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TrueTomHarley

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  1. Upvote
    TrueTomHarley got a reaction from Patiently waiting for Truth in Charles Taze Russell: Dates, Expectations, Predictions, Apologies, Response, Relevance   
    I never thought I would do it. I gave PSomH an upvote (for setting up a question to JWI.)
    True, he thinks he is tearing the cover off the ball with his expose on the rough transition from Russell to Rutherford. He does not know that Witnesses are well aware of this, that it is plainly discussed in the Proclaimers book, for example.
    Still, @JW Insiderhas a feel for this time period, and it will be interesting to see what he has to say and if he deviates from the party line in even the tiniest degree, necessitating that I report him to Bethel.
  2. Upvote
    TrueTomHarley reacted to Patiently waiting for Truth in Charles Taze Russell: Dates, Expectations, Predictions, Apologies, Response, Relevance   
    I think you are having a laugh. But I'm more concerned as to why it is so important to you. Russell wasn't a JW and had nothing to do with the forming of the JW religion. He said that an organised religion was not necessary.  Rutherford it seems, went in opposition to Russell, as it seems Russell didn't want Rutherford to take over. 
    If the Bible Students Association are being truthful then they are the true followers of Russell's works, not JWs.
    Brother Russell Founded the Bible Students, not Jehovah’s Witnesses
    https://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/2011/09/01/bible-students-are-not-jehovahs-witnesses/
    This early Bible Student history book is written by Bro. Ken Rawson, a Bible Student elder who knew more Bible Students from Pastor Russell’s and JF Rutherford’s time than any other Bible Student elder alive today.
    After the death of Pastor Russell in 1916, the purpose of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society changed drastically. Joseph Rutherford, whom Pastor Russell had recently dismissed from his staff, seized legal control of the Watch Tower, dismissed the majority of the Board of Directors, and established dictatorial authority. The Watch Tower became the central head and authority over all congregations willing to yield their sovereignty. Basic doctrines of the “new society” seriously digressed from the teachings of Pastor Russell as the writings of Pastor Russell were discarded. The methods of conducting the evangelistic work were altered. The more sensational digressions, such as refusing blood transfusion and saluting the flag, caught the public’s eye.  But many individuals and whole congregations refused to surrender their Christian liberty or accept the new teachings. As early as 1917, the exodus from the newly declared sovereign headquarters began. By 1918 one-fourth of the Bible Students left Judge Rutherford and remained true to the teachings of the late Pastor Russell.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_Student_movement
    Thousands of members left congregations of Bible Students associated with the Watch Tower Society throughout the 1920s prompted in part by Rutherford's failed predictions for the year 1925, increasing disillusionment with his on-going doctrinal and organizational changes, and his campaign for centralized control of the movement.[2] William Schnell, author and former Jehovah's Witness, claims that three quarters of the original Bible Students who had been associating with the Watch Tower Society in 1919 had left by 1931.[4][3][a] In 1930 Rutherford stated that "the total number of those who have withdrawn from the Society... is comparatively large."[5]
     
  3. Downvote
    TrueTomHarley got a reaction from Patiently waiting for Truth in DEFINING APOSTASY   
    One must not argue with a dodo.
  4. Upvote
  5. Upvote
    TrueTomHarley got a reaction from Arauna in DEFINING APOSTASY   
    Nothing is about anything with you, it seems, other than taking incessant shots at the ones you crazily think have cheated you from your stage and position. 
    As stated, reading that endless letter will take months, since practically a reread of the whole Bible is required, for the absurd number of verses cited.
    Never have I seen a greater harvesting of scripture to gather such a bumper crop of decayed fruit into the storehouse.
  6. Downvote
    TrueTomHarley got a reaction from Patiently waiting for Truth in DEFINING APOSTASY   
    You crazy women, if they were mighty they would tell Russian cops to lay off and the latter would wet themselves for doing what they have done.
  7. Haha
    TrueTomHarley got a reaction from Anna in DEFINING APOSTASY   
    Well, I can’t speak for the GB, but I can speak for the clandestine branch that I head as a very very very important JW leader. When I received my copy of the letter, my heart sank right down, not just into my toes, but beyond them, and started rolling down the aisle.
    Immediately I called a meeting with my fellow clandestine leaders  When I read it to them, like Shaphan the Book of the Law to Josiah, they all proceeded to weep and rip their garments. 
    They ripped them to such an extent that upon leaving the building, they were arrested for public indecency. 
    I’m sorry, try as I might, I cannot take this ridiculous ultimatum to every living breathing thing in God’s organization more seriously. I am reminded of that Star Trek scene in which Mr. Spock promises Dr. McCoy to give his proposal all the attention it deserves. He pauses but a split second, then resumes his duties.
  8. Haha
    TrueTomHarley got a reaction from Anna in DEFINING APOSTASY   
    I am a JW leader, a very very very important one, let me tell you, so of course I received one.
    But since it quotes every verse in the Bible for support, I will not be able to respond until I read the entire Book again, and since I have many other things to do (that is alway true of us leaders) it will be a few months before I can respond to it.
    Seriously, what is wrong with the crazy woman (answered my own question), composing a tongue-lashing letter so astoundingly long and having it 
    Self-important, anyone?
  9. Downvote
    TrueTomHarley got a reaction from Patiently waiting for Truth in Did everyone notice another book added to the Watchtower Library "CD" and the WOL?   
    Are you sure this is not a matter of “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? Kicking against the goads makes it hard for you?”
    Seriously. I respect you for saying this, for many unhappy people will nonetheless maintain that they are happy, I think yielding to peer pressure that would equate being unhappy with being a loser. When you read relatively high percentages of those who say they are overall happy AND relatively high percentages of those who say they are consumed with anxiety, stress, and depression, to the point of medical treatment, you know something is amiss.
    Nor would I ever suggest that all of Jehovah’s people are happy in their present life—all creation is sighing and groaning, is the way Paul puts it—but they get by with what humanists would regard as “cheating,” keeping their gaze on the things above instead of the things below, keeping their eye on the prize when tears and pain will pass away, with earth restored to paradise, looking to the resurrection hope, keeping their eye ‘simple’ in the present system, and so forth.
    Of course, the GB encourages that view and builds upon it because the Bible encourages and builds upon it. It is integral to Paul saying he has learned the secret of how to be content regardless of his circumstances, in times of abundance and in times of want.
    Seriously, what are you doing here, running down the GB, making that a significant project in your life? What is the point of it? Are you not kicking against the goads? 
    The core doctrines of JWs all hold up in their eyes. If I recall, you have questioned what the core doctrines are, as though you would include matters of immediate timing among them. I’ve thought you must be disingenuous in the question, for every Witness knows what they are, and for that reason I don’t go there. But maybe you are sincere in the question, having been away so long, and surrounded by those on a crusade to undercut, significantly contributing to it yourself—maybe all that has served to muddy the waters on what any Witness has no problem with, confusing the ‘core doctrines’ with interpretations of just when the end will come.
    Look, everyone knows that looking into the future is not a piece of cake—why keep harping on it? Witnesses are content that the bros taking the lead are doing the best they can, are overall conducting themselves honorably and in fear of God. Most importantly, on matters of advertising and safeguarding the core doctrines, they are doing splendidly. No one else is representing kingdom interests better. Never is it that ALL the core teachings are represented elsewhere, and with the majority of faiths, very few indeed are represented, even none at all. Why do you keep harping on the ones who have succeeded and are succeeding in this? Particularly if you suggest that such a course may lead ones to a place you occupy, a place where you are not very happy and have not been for a long time? What’s the point of it? 
    It may be that you are dissatisfied, not the with 20% (as Arauna puts it) but with the 80% Maybe you think the Bible itself is but the word of men, and that to impute divine inspiration into it is nonsense. It is far easier to understand your critical course in this event. It is far more intellectually honest to acknowledge this as your basis for discontent. If so, these are the matters to grapple with, if that be possible, the 80%, rather than taking shots at the forecasting ability of those taking the lead in the JW organization. 
    Come now, attend to these things if you can. The point is, should we die in this system of things, that we should die “old and satisfied with days.”
  10. Haha
    TrueTomHarley got a reaction from Pudgy in DEFINING APOSTASY   
    I am a JW leader, a very very very important one, let me tell you, so of course I received one.
    But since it quotes every verse in the Bible for support, I will not be able to respond until I read the entire Book again, and since I have many other things to do (that is alway true of us leaders) it will be a few months before I can respond to it.
    Seriously, what is wrong with the crazy woman (answered my own question), composing a tongue-lashing letter so astoundingly long and having it 
    Self-important, anyone?
  11. Upvote
    TrueTomHarley reacted to Arauna in Did everyone notice another book added to the Watchtower Library "CD" and the WOL?   
    The Watchtower study for this weekend is so encouraging. It shows that Jehovah forgives all who worship him.  We must not condemn ourselves for what we are because the ransom covers it. Many Witnesses have sinned and often feel unworthy because of it .....but it encourages all to only focus on today and the future.  Forget the past.  It it what you do from now on which will define your future. 
    The slave have taught us all the core teachings we need to get into the new system. They are imperfect humans and made mistakes, but they too, they need to only focus on the present and the future.  It is their relationship with Jehovah at this moment and the future which defines them - not the past. 
     
  12. Upvote
    TrueTomHarley got a reaction from Pudgy in Did everyone notice another book added to the Watchtower Library "CD" and the WOL?   
    Are you sure this is not a matter of “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? Kicking against the goads makes it hard for you?”
    Seriously. I respect you for saying this, for many unhappy people will nonetheless maintain that they are happy, I think yielding to peer pressure that would equate being unhappy with being a loser. When you read relatively high percentages of those who say they are overall happy AND relatively high percentages of those who say they are consumed with anxiety, stress, and depression, to the point of medical treatment, you know something is amiss.
    Nor would I ever suggest that all of Jehovah’s people are happy in their present life—all creation is sighing and groaning, is the way Paul puts it—but they get by with what humanists would regard as “cheating,” keeping their gaze on the things above instead of the things below, keeping their eye on the prize when tears and pain will pass away, with earth restored to paradise, looking to the resurrection hope, keeping their eye ‘simple’ in the present system, and so forth.
    Of course, the GB encourages that view and builds upon it because the Bible encourages and builds upon it. It is integral to Paul saying he has learned the secret of how to be content regardless of his circumstances, in times of abundance and in times of want.
    Seriously, what are you doing here, running down the GB, making that a significant project in your life? What is the point of it? Are you not kicking against the goads? 
    The core doctrines of JWs all hold up in their eyes. If I recall, you have questioned what the core doctrines are, as though you would include matters of immediate timing among them. I’ve thought you must be disingenuous in the question, for every Witness knows what they are, and for that reason I don’t go there. But maybe you are sincere in the question, having been away so long, and surrounded by those on a crusade to undercut, significantly contributing to it yourself—maybe all that has served to muddy the waters on what any Witness has no problem with, confusing the ‘core doctrines’ with interpretations of just when the end will come.
    Look, everyone knows that looking into the future is not a piece of cake—why keep harping on it? Witnesses are content that the bros taking the lead are doing the best they can, are overall conducting themselves honorably and in fear of God. Most importantly, on matters of advertising and safeguarding the core doctrines, they are doing splendidly. No one else is representing kingdom interests better. Never is it that ALL the core teachings are represented elsewhere, and with the majority of faiths, very few indeed are represented, even none at all. Why do you keep harping on the ones who have succeeded and are succeeding in this? Particularly if you suggest that such a course may lead ones to a place you occupy, a place where you are not very happy and have not been for a long time? What’s the point of it? 
    It may be that you are dissatisfied, not the with 20% (as Arauna puts it) but with the 80% Maybe you think the Bible itself is but the word of men, and that to impute divine inspiration into it is nonsense. It is far easier to understand your critical course in this event. It is far more intellectually honest to acknowledge this as your basis for discontent. If so, these are the matters to grapple with, if that be possible, the 80%, rather than taking shots at the forecasting ability of those taking the lead in the JW organization. 
    Come now, attend to these things if you can. The point is, should we die in this system of things, that we should die “old and satisfied with days.”
  13. Upvote
    TrueTomHarley got a reaction from Pudgy in How would solid, controvertible evidence of Extraterrestrial Aliens affect your Theology?   
    I mean if they screw up as much as we do, they’ll need some provision to smooth over their screwups. And the ransom provision is for us. We ain’t sharing.
    On the other hand, if they came all the way from outer space to find us, and not we them, then perhaps they don’t screw up and don’t need the ransom so badly.
  14. Haha
    TrueTomHarley got a reaction from Patiently waiting for Truth in Want to know what the Four Horsemen Represent?   
    They’ve used a phrase or two in common, that’s all. 
    It would be a remarkable change of m.o. if he was BroRando. Changes from CC to BtK to Allen to whoever—the “new” persona is instantly recognizable. BroRando is significantly different.
    For one thing, CC was seldom very interested in offering anything. He just was here to shoot people and their ideas down. Say what you will about BroRando, he certainly is interested in offering stuff.
  15. Downvote
    TrueTomHarley got a reaction from Patiently waiting for Truth in Did everyone notice another book added to the Watchtower Library "CD" and the WOL?   
    Yeah, what about that @Witness? Do you believe in any of the core teachings? Which ones & which ones not?
    Imagine! A person should be one this platform ceaselessly for 5 years and it should be necessary to ask her that.
  16. Upvote
    TrueTomHarley got a reaction from Pudgy in How would solid, controvertible evidence of Extraterrestrial Aliens affect your Theology?   
    Nah. “In all the inhabited earth” will suffice. Whatever gig they have going up there on whatever planet, they’ll just have to work it out themselves.
  17. Upvote
    TrueTomHarley got a reaction from Thinking in Want to know what the Four Horsemen Represent?   
    They’ve used a phrase or two in common, that’s all. 
    It would be a remarkable change of m.o. if he was BroRando. Changes from CC to BtK to Allen to whoever—the “new” persona is instantly recognizable. BroRando is significantly different.
    For one thing, CC was seldom very interested in offering anything. He just was here to shoot people and their ideas down. Say what you will about BroRando, he certainly is interested in offering stuff.
  18. Upvote
    TrueTomHarley got a reaction from JW Insider in Want to know what the Four Horsemen Represent?   
    They’ve used a phrase or two in common, that’s all. 
    It would be a remarkable change of m.o. if he was BroRando. Changes from CC to BtK to Allen to whoever—the “new” persona is instantly recognizable. BroRando is significantly different.
    For one thing, CC was seldom very interested in offering anything. He just was here to shoot people and their ideas down. Say what you will about BroRando, he certainly is interested in offering stuff.
  19. Upvote
    TrueTomHarley got a reaction from Pudgy in Did everyone notice another book added to the Watchtower Library "CD" and the WOL?   
    It is not as though the digital world is their invention. They adapt to it. They’d be dinosaurs not to. Everyone fixes glitches on the fly now. Should they be the only ones to buck that trend? 
  20. Upvote
    TrueTomHarley got a reaction from Pudgy in Did everyone notice another book added to the Watchtower Library "CD" and the WOL?   
    You’ll just have to learn the hard way, I see.
    It actually is, for an emergency worker. 
    When you shoot yourself in the foot, you just grimace as you patch the wound and carry on. You don’t resolve never to shoot again.
    When de Vienne & Shultz ran their early book past the organization, it was received without comment. She speculated as to why this might be. One possibility she raised was that they “are incurious as to their own past.” Tamp it down just slightly and I would agree. They don’t do past too much there, they do the future. 
    Should they “lead by apology,” which is all the rage today? They don’t want to find themselves in the shoes of Lot, issuing counsel only to find that his sons-in-law think he is joking. 
    It may have been the same organization back then, but it was different people. There’s no sense in tearing your hair out over what they did or didn’t do. I’m amazed people have the time to persevorate over the old stuff as much as they do. That’s not to say I disapprove of it. In fact, I somewhat envy it. But there is so much forward and in the present that limits overly-ruminating on the past. They’re humans and humans can screw up. Since the beginning of time it has been so. It was so in Bible times and can be easily seen in the scriptures. Acknowledge it, and move on to meet the present.
    Exactly.
  21. Upvote
    TrueTomHarley reacted to Arauna in Did everyone notice another book added to the Watchtower Library "CD" and the WOL?   
    Their core teachings are without fault and the 20% ( of the not so important things) make them crash and burn?.  Hash judgment indeed.  You may lose everlasting life because you want super perfection.  You would have judged Jesus I m sure.  Luckily, every individual's righteousness comes from Jehovah and not from human opinion.  
  22. Thanks
    TrueTomHarley got a reaction from Arauna in Did everyone notice another book added to the Watchtower Library "CD" and the WOL?   
    You’ll just have to learn the hard way, I see.
    It actually is, for an emergency worker. 
    When you shoot yourself in the foot, you just grimace as you patch the wound and carry on. You don’t resolve never to shoot again.
    When de Vienne & Shultz ran their early book past the organization, it was received without comment. She speculated as to why this might be. One possibility she raised was that they “are incurious as to their own past.” Tamp it down just slightly and I would agree. They don’t do past too much there, they do the future. 
    Should they “lead by apology,” which is all the rage today? They don’t want to find themselves in the shoes of Lot, issuing counsel only to find that his sons-in-law think he is joking. 
    It may have been the same organization back then, but it was different people. There’s no sense in tearing your hair out over what they did or didn’t do. I’m amazed people have the time to persevorate over the old stuff as much as they do. That’s not to say I disapprove of it. In fact, I somewhat envy it. But there is so much forward and in the present that limits overly-ruminating on the past. They’re humans and humans can screw up. Since the beginning of time it has been so. It was so in Bible times and can be easily seen in the scriptures. Acknowledge it, and move on to meet the present.
    Exactly.
  23. Like
    TrueTomHarley got a reaction from xero in How would solid, controvertible evidence of Extraterrestrial Aliens affect your Theology?   
    What about my photo of Devil’s Tower, you flea-bitten mutt? Where’s the like for that? It’s from the movie, after all.
  24. Haha
    TrueTomHarley got a reaction from Anna in Charles Taze Russell: Dates, Expectations, Predictions, Apologies, Response, Relevance   
    I see you haven’t visit my gift shop to peruse my new line placard, sweatshirt, and accessories offerings: “2034 is the Door!”
    I actually didn’t know you could take down your own thread. Comments, yes, but not the whole thread, and even comments only for a limited time. There are some turkeys of mine that long ago would have bit the dust had I known that.
  25. Upvote
    TrueTomHarley got a reaction from Anna in Charles Taze Russell: Dates, Expectations, Predictions, Apologies, Response, Relevance   
    This is called a signature. I don’t manually type it out each time, you know. It is time for an update. Thanks for reminding me. I don’t recall what is the free preview on TTvtA, but the entire ebook work of Don’t Know Why is free.
    Despite the 200 glitches, and I suspect once I release it I could fine-tune for 200 more (but I won’t), I am very very pleased with it—a vast improvement over that turkey Dear Mr. Putin, which I am embarrassed ever to have unleashed. The new book has four sections: 1) Assault—the ban and its immediate repercussions, 2) Apologia—reasons for the ban are nowhere explicitly stated by Russian, authorities, so I have stated some, as well as how they might be defended, 3) Testimony—the best defense is an offense, someone said, and so these are chapters in which I witness, and 4) Endurance—aftermath of the ban, which took a darker turn than anyone would have predicted, but also put Jehovah’s name and kingdom into the international spotlight. 
    Nor are parts 2 and 3 divorced from Russian context. They are both illustrated by Russian examples, making the book a cohesive whole. It has garnered a review already (the more the better, any author says). It is not unmitigated praise, but it is fair. I like it. Straight “5” reviews only indicate you have a lot of friends, anyway. I like honest criticism—in this case it is primarily concerned with reliance on AI for translation, and certain clunky writing that maybe the 200 corrections will alleviate . Although the seemingly clunky AI translating of Bro Sivulsky is actually his own remarks word for word, he speaking English as a second language. So it’s good. Remember, I said in my introduction, I am an American who still thinks Ilya Kuriaken of the Man from UNCLE was a pretty good Russian super spy, even though I recall Pravda or someone saying that he was not and how could those ridiculous Americans think so.
    sigh….Nor would any other books be written about the Bible by anyone, nor would anyone else ever comment on it, nor would anyone ever teach it, or expound upon it, or interpret it. Anything other than a direct quote would be taboo.
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