Great Crowd

[The Librarian]

Added to the JW Calendar:

 

[Carmen Erwin]

Yeah!?

[moggy]

This is indeed a fascinating subject to ponder, and it involves, I believe an understanding of three basic elements of exegesis.

1. Who actually are the Great Crowd?

Are they synonymous with any other group, such as the "other sheep" that Jesus mentioned at Jo 10:16? Personally, I believe this to be highly unlikely, partly because of the way that Jesus referred to these "other sheep". He said:"I have other sheep..." To me, the use of the present tense indicates, that whatever Jesus meant by this expression, he was indicating that these were in existence in the first century when He and His contemporaries were alive. If Jesus had said, "I will have other sheep..."  He would then be anticipating a future appearance of this group.

1.The timing of the Great Crowd.

The Great Crowd, however are restricted to an association with something that Rev 7:14 calls The Great Tribulation, which is understood by many to be an eschatological cataclysm of biblical proportions, and which has not occurred yet. So whenever this Great Tribulation occurs in the future, then, and only then, will this Great Crowd emerge as an identifiable group.

3. What does "come out" of the Great tribulation mean?

This is probably the most perplexing aspect in our exegesis. Does it mean they "survive" the GT alive, or does it mean that they are "martyred" at this time and are rewarded with heavenly life in the very presence of God as a consequence?

Unfortunately there is no pat or even simplistic answer. We all stand before the Word of God as ourselves in pursuit of scriptural certainties, but which may prove to be more elusive than any dogmatism allows. Thus, while we ponder its meanings, we must allow the Holy Spirit to enlighten and clarify. Since the Bible does not make itself absolutely clear, the answer lies in interpreting its allusions. And here again, there are a multiplicity of these, because, after all, we are now seeing in a mirror only hazily. [1 Cor 13:10] I believe that has been done deliberately  so that we may learn from each other and tolerate dissent with grace and charity.

My own personal view, for what its worth, is one that is held by those who are referred to as "Dispensationalists",and  is that the future GT will indeed have survivors, millions and ,millions and even billions of them. These will be the despised, downtrodden, marginalized, exploited, intimidated,and tyrannized, all of whom are believers and who became such during the GT and thus are innocent. They will enter the post Armageddon earth, to begin anew, although not yet given eternal life. They are in contrast to the proud, tyrannical, and oppressive, who will be done away with.

The Great Crowd, however are believers in Christ who, during this time, are martyred for their integrity and who, as a consequence are said to have washed their robes in the "blood of the Lamb". They are rewarded with eternal life in God's presence. It is for this reason that an oft-quoted epithet, "Tribulation Saints", is used of them. 

Just thinking allowed.

 

 

 

 

     

[HollyW]

The location of the great crowd is given to us in Revelation 7:9  as "standing before the throne and before the Lamb".

Up until 1935, the WTS believed and taught that the great crowd was in heaven, a vast group of believers said to be not quite as faithful as the 144,000, but still heaven-bound, spirit-anointed, emblem-partaking, witnesses of Jehovah.

Now, I have heard some JWs call this belief  "crap" and "baloney", but the WTS says Russell and his followers who believed this were being blessed with spiritual insight by Jehovah to rediscover these Bible truths. (see http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102012144 ) And even after Russell's death and after Jehovah is said to have cleansed Russell's followers and appointed them in 1919 as the faithful slave of Matthew 24:45, they still believed this.

But then in the early 1930's there was a third class of believers invented by the WTS President at the time, Joseph Rutherford.  He called them Jonadabs, or Johanadabs, and identified them as a group of believers whose future destination was not heaven but earth.  During a speech Rutherford gave at a 1935 convention, he asked those of this group to stand up.  Then he pointed to them and announced that they were the great crowd.

Think about that for a minute.  Do you wonder why there might have been a sudden hush at the convention?  It's said there was one.  Probably from an intake of breath from those who had believed prior to this that they were members of the great crowd and had stayed seated when those who believed they would be on earth had stood up at Rutherford's invitation.  Or maybe from the whooshing sound of the doors of heaven closing in their faces.

 

[HollyW]

22 hours ago, moggy said:

This is probably the most perplexing aspect in our exegesis. Does it mean they "survive" the GT alive, or does it mean that they are "martyred" at this time and are rewarded with heavenly life in the very presence of God as a consequence?

Being that the great crowd is before the throne in heaven, how did they get there without dying?

[moggy]

Quote

Being that the great crowd is before the throne in heaven, how did they get there without dying?

 

 

 

I was taking into account a possible Watchtower explanation which reduces "standing before the throne" to a metaphor, and which sees this Great Crowd actually being on earth even now, and after the GT, as survivors. My submission acknowledged the possibility of a Watchtower interpretation without actually commenting on the veracity or otherwise of such a view. I leave the Watchtower followers to do that.

The text at Rev 7 does not actually specify whether this Great Crowd are survivors or martyrs. A certain element of interpretation is required, as long as this interpretation keeps the integrity of the text in balance.

I then explained my own preferred view which showed, unambiguously, I hope, that "coming out" of the GT, clearly meant being martyred for the cause of Christ on earth during the Great Tribulation, and a translating to heaven, to be before the throne in a very real sense

The actual survivors, are those of humanity who are alive at this time  and who are blessed with entry into a post apocalyptic earth, to renew and repopulate it. I believe that True Christians will be "caught up" to be with the Lord before the outbreak of the Great Tribulation - 1 Thess 4:17

I had to restrict my allusions to what I considered points that  did not detract from the subject of the post and which was explaining the identity of the Great Crowd. 

I hope that clarifies any ambiguity on my part.