TrueTomHarley

No. I do not think your take is correct. 
There is no way proscecuting authorities are not going to know what religion you came from, and this will make "problems" for them regardless of what you say. That is especially true when young men of that religion routinely refuse military service as they come of age. It won't matter what they say - the fact that they come from a certain religion will cause problems for that religion in the eyes of YU government.
He was probably giving you your highest chance of success, for the Bible is more respected in the country than is the JW religion. Attach your refusal to the highest cause possible if you want to maximize chances of success.
 

It is true that I resist all changes of all types. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. My wife even says that I extend it to:  'If it IS broke, don't fix it.'
That being said, the blue font is not the best choice, IMO. Black makes a better contrast. 

Well, it is what it is. I don't care about any corporate agenda.

Well, it is what it is. I don't care about any corporate agenda.

Well, it is what it is. I don't care about any corporate agenda.

Okay, okay, I admit it. 
It is me in my younger days.
As for the identity of the sheep, it is a bit hard to tell because it is facing away, but I think it is @James Thomas Rook Jr.

Yeah, that's how I interact with the police, too. Can you think of anyone who doesn't? Can you think of any organization that doesn't?
It may change, though. I have offered my suggestion for next year's yeartext: "Salvation belongs to the police."

The scoundrels will all append a B on the front end.

Okay
 
Nowhere
 
Theologian is not a word we generally use. I am not one.
 
I am afraid I do not know where you are coming from, Allen. I think that I would like to. I am not sure of your role in this play.

You are right. Crime is crime. Sorry. If we are discussing backing the dumptruck of toxic waste into the river, it is very important that you post your story of the guy caught littering. 
 
It is not good. No one says otherwise. But it is also not very specific - nor is it rape. If it was, he would have been convicted of it.

I disagree. To the extent your statement is true it is only because media has managed to muddle perception - today,  'rape' is equated to 'too free with the hands' which is equated to 'having investigated it for purposes of discipline/protection but never having done it themselves.'
IMO, it is disloyal to God to not always point this out, regardless of how culpable one may think the modern-day organization is. In this case, the subject truly is a convicted rapist and he was an elder, but that is extraordinarily rare, whereas for the Church, it was a dime a dozen. In a collection of millions of persons, you will find examples of anything. Everybody knows that. JW Elder abuse is essentially unheard of. No large group of anything human has a better record
Having said that, I am not one for beating up on the Church over this. It is too much like rejoicing over another's downfall - regardless of whether they deserve it. It has become public knowledge - I do not have to pile on. If I mention it, it is only a mention. I do not harp on it. Their deeds are between they and God, as are ours.

One thing I like about @AllenSmithis that he does not yield the moral high ground. Why should he?
I will concede that for one brief instant of time it may be that this or that advocate seems more a protector of a child than its congregation organization. But not too long after his or her back is turned, that child is tossed right back into an unprotected cesspool. The world has compiled a list of abusers that is so long it is absolutely worthless to enforcement. Consequently, being put on 'the list' is largely a matter of revenge or public shamimg - not undeserved, but it does nothing to solve the problem of protecting children. To some extent, it has devolved into a job machine and a platform for grandstanding politicians to declare how they are tough on pedophiles.
England's top cop recently recommended all men found with pedophilia on their computers not be prosecuted. It pained him to say it, he said, but the simple fact is that there is so many that police cannot possibly keep up and are distracted from monitoring the real nasty ones - the ones who they say are like Medusa - look at it once, and your heart turns to stone.
All the time, we hear of children abused by persons who were already on the list  - why - they were right down the street! The world chokes on its abusers. For that matter - the world is so nuts - it ought to put every victim on the list as well, or at least on a watch list, for it is common knowledge that an abused one readily becomes an abuser. Completely unfair - but it makes perfect sense for a world that thinks it can snuff out abuse through pedophile registries.
Rapists are the ones who should be aggressively punished. No punishment is too great. As to the rest - look, even someone who recently confessed to being a victim of an extended family member - it probably would not have happened in these days of Caleb and Sophia, who are told: "If anybody tries to touch you - even if it is someone you know and trust ...  and then tell mommy or daddy." An extended family member doing abuse is common. A parent doing it is very uncommon, except in the case of a step-parent. The training of every Witness in the world via the Regional convention would also have gone a long way to prevent her calamity.
Allen is right to never yield the high ground. It is a huge court mess the brothers dealing with and I don't know how it will resolve, but Allen will not allow others to pull the 'righteous' card. Even with this mess, we are more righteous than they. The court cases are a classic example of getting slammed for doing the right thing: monitoring any abuser so that they can  be punished and any other congregations protected by their slipping in and feigning innocence. Nobody else even tries it. Do they have 1 abuser per hundred, or 50 per 100? Nobody knows or wants to know. Only Jehovah's Witnesses have the courage to stand up to a moral outrage and they should not be maligned for it.

When my wife applied to regular pioneer, she was unprepared for the question about objectionable - or is it unsuitable for a Christian? - music. Never one to blow things away, she answered that she does listen to it sometimes. "Well," she explained later to some elders, "if the Beach Boys come on and sing 'Wouldn't it be nice to live together,' I do not turn off the radio. This appeared to satisfy them. "We've never had someone answer this way," they said, looking befuddled.
On the night that her appointment was announced, I approached those elders. "You're making a big mistake! How can you allow her privileges?! She does nothing but listen to rap all day and heavy metal all night! I expected you brothers to straighten her out!"
 

You are right. Crime is crime. Sorry. If we are discussing backing the dumptruck of toxic waste into the river, it is very important that you post your story of the guy caught littering. 
 
It is not good. No one says otherwise. But it is also not very specific - nor is it rape. If it was, he would have been convicted of it.

1950_Defending_And_Legally_Establishing_The_Good_News.pdf
Audio Files:

1978 Hayden Covington Interviewed By Jerry Murray Interview with Hayden C. Covington, former Watchtower Attorney on November 19, 1978. Covington represented Jehovah's Witnesses in several Supreme Court cases dealing with freedom of religion and freedom of press in the 1940s. He was also Vice President of the Watchtower Society from 1942 to 1945. Covington died two days after giving this interview. 

"They Oppose Freedom of Worship," by Hayden C. Covington. Talk given at the 1953 International Assembly of Jehovah's Witnesses"They Oppose Freedom of Worship," by Hayden C. Covington. Audio lecture given at the 1953 International Assembly of Jehovah's Witnesses. At the time, Covington was Chief Legal Counsel of Jehovah's Witnesses and had served as Vice President of the Watchtower Society in the 1940s. Covington helped secure several key legal victories for Jehovah's Witnesses before the Supreme Court of the United States in the 1940s.


Read a copy of Covington's employment resume written after he left Bethel and his death certificate
1977-78_Hayden_Covingtons_Resume_and_Death_Certificate.pdf
When I was in Bethel, I received a copy of Covington's resume and death certificate from a JW in California by the name of Jeannie Sears. She had been Covington's friend and secretary of sorts for a few years before he died and I think they both lived in the same apartment complex. Jean's deceased husband had been a former Bethelite who had been Covington's friend when they both were in Bethel in the 1950s and it's through him that Jeannie met Hayden.

Interestingly, Covington wrote his memoir shortly before he died and shared it with Jeannie. She told me she was horrified when she read what he said about the organization and talked him out of publishing it. Later she watched him burn it in the yard. Jeannie never told me what was in that memoir and probably has died taking Covington's secrets with her to the grave.



Hayden Covington (1911 - 1978)
Hayden Covington was born in Hopkins County, Texas, in 1911. Around the time that he was studying for his law degree, he became involved with the Jehovah’s Witnesses. He defended some Witnesses in the San Antonio area and was eventually invited by the Witness leadership to New York. He joined the organization’s legal counsel in 1939 and served until 1963. In that time as the Witnesses’ attorney, Covington is said to have presented 111 petitions and appeals to the Supreme Court, and he won well above 80% of the 44 cases he brought before the Court. The cases dealt with issues ranging from compulsory flag-salute statutes, to street preaching, to door-to-door literature distribution. Later in his career Covington assisted prize-fighter Muhammad Ali in obtaining a draft exemption as a Muslim minister. Covington’s role as lawyer for the Jehovah’s Witnesses is recounted in Shawn Francis Peters’ Judging Jehovah's Witnesses: Religious Persecution and the Dawn of the Rights Revolution (2002).

“Determined to Keep Close to the Lord”

It was Brother Rutherford’s heartfelt wish that Jehovah’s Witnesses declare the good news without letup. So in mid-December 1941, several weeks before his death, he called together four directors of the two principal legal corporations used by Jehovah’s Witnesses and suggested that as soon after his death as possible, all the members of the two boards be called in joint session and a president and a vice president be elected.

On the afternoon of January 13, 1942, just five days after Rutherford’s death, all the board members of the two corporations met jointly at Brooklyn Bethel. Several days earlier, the Society’s vice president, 36-year-old Nathan H. Knorr, had suggested that they earnestly seek divine wisdom by prayer and meditation. The board members recognized that while the brother elected president would administer the legal affairs of the Watch Tower Society, he would also serve as a principal overseer of the organization. Who had the needed spiritual qualifications for this weighty responsibility in caring for Jehovah’s work? The joint meeting was opened with prayer, and after careful consideration, Brother Knorr was unanimously elected president of the two corporations and 30-year-old Hayden C. Covington, the Society’s lawyer, vice president.

Later that day, W. E. Van Amburgh, the Society’s secretary-treasurer, announced to the Bethel family the results of the election. R. E. Abrahamson, who was present on that occasion, recalled that Van Amburgh said: ‘I can remember when C. T. Russell died and was replaced by J. F. Rutherford. The Lord continued to direct and prosper His work. Now, I fully expect the work to move ahead with Nathan H. Knorr as president, because this is the Lord’s work, not man’s.’

How did the Bethel family members in Brooklyn feel about the results of the election? A touching letter from them dated January 14, 1942, the day after the election, answers: “His [Rutherford’s] change shall not slow us up in the performance of the task the Lord has assigned to us. We are determined to keep close to the Lord and to one another, firmly pushing the battle to the gate, fighting shoulder to shoulder. . . . Our intimate association with Brother Knorr for approximately twenty years . . . enables us to appreciate the Lord’s direction in the choice of Brother Knorr as president and thereby the loving watch-care of the Lord over His people.” Letters and cablegrams of support soon poured into headquarters from around the world.

There was no feeling of uncertainty as to what to do. A special article was prepared for the February 1, 1942, Watchtower, the very same issue that announced the death of J. F. Rutherford. “The final gathering by the Lord is on,” it declared. “Let nothing for one instant interrupt the onward push of his covenant-people in His service. . . . Now to hold fast our integrity toward the Almighty God is the ALL-IMPORTANT thing.” Jehovah’s Witnesses were urged to continue declaring the good news with zeal.

But ‘holding fast their integrity’ was a real challenge in the early 1940’s. The world was still at war. Wartime restrictions in many parts of the earth made it difficult for Jehovah’s Witnesses to preach. Arrests and mob action against the Witnesses continued unabated. Hayden Covington, as the Society’s legal counsel, directed the legal fight, sometimes from his office at Brooklyn headquarters and sometimes from trains as he traveled caring for legal cases. Working with local lawyers, such as Victor Schmidt, Grover Powell, and Victor Blackwell, Brother Covington fought hard to establish the constitutional rights of Jehovah’s Witnesses to preach from house to house and to distribute Bible literature without restraint from local officials.

- Declaring the Good News Without Letup (1942-1975)

As the intensity of house-to-house witnessing increased, however, so did attempts to apply laws to abridge or prohibit it. Not all lands have legal provisions that make it possible to secure freedoms for minorities in the face of official opposition. But Jehovah’s Witnesses knew that the U.S. Constitution guaranteed freedom of religion, freedom of speech, and freedom of the press. So, when judges construed local ordinances in such a way as to hinder the preaching of God’s Word, the Witnesses appealed their cases to the higher courts.

In reviewing what took place, Hayden C. Covington, who had a prominent role in legal matters for the Watch Tower Society, later explained: “Had the thousands of convictions entered by the magistrates, police courts and other lower courts not been appealed, a mountain of precedent would have piled up as a giant obstacle in the field of worship. By appealing we have prevented the erection of such obstacle. Our way of worship has been written into the law of the land of the United States and other countries because of our persistence in appealing from adverse decisions.” In the United States, scores of cases went all the way to the Supreme Court.

Strengthening the Guarantees of Freedom

One of the first cases involving the ministry of Jehovah’s Witnesses to reach the Supreme Court of the United States originated in Georgia and was argued before the Court on February 4, 1938. Alma Lovell had been convicted in the recorder’s court of Griffin, Georgia, of violating an ordinance that prohibited the distribution of literature of any kind without a permit from the city manager. Among other things, Sister Lovell had offered people the magazine The Golden Age. On March 28, 1938, the Supreme Court of the United States ruled that the ordinance was invalid because it subjected freedom of the press to license and censorship.

The following year J. F. Rutherford, as attorney for the petitioner, presented arguments to the Supreme Court in the case of Clara Schneider v. State of New Jersey. This was followed, in 1940, by Cantwell v. State of Connecticut, for which J. F. Rutherford drafted the legal brief and Hayden Covington presented oral argument before the Court. The positive outcome of these cases buttressed the constitutional guarantees of freedom of religion, freedom of speech, and freedom of the press. But there were setbacks.

- ‘Defending and Legally Establishing the Good News’, WTB&TS
How the Governing Body Differs From a Legal Corporation  
ANNUAL meetings of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania have been held since January of 1885. When the ingathering of anointed Christians was underway in the late 19th century, the directors and officers of this corporation had the heavenly hope. In fact, this has almost always been the case.

There was one exception. In 1940, Hayden C. Covington—then the Society’s legal counsel and one of the “other sheep,” with the earthly hope—was elected a director of the Society. (John 10:16) He served as the Society’s vice president from 1942 to 1945. At that time, Brother Covington stepped aside as a director to comply with what then seemed to be Jehovah’s will—that all directors and officers of the Pennsylvania corporation be anointed Christians. Lyman A. Swingle replaced Hayden C. Covington on the board of directors, and Frederick W. Franz was elected vice president.

Why did Jehovah’s servants believe that all the directors and officers of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania should be anointed Christians? Because at the time, the board of directors and officers of the Pennsylvania corporation were closely identified with the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses, which has always been made up entirely of spirit-anointed men.

- Jan. 15, 2001 Watchtower, WTB&TS
References from web to this book

Judging Jehovah's Witnesses

The University Press of Kansas publishes scholarly and regional books that contribute to the understanding of Kansas, the Great Plains, and the Midwest

www.kansaspress.ku.edu/petjud.html
JSTOR: Judging Jehovah's Witnesses: Religious Persecution and the **...**

JUDGING JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES: RELIGIOUS PERSECUTION AND THE DAWN OF THE RIGHTS REVOLUTION. By Shawn Francis Peters. Lawrence, Kan: University Press of Kansas ...

links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0748-0814(2001)16%3A2%3C547%3AJJWRPA%3E2.0.CO%3B2-E
Vol. 10 No. 6 (June 2000) pp. 390-393. JUDGING JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES **...**

JUDGING JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES: RELIGIOUS PERSECUTION AND THE DAWN OF THE RIGHTS REVOLUTION by Shawn Francis Peters. Lawrence, KS: University Press of Kansas, ...

www.bsos.umd.edu/gvpt/lpbr/subpages/reviews/peters.htm
Judging Jehovah's Witnesses: Religious Persecution and the Dawn of **...**

Peters, Shawn Francis Judging Jehovah's Witnesses: Religious Persecution and the Dawn of the Rights Revolution Lawrence: University Press of Kansas 342 pp., ...

findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb3341/is_200006/ai_n8053293
Judging Jehovah's Witnesses: Religious Persecution and

Judging Jehovah's Witnesses: Religious Persecution and the Dawn of the Rights Revolution. From: Journal of Church and State | Date: 1/1/2002 | Author: Smith ...

www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-85033374.html
Persecution of Jehovah's Witnesses in the United States **...**

Judging Jehovah's Witnesses: Religious Persecution and the Dawn of the Rights Revolution. ^ Radio discourse, October 6, 1935 as cited in Jehovah's ...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jehovah's_Witnesses_in_the_United_States
SSRN-Demythologizing the Legal History of the Jehovah's Witnesses **...**

Shawn Francis Peters' Judging Jehovah's Witnesses: Religious Persecution and the Dawn of the Rights Revolution is the most recent, and broadest, ...

papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1005705
| Book Review | The Journal of American History, 88.2 | The **...**

Judging Jehovah's Witnesses: Religious Persecution and the Dawn of the Rights Revolution. By Shawn Francis Peters. (Lawrence: University Press of Kansas, ...

www.historycooperative.org/journals/jah/88.2/br_100.html
UNH Magazine Spring 01--Book Reviews

By Anne Downey '95G. (Book titles are linked to online booksellers. Also check Dimond Library's online card catalog for these titles) ...

unhmagazine.unh.edu/sp01/bookssp01.html
Jehovah's Witnesses: Guardians of Free Expression by Stephanie **...**

... closely enough before, according to Shawn Peters, author of Judging Jehovah's Witnesses: Religious Persecution and the Dawn of the Rights Revolution. ...

docket.medill.northwestern.edu/archives/000039.php

Going big, are you? Here is a fine scene from 'Network.'
photo: beforeitsnews.com

One thing I like about @AllenSmithis that he does not yield the moral high ground. Why should he?
I will concede that for one brief instant of time it may be that this or that advocate seems more a protector of a child than its congregation organization. But not too long after his or her back is turned, that child is tossed right back into an unprotected cesspool. The world has compiled a list of abusers that is so long it is absolutely worthless to enforcement. Consequently, being put on 'the list' is largely a matter of revenge or public shamimg - not undeserved, but it does nothing to solve the problem of protecting children. To some extent, it has devolved into a job machine and a platform for grandstanding politicians to declare how they are tough on pedophiles.
England's top cop recently recommended all men found with pedophilia on their computers not be prosecuted. It pained him to say it, he said, but the simple fact is that there is so many that police cannot possibly keep up and are distracted from monitoring the real nasty ones - the ones who they say are like Medusa - look at it once, and your heart turns to stone.
All the time, we hear of children abused by persons who were already on the list  - why - they were right down the street! The world chokes on its abusers. For that matter - the world is so nuts - it ought to put every victim on the list as well, or at least on a watch list, for it is common knowledge that an abused one readily becomes an abuser. Completely unfair - but it makes perfect sense for a world that thinks it can snuff out abuse through pedophile registries.
Rapists are the ones who should be aggressively punished. No punishment is too great. As to the rest - look, even someone who recently confessed to being a victim of an extended family member - it probably would not have happened in these days of Caleb and Sophia, who are told: "If anybody tries to touch you - even if it is someone you know and trust ...  and then tell mommy or daddy." An extended family member doing abuse is common. A parent doing it is very uncommon, except in the case of a step-parent. The training of every Witness in the world via the Regional convention would also have gone a long way to prevent her calamity.
Allen is right to never yield the high ground. It is a huge court mess the brothers dealing with and I don't know how it will resolve, but Allen will not allow others to pull the 'righteous' card. Even with this mess, we are more righteous than they. The court cases are a classic example of getting slammed for doing the right thing: monitoring any abuser so that they can  be punished and any other congregations protected by their slipping in and feigning innocence. Nobody else even tries it. Do they have 1 abuser per hundred, or 50 per 100? Nobody knows or wants to know. Only Jehovah's Witnesses have the courage to stand up to a moral outrage and they should not be maligned for it.

Some of the silliest people on the planet are celebrities. All of them, really, except our handful.
They lead very atypical lives. They are not subject to the same pressures of everyone else. Their opinions don't matter.

11. Eat plenty of beans

God said to Rookie: "Go down to Nineveh and kick some butt." 
So Rookie proceeded to board a nuclear-armed ship headed for Tarshish and slipped a few nukes into his holster. In time, God sent a big fish to make trouble. "Die, sucker!" Rookie screamed, as he blew the beast to smithereens.
Rookie approached Nineveh and the gates were closed. So he cut them it two with blasts from his guns. King Ninny wet himself as Rookie put a gun to his temple. "You feel lucky today, punk?' he sneered. "Well, do ya?" King Ninny ran to the intercom. "Attention all Ninevites. Mayday! Mayday! Rookie is in town! Get that sackcloth on!
Rookie slammed his gun back into its holster and popped open a nice cool beer to enjoy under the gourd tree. God said: "That King Ninny got those people to straighten out and fly right. I'm not going to smush anyone."
"Oh, for crying out loud!" Rookie cried in disgust. "Are you wimping out on me?"
 

It 'plagues' non-JWs even more, as they have made no progress whatsoever in united declaring the kingdom good news.

It has long been common knowledge that Hollywood was a cesspool but no insider would rat on anyone else. At last the dam has broken and these guys are falling all over themselves to swear, like Sergeant Shultz, that they knew nothiiiinnnnggggg! (some are wetting themselves thinking that they are up next)
When the world at last wakes up to a problem, it swings wildly the other way. In this case rapists are lumped together with harassers, who are lumped together with those whose misdeeds were once called "getting fresh." Few women ever appreciated men getting fresh, I think, but they did not mistake that for rape.
It is similar with widespread condemnation of the founding fathers. Revered for centuries, they are now reviled because they kept slaves, notwithstanding that every agricultural person of means kept slaves at that time - and with no regard for whether they were kindly or vicious administrators.
It is the same with the world's outrage over child sexual abuse, now at full boil. Whenever zealots catch the wave, they invariably apply today's enlightenment to criminalize those of the past, as Alan points out. Sodomizers are the same as those too free with their hands who are the same as those who learned of it but practiced nothing themselves. Notwithstanding that back in my day child protective agencies sent abused children right back into the homes of the parents who abused them, in the naive belief that the abuser could be rehabilitated. It is naive by today's standards, but it was enlightened at the time.
The world's record of protecting children is absolutely dismal. News reports indicate a breathtaking percentage of adults have abused children. That is why the education of children on how to protect themselves is essential, as is the education of parents on how to protect their children. Nobody does that better than Jehovah's Witnesses, who trained every member in the world via last summer's convention. That addresses 95% of the problem. All that remains is to take out the sodomizers. If the world was serious about justice, it would apply capital punishment to such ones, for the common wisdom is that these persons cannot be rehabilitated.

Some stool pigeon ratted on Shadrach, Meshech, Abednego and Rookie. "King Neb, didn't you say that when the whole shebang of instruments clanged, everyone must drool over that idol you set up? What a wise law that is! But Shadrach, Meshech, Abednego and Rookie haven't done it!"
"WHAT?!!" King Neb exploded. "Throw them into the fiery furnace. Stoke it up extra-hot first!!!" 
But as the guards approached, Rookie pulled out his six-shooter. "You forgot to declare this a gun-free zone," he smiled sardonically, and blasted the guards into smithereens - filling them all with gaping holes you could put your fist through.
As he twirled his gun and slammed it down into its holster, all the Jews hailed him as their savior. 'Who needs God, anyway?' they said. 

A local brother with a flair for dramatization used to tell of a first century publisher unknowingly calling on a disgruntled former member. 
"You call yourselves Christlike!" the latter accused. "I was there at that meeting between Paulus and Barnabas. You see those two kids over there? They do not fight like I saw your two 'leaders' fight!" 

Do they? Or do they not remind us of journalists who all day, every day, identify problems for others to fix. And when the fix is in, they point out what is wrong with that, too. It's a great job to have.
 
Possibly. But does it not just as equally provide fuel for those with flame throwers?
I don't think it has worked that way on this forum. People leave with approximately the same level of empathy they had on arrival. It is a fruit of God's spirit (you can probably tease it out of the list somehow) not dependent or necessarily helped by public airing.
When they devise a new Bible training school there at headquarters, they put themselves through it first. This indicates to me that they are not devising material to 'control the masses' - (I can hear some making that accusation now) Instead, they recognize that all are to be 'taught by Jehovah,' themselves foremost. It is a recognition of their own shortcomings, as descendants of Adam, and a renewed determination to seek what is higher.
To whatever extent it is true that the new ones are having a love-in and the old ones fought like cats and dogs, should we attribute it to public discussions? Or to being taught by Jehovah?