing has been off? That should be a shocker? Jesus said: "Keep on the watch, but don't overdo it?" I don't think so.
There is fierce opposition today? As though, with a capable leadership, Jesus words would be wrong and the world would love Christians? As though the worse 'wicked thing they would lyingly say' about Jesus' followers is "They woke me up Saturday morning when I was sleeping?" No.
IF Srecko hehehe :))))))) headed up something with anything to show for itself, minus the missteps, I would investigate it closely. The same with our house annointed person. But there is nothing but crying, muttering and bellyaching from all of them - at least they have pointed to nothing of significance. All they can do is cry that the doers are doing it wrong. Until humans are perfect, who can't do that?
Regarding authorization by miracles, Paul said such gifts would pass away. What if he had said it on this forum? What responses would he get? "Well - okay, BE that way if you are going to be. But don't expect anything from us! We're not budging unless we see plenty of razzle-dazzle!"
What we do see ought to be enough.

It is possible you are right. But there was a time not too distant ago that Russia wanted to take a respected place among the world community of nations.

If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If it were all hearing, where would the sense of smell be? But now God has arranged each of the body members just as he pleased.  If they were all the same member, where would the body be? - 1 Corinthians 12:17-19
It is enough that Witnesses can entertain whatever notions they want on these periphery teachings - you are far too hung up on asserting they cannot. What they cannot to is grab hold of the wheel of the bus. Many verses speak to promoting sects and stirring up divisions.
This is not difficult and I cannot understand your harping on this. If you can't accept something, don't accept it. Nobody says you have to shout these things from the rooftops. It is increasingly hard not to take these complaints of yours as the complaints of Korah: 'that is enough of you because all of Jehovah's people are holy.'
People here are searching for the divine/human interface. It is perfectly okay to do if you assume there IS no divine/human interface - that it is all a matter of human politics. Just be honest about it. But if you concede there is one - I am uncomfortable trying to peek between the curtains of the tabernacle into the Holy compartment - which is why I don't go there. And it is not getting caught by the attendants of the priest or even the priest himself that worries me.
 

Too many seem to think these two things are mutually exclusive - growing spiritually and following theocratic headship. I do not. 
Paul spoke somewhere about the pattern of the truth. Be around long enough and you pick up on the pattern. To say to headship: "you're all wet!" is not part of the pattern. There is no biblical precedent for it, beyond an individual yoyo or two like Naman that one must do end runs around. But muttering against theocratic headship on any significant scale is always associated with disaster.
Spiritual growth does not require you butt heads with it. It is better enabled if you do not. I comment frequently in my home congregation. I write a lot. I almost never give "the answer" from the paragraph. I have picked up on the pattern of the truth, and it is not necessary or even desired for a mature one to simply spit out what is in writing. 
Often I am surprised that where I go within the pattern, no one seems to have gone before. Sometimes I am surprised that they stick to what is (to me) dull and do not reach for things more subtle and interesting. Maybe I could set up my own "Institute of Deeper Understanding" but I don't. Others will catch on if it is worth catching. Or it may turn out that I am wrong - or just irrelevant and what intrigues me is just so much mental cabbage.
I am amazed at how many think it is necessary to walk in lockstep. It isn't. That said, I would never blow off as nothing counsel about obedience. Even counsel about hanging out verbally with unsavory ones I do not blow off - I would be much worse without it.