The Flood: Global or Local Event

[Ann O'Maly]

On 9/2/2016 at 10:36 PM, AllenSmith said:

The Flood argument of a global flood or local event was brought by evolutionist and creationist. .... [et cetera, et cetera]

Allen, your various objections to the idea of a localized flood are dealt with here:

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/localflood.html

The author is a Bible-believing Christian.

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EDIT 

To put this new thread in context, the discussion about Noah's Flood and whether or not it was global, came from here: 

My argument was that the antediluvians mentioned in Matt. 24:39 literally 'did not know' when the Flood was going to take place which supported Jesus' comments that his second presence wouldn't be predictable either. Allen then made several objections to the idea of the biblical Flood being localized. This is where this new thread picks up.

[Arauna]

This is why I study timelines and events in the Bible - to see how the event fits in with the final purpose of God  - the theme that is intrinsically running throughout the Bible.  Remember I said (somewhere above) that the Bible is the history, as well as a plan, of how God is putting things in place to eventually restore the earth to its original condition before Adam sinned? Slowly but surely God has, through the past millennia, been working/unfolding this (I call it the restoration project).  And he gave us an excellent timeline.  He even indicates how many world empires would rule if one studies Daniel and Revelation together.

Nevertheless, God is allowing man to rule the earth to prove that we cannot rule the earth - but he only steps into mankind's affairs when his project to restore the earth, at the end of Satan's rule, is jeopardized.   The flood was one of these times.  There was rebellion on earth and in the heavens (angels).   Wicked angels down came to earth in disobedience and with wives, produced a hybrid race of children that would jeopardize the purpose of God.  There was a mixture of genetics.

How is this disastrous?  Well we all know that when totally different species mix, the children's children become infertile. A good example is the mule.  It was God's will to still fill the earth with humans (not with a mixed breed of highly violent beings - Nephilim means: fellers of men).  It was his purpose, that at the end of his 7th day (his rest day), for the earth will be filled with people who (most will be resurrected) will truly benefit from Christ's ransom sacrifice.

This would mean that these bad angels had to be flushed out - and this event would also serve as a warning for future generations.  Can one flush out a materialized, wicked angel, with a local flood? I would say .... no.  After the flood - these wicked angels were put in Tartarus.... they could not materialize again. 

The earth was flatter than it is at present, that is, before the flood.  Many huge underwater cities exist all over the world that come from a pre-flood period.  We find that many of the highest mountain peaks contain shells and fish.  Boulders sit on high mountains that seem to have been placed there from another location. Patterns of boulders often attributed to glaciers could be from powerful water..... (There are so many geological features that one can attribute to a mighty flood - but alas!  I forgot, scientists are not allowed to believe in the Bible. This would take away their credulity.  They can rather believe in the exponential miracles and fairy stories which are presented in evolution - or as famous DR. Dawkins (the high priest of the faith of evolution) said: beings from another planet seeded life on earth.) 

Take one bucket of water and feel how heavy it is. .... now apply this weight to the amount of water which was on the earth during the flood.  The water band above the heavens broke and the bible says that water "under" the earth also came out. This water was so heavy it pushed up mountains and made very deep valleys - even in the sea. There must have been many plates under the earth that moved from the water pressure.  The pressure from the water and the dead plant material created coal under the ground (pressure removed all oxygen) and may even have created the oil with the fossils.

Yes, there are some small  issues that we cannot fully answer now..... But the Bible has a perfectly logical timeline and the only book with a perfectly logical solution to mankind's problems - the only ideology that can truly work..... mankind must willingly exhibit unselfish, self-sacrificing love and adhere to one just standard of morality.  The world is so divided right now and nations look to their own interests and refuse to work together to fix things. And even if they wanted to work together - they all have different standards of morality, ideologies etc. - they will never be able to work together  in a sincere fashion.  The quality of life on earth is going downhill fast! 

I can believe in a miracle when it fits into a greater plan that is totally logical...towards the outworking of a purpose.  But when one has to just believe that millions of miracles happened such as in the evolution theory - for no purpose at all -  it spawns the type of disrespect for life that Hitler, Paul Pot, and Stalin displayed, who believed that the superior being/survival of the fittest must prevail.  I was interested to read that Hawkins himself said something to this effect:  If mankind was not here to appreciate the beautiful things on earth - then it is as though they never existed.  We are the only creatures on this earth that can truly and intelligently appreciate everything around us.

The message of God is clear.  He is the one that will remove the wicked and he will let the meek stay behind to rebuild this earth and build a new human society based on the principles that He will give us.  Adam chose' independence' from the "good and bad" of god (and mankind is suffering under our independence) but under Jesus' rule mankind will willingly choose to follow the standards of god because they will see the wonderful benefits it will bring. And their peaceful loving lifestyle will bring glory to the creator - as it should have from the beginning..

[Ann O'Maly]

1 hour ago, AllenSmith said:

You use the phrase constructive criticism, Explain the need for Noah to place birds in the Ark if the event was local.

This was answered in the link I gave you. Read it. I don't want to deviate too far from the topic.

I don't understand your disdain for creationists as JWs are themselves creationists since they believe in creation.

Anyway, back to the point. Could the antediluvians calculate when the Flood would be? Yes or no?

[Ann O'Maly]

23 hours ago, Arauna said:

The earth was flatter than it is at present, that is, before the flood.

Response: http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CH/CH570.html

23 hours ago, Arauna said:

Many huge underwater cities exist all over the world that come from a pre-flood period.  

Therefore, they were submerged in 2370 BCE, right? Name the cities that were submerged in the 3rd millennium BCE.

23 hours ago, Arauna said:

 We find that many of the highest mountain peaks contain shells and fish. 

Response: http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CC/CC364.html

23 hours ago, Arauna said:

(There are so many geological features that one can attribute to a mighty flood - but alas!  I forgot, scientists are not allowed to believe in the Bible. This would take away their credulity. 

Carol A. Hill's a geologist, a scientist and a Christian. Why not examine what she has to say about the biblical Flood?

http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2002/PSCF9-02Hill.pdf

23 hours ago, Arauna said:

Take one bucket of water and feel how heavy it is. .... now apply this weight to the amount of water which was on the earth during the flood.  The water band above the heavens broke and the bible says that water "under" the earth also came out. 

Yeah, think about water, its weight and pressure, and how it undermines the notion of a pre-flood 'water vapor canopy.'

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CH/CH310.html

23 hours ago, Arauna said:

Yes, there are some small  issues that we cannot fully answer now.....

And there are issues that can be answered with understanding how physical processes work, like plate tectonics, and fossilized seashells and fish on mountains, and how water behaves in different circumstances ...  

[Ann O'Maly]

20 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

What in the world does the flood account have to do with the second coming of Christ?

  Keep up, Allen.

Matthew 24:37-39 (ESV)

37 For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking,marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, 39 and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

Yeah? With it now? 

Quote

[Mount Everest, Mount Ararat, blahdeblah] 

Can your science prove that? Yes or no?

See the links I gave to Arauna.